Tension in the house

[Angel]

It seems really strange to me that Lizzie would have felt the need to entertain her friends upstairs in the spare bedroom. Most normal victorian behavior at that time would have seen visitors in the parlor, which it was supposed to be used for. The parlor in Lizzie's house had doors which could be closed for privacy and keeping talking noise to a minimum. So why didn't she use it? Did she feel so paranoid that she had to separate her social life so completely from the rest of the house? Was she afraid someone would eavesdrop? Was she forbidden to use that part of the house? Was she afraid her father would barge in and embarrass her? The whole thing is really bizzare.

[Tina-Kate]

Sorry, off topic---but I LOVE your new Avatar!

[DJ]

Angel,
Given the tension, as you put it, in the house, there may have been an unofficial "turf war," with a well-understood "line in the sand" drawn. That is, the downstairs may have been Abby's and Andrew's domain. Certainly, Lizzie didn't clean down there. Maybe she feared being barged in upon while entertaining.
Also, Lizzie may have simply felt there was more privacy upstairs, and that she was therefore more comfortable entertaining up there.
If Andrew, Abby, and Bridget were milling about downstairs, I doubt she would care to "receive" there.
Also, the parlor may have been limited to Andrew's "preferred" business associates. If Bridget was hustling out the latest batch of mutton broth in the hot kitchen, he would have no doubt preferred discussing business in the parlor.
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Of course, all this begs the question: How much company was there, aside from Andrew's business associates (and supplicants)?
Did Abby receive regularly?
One gets the impression that Lizzie enjoyed getting out of the house and making calls elsewhere, and that Abby may have had a similar predilection. Emma may have been the most homebound. Her sense of social propriety and resignation to spinsterhood seemed well-defined during the post-trial years, whereas Lizzie seemed a much more social creature.
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Also, how much "mixing up" was there in the days of yore, before Lizzie stopped calling Abby "Mother"?
Did the isolation exist then, or was there a time when Lizzie did indeed receive friends in the parlor, or was it always "off limits" and prioritized toward Andrew (and Abby's) desires?
I, as most children and even teenagers, was never encouraged to "hang out" in the living room. My guests either came to the den, or my room, as per which place was most comfortable (and private) at the time. I didn't want them (or me) accused of messing up something in the "good room"!

[Angel]

The sense of social propriety the girls were raised in in a victorian atmosphere makes it all the more strange to me that the entertaining would be done in what was considered the private family part of the house. That's why I think the tension was so high that the priority of convention was put aside.

As for worrying about messing things up in the "good room".. they weren't teenagers- they were grown women who were approaching middle age. They should have been treated as equals by that time.

[Angel]

Sorry, off topic---but I LOVE your new Avatar!

Thanks! I love my new little guy so much. (even though he has eaten my cell phone recharger cord three times. I was so embarrassed to go into the phone store this last time to tell the clerk that I needed yet again a new charger. The little twirp has outsmarted me already by learning how to get into places he shouldn't, and he's only 5 months old and 8 1/2 lbs.)

[DJ]

On further reflection of memories of testimony-- wasn't the parlor pretty much Abby's domain, as far as cleanup was concerned? Did Bridget even ever clean up there, or was it just Abby?
If so, and in spite of "The Girls'" ages, perhaps it was understood that they were not to bring in their friends and "mess it up." After all, they had no household duties downstairs.
The parlor may have been the one place (besides Mr. and Mrs. Borden's bedroom) where Abby reigned as "mistress of the house."
It would have been just like Lizzie to break some prized figurine or vase in the parlor and blame it on one of "Father's enemies" or the same intruder who committed the theft upstairs.

[Yooper]

Another question comes to mind, if the parlor was recognized as Abby's domain, how intimidated were Emma and Lizzie? Were they content with their three room "apartment"? Maybe they were beginning to feel a bit confined.

[Allen]

Trial testimony of Bridget Sullivan page 197:

Q. Can you tell who took charge of the parlor sweeping, dusting and cleaning of it?
A. Miss Lizzie in the summer.



Inquest testimony of Emma Borden page 108:

Q. Do you have, yourself, any particular duty in connection with the house?
A. Some things I always did.

Q. What were they?
A. I always took charge of the parlor, my sister and I, we always took charge of the guest chamber and our own rooms.

