Finding My Victorian/Edwardian Past

[Tina-Kate]

My father was adopted, so his roots are unknown. My late mother, bless her, was a bit muddled. Unfortunately, her own mother was very secretive about the past. I grew up not knowing much about my roots.

Sorting thru mother’s things I found some of my past. One of my uncles is doing our geneology. I’m going to share the following photos with him. In turn, he’s going to pass on some facts, dates, etc. I wept when I found these. They are my starting point---messages from the past.

My maternal Victorians/Edwardians were a mysterious lot. My great grandparents were named Martha & Arthur Holmes. They lived in a place called Manor Park, a suburb NE of London England.

The oldest picture is Arthur Edward Holmes. Judging from the collar and pince-nez, this is around 1900. With that mustache, he would have fit right in on the FRPD. Look at those hands---I doubt he was a laid-back kind of guy.


Circa 1915, here is young May Holmes (daughter of Martha & Arthur) holding my grandmother (Muriel).


My oldest photo of Martha Mantell Holmes is approx 1917. She’s pictured with her son Jack and daughter Muriel. Martha was born between 1872-1873 (she would have been a contemporary of Nance O’Neil). Note more pince-nez.


The only other photo I have shows Martha with her 2nd husband, Jack Snow. The dark haired woman on the right is Florence Boreham (a great great aunt), and the young man is Martha’s son Jack. I think this must be the 1930s. Wish I could see the whole of this craftsman house!



Last is Martha & John’s tombstone. If she was 81 in 1954 & her husband was 67 in 1956, that means she was 16 yrs older than her 2nd husband. Way to go, great grandma!




There are mysteries with these people. We do not know where Martha came from. My grandmother (Muriel) claimed Martha’s mother was “a witch”---I translate that to mean she was psychic. She believed they came from Wales. We do not know whether Martha & Arthur were divorced or she was widowed or both. (Divorce of course was a big scandal in Edwardian times). There’s a question of the paternity of my grandmother & her younger brother Jack. Amazingly, Martha would have been in her 40s when my grandmother & her brother were born.

Anyway, my uncle has some info that may shed some light. My investigations continue…

[Kat]

That's a nice-looking bunch of people, TK!

Oh you do love a mystery! But when it's one own family--it must be odd.

[mbhenty]

Whoa Tina:

Please forgive me for my choice of words but the photo of your grandfather is spooky. I could pass for your grandfather. He looks just like me. (at least when I was younger)

I showed the photo of Mr Holmes to my girlfriend and she broke into a surprised and nervous laugh. She was fascinated by the resemblance.

He looks like my brother.......

I have always worn my mustache real long and in the early seventies I wore it almost as long as your grandfather.

My mustache was always a big hit at parties I attended in the 70s. Hippie friends of mine would sit inebriated from smoking the wrong type of cigarettes and marvel and comment on how long my mustache looked. It would take me a while to try and divert their attention back to the lava lamp.

Thanks for posting the photos. Wish you luck on your search.

[Tina-Kate]

Whoa Tina:

Please forgive me for my choice of words but the photo of your grandfather is spooky. I could pass for your grandfather. He looks just like me. (at least when I