Q. That is, you and your sister did that?
A. Yes sir.

Q.Not your separate duty, but yours and hers?
A. I did most of it, sometimes she assisted.

[Yooper]

I think at that time a parlor was not used very often. The family would have used the sitting or living room rather than a more formal room such as the parlor. If that was true for the Bordens, then the territorial concept falls apart because Lizzie and Emma were simply avoiding the rest of the family by avoiding the sitting room.

[DJ]

Allen,
Thanks for digging that up-- and, we're left to wonder:
Who's telling the truth (as usual???)
Bridget doesn't mention Emma's involvement at all.
Also, the morning of August 4th, Morse testifies that Abby was running her feather duster over everything, so:
If Lizzie were in charge of the parlor during the summer, why would Abby be dusting it?
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To get back to Angel's point: I think people entertain their friends where they feel most comfortable, and maybe Lizzie and Emma felt most comfortable upstairs-- away from whatever was going on downstairs, and far enough away to talk comfortably without fear of being overheard.

[Allen]

I think it might have been a combination of things. I sort of lean towards Emma and Lizzie knowing they were going to live under Andrew and Abby's roof until they both passed. They were not going to have their own private homes. They also did not get along with Abby and may not have wanted to have to include her in any visits they received from friends. So having their own sitting room upstairs took care of two things, they had a semblance of privacy, maybe made them feel as if they did have some form of private domain, and kept Abby relegated to the downstairs.

[snokkums]

She might not have wanted to run into her . Just wanted to see her as little as possilbe.

[augusta]

I used to think it was weird, too, for 'the girls' to see their friends up in the guest room. But then I read somewhere (I am sorry, I forgot the source) that it was a normal thing to do back then. I was surprised.

[Kat]

Thanks for the testimony, Missy.

Maybe Bridget was clear about the girls in charge of the parlour in summer because that was when the elder Bordens went to stay at Swansea? The girls might use it when Mrs. Borden was away for a while. She was not seen by Alice hardly ever when Alice would come to call, I think...

Y'all, please read this and tell if she is saying she does not see Abbie in the guest room when she visits, or that she does not see Abbie at all?

Prelim
Alice Russell

Q. When you made calls, you called on them there in the guest room?
A. Yes Sir; that was their sitting room.

Q. The sitting room used by Lizzie and Emma?

Page 293

A. I think so.

Q. So far as you had the opportunity of seeing?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Is that where you usually saw them, there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you often see Mrs. Borden there?
A. No Sir.

Q. Ever see her there?
A. Not recently. I do not remember what I have seen in all the years that I have been there.

Q. Within a year or two?
A. I do not think I have.

Q. Is that where you usually made your calls, in the guest chamber?
A. Either there, or in the girl's rooms.

Q. The girls rooms were, we have already ascertained, next to each other?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. How often have you been in the habit of calling there?
A. Just as it happened.

Q. Once a year or once a week?
A. Just as it happened; if I had reasons to go there two or three times a week, I went. If I did not, perhaps it was two or three weeks I did not go; just as it happened.

[Kat]

As for Lizzie possibly breaking something and blaming a visitor: I keep recalling that comment by a friend that Lizzie was all about honesty and that she would rather tell the truth and take the consequences rather than lie. Also that she hated someone talking behind her back- she thought that was two-faced.

I know...lying about killing? Gee Whiz! Gosh Golly Darn!

[Kat]

This is Mrs. Cluny, a family relation, talking about how Lizzie might act around company. It speaks to the question of the elder Bordens having folks over. (Rebello, Lizzie Borden Past & Present pages 176-7):


"Was Queer / Not Insane / A Second Cousin Described Some of Lizzie Borden's Oddities," Boston Herald, August 7, 1892: 2.

A Herald reporter interviewed Mr. William [B.] Wilcox and his sister, Mrs. [Ella F.] Cluny, distant relatives of the Andrew Borden, who lived in the Globe section of Fall River. Mrs. Cluny spent a week with the Bordens and did some housecleaning for them. She said she was always treated as a family member and never witnessed any ill feelings between Lizzie and Abby. "She never acted as though she disliked her stepmother, rather she seemed to show as much regard for her as I believed it possible for her to show anyone."

The reporter asked Mrs. Cluny if she had any reason to believe Lizzie to be insane.

Mrs. Cluny said, "No, I always thought she was pretty level headed. She was peculiar,though. She was odd, very odd. I have heard a number of persons speak of it." The reporter asked her to tell about Lizzie's oddities. Mrs. Cluny said, "There were times whereby Lizzie would not speak to members of the family who were visiting the Bordens. She would act as though she did not see them, and go right through rooms where they were without speaking a word to them." Then, again, she would be extremely pleasant and would act as though there was nothing too much for her to do for anyone ... A great many members of the family had the same experience."

As the interview continued, Mrs. Cluny stated Lizzie had a "great habit of staying in bed in the morning. I have seldom seen her at breakfast. She would almost invariably remain in bed until 10 o'clock or so."

Mrs. Cluny provided the reporter with a vivid and revealing account of Lizzie's personality. He asked if Lizzie was "irritable or would she fly into a passion." She said, "Lizzie never impressed her as being very passionate. She seemed cold blooded ... she seemed to mope and sulk. I never heard any words, and couldn't tell what the trouble was, but I knew it was generally considered as one of Lizzie's odd streaks."

The issue of insanity surfaced when the reporter asked, "Would you be surprised if it turned out now that she was insane?" Mrs. Cluny replied, "Well, yes, I should. Her odd streaks never lead me to think anything like that. She never acted in any way like an insane person - that is, like what I call a maniac. She didn't do things wrong, and wouldn't get excited and hysterical. She just seemed to have spells of moping and sulking, and I call it her condition. Then there never was any insanity in the family that I know of."

When queried about Andrew Borden and his "closeness in money matters," Mrs. Cluny said, "Oh, no, there was no reason for it. He wasn't close in family matters. He was a sharp businessman and looked after his property, as all the Bordens do, but he treated his children and his wife well. She [Abby] was a splendid woman. He gave the girls most of what they have, although their grandfather left them something."

[Yooper]

Thanks for the testimony, Missy.

Maybe Bridget was clear about the girls in charge of the parlour in summer because that was when the elder Bordens went to stay at Swansea? The girls might use it when Mrs. Borden was away for a while. She was not seen by Alice hardly ever when Alice would come to call, I think...

Y'all, please read this and tell if she is saying she does not see Abbie in the guest room when she visits, or that she does not see Abbie at all?

Prelim
Alice Russell
Q. When you made calls, you called on them there in the guest room?
A. Yes Sir; that was their sitting room.

Q. The sitting room used by Lizzie and Emma?

Page 293

A. I think so.

Q. So far as you had the opportunity of seeing?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Is that where you usually saw them, there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you often see Mrs. Borden there?
A. No Sir.

Q. Ever see her there?
A. Not recently. I do not remember what I have seen in all the years that I have been there.

Q. Within a year or two?
A. I do not think I have.

Q. Is that where you usually made your calls, in the guest chamber?
A. Either there, or in the girl's rooms.

Q. The girls rooms were, we have already ascertained, next to each other?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. How often have you been in the habit of calling there?
A. Just as it happened.

Q. Once a year or once a week?
A. Just as it happened; if I had reasons to go there two or three times a week, I went. If I did not, perhaps it was two or three weeks I did not go; just as it happened.

The phrasing for the exchange about "Is that where you usually saw them, there?" and "Did you often see Mrs. Borden there?" indicates the questions refer to the guest room, there is no other implication that I can see. If the term "them" implies Lizzie and Emma, why would the term "there" not imply the guest room?

[DJ]

From what Allen posted, Emma is saying that she takes care of the parlor cleaning, regardless of the season, and Lizzie assists her, although Emma is clearly assigning herself the greater role.
That is in marked contrast to Bridget's testimony, which excludes Emma entirely, and then assigns a mere seasonal role to Lizzie.
If Emma were cleaning the parlor summer, winter, fall, and spring, then surely Bridget would have noticed.
Someone is lying. Surprise, surprise!
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As for Lizzie being a paragon of honesty-- I'm of the mind that she robbed Abby of two of her most treasured possessions, the fan and the gold watch, so it's no big leap (for me) to think that she might blatantly dispose of something else that Abby held dear.
Now, I don't think she would have blamed a "real" person, just an "imaginary" one, such as "Father's enemy" and/or "the thief" who burgled the upstairs (as stated in my earlier post). However, I do believe her quite capable of the action itself.
But, I agree: I don't think she would have blamed Bridget and certainly not Emma. To that extent, she was honest. However, that does not preclude her from creating mayhem, large and small.
Yes, it's one of the fascinating aspects of Lizzie's personality that she could possibly have committed the "inside theft" and a double homicide, and not have blamed anyone "real" (just the thief who entered by the cellar, then "Father's enemy"-- perhaps she wanted people to believe they were one and the same, which they well could have been!), except perhaps her Uncle Hiram, but not until after he died, and she made the enigmatic comment about never being able to prove her innocence, thereafter.
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Anyway, going back to the tension in the house: Lizzie's and Emma's entertaining upstairs falls in behind their never taking meals with their father and stepmother. I think we can all agree there was tension in the house.

[Kat]

Thanks for your interpretations you guys. When I read Alice- sometimes she is not answering clearly enough for me:
like-

Q. Ever see her there?
A. Not recently. I do not remember what I have seen in all the years that I have been there.

As for the "fan..." What fan? And Lizzie said the person who did not get along with Andrew might be Hiram, yes, but before he died, she said that- that was in her inquest testimony

50(7)
Q. Beside that do you know of anybody that your father had bad feelings toward, or who had bad feelings toward your father?
A. I know of one man that has not been friendly with him; they have not been friendly for years.
Q. Who?
A. Mr. Hiram C. Harrington.
Q. What relation is he to him?
A. He is my father's brother-in-law.

[Yooper]

Alice Russell did seem to have trouble with her memory. In the above quote responding to "Ever see her there?", she addressed the question directly with "Not recently." That covered recent events, but she generalized the answer to address the "ever" part of the question by citing the limitations of her memory rather than answering specifically about having seen Abby in the guest room. It still boils down to "I don't remember" rather than "No", but it seems to imply any and all events over the years, Abby in the guest room among them. It does tend to soften the answer "I've never seen Abby in the guest room", if that was indeed the case. If true, that answer would imply a rather high degree of hostility between Abby and the girls.

I get the idea that Alice's memory was highly selective. She didn't "remember" the dress burning incident until the grand jury was nearly finished.

[Allen]

One thing that has always intrigued me about Hiram Harrington is the fact that he used to live in the same house as the Borden's on Ferry Street. He was living with them in the Ferry Street house when Emma was about 19 according to Census records. This would be an age for Emma where he would definitely have been able to observe the true relationship between Abby and Emma. It's too bad he never offered any details on record of what life was like there.

[Tina-Kate]

Hiram & Lurana may have been living at Ferry Street during the time Emma & Lizzie owned it as well.

[Kat]

You mean before the murders or after they inherited the property?

Didn't Rebello find them somewhere else during the time the girls owned the place (from Oct 1887 to July 1892)? Freetown, I think. We should check city directories if we can't find it in Rebello.

[Kat]

The newspaper stated that Lurana gave a deposition to the inquest authorities, and we don't have that. I do agree that Hiram's take on the Ferry Street living conditions would be invaluable!

[Harry]

You mean before the murders or after they inherited the property?

Didn't Rebello find them somewhere else during the time the girls owned the place (from Oct 1887 to July 1892)? Freetown, I think. We should check city directories if we can't find it in Rebello.

Rebello has this on page 30:

"Removed to Assonet (Freetown), Massachusetts, in 1887. It is interesting that Hiram moved the same year Andrew deeded Emma and Lizzie the Ferry Street property. ..."

Odds are he did not live there when the girls owned it as they would have only owned it 3 months in 1887. He moved back to Fall River in 1890.

His alleged interview where he bad mouthed Lizzie occurred on I believe the 6th of August some 3 days before Lizzie's inquest testimonies. She probably used that opportunity to get revenge by including him in her suspicions.

Emma gave some interesting inquest testimony regarding her uncle Hiram on page 111:

"Q. I did not hear the answer, if you did make one, to the question I put, whether you knew of anybody that was on bad terms with your father?
A. There was one man he did not speak to.
Q. Who was that?
A. Mr. Harrington.
Q. A connection of his first wife?
A. No Sir, his sister’s husband.
Q. Did that extend to his sister as well as the husband?
A. No Sir.
Q. She was on good terms with the family.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Came there to visit?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He did not come?
A. No Sir.
Q. He did not come to the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. But she did?
A. Yes Sir. He has been to the door to call my sister or I.
Q. He was not particularly on bad terms with you or your sister?
A. No Sir."

He didn't sound like he was exactly fond of Lizzie in that interview he gave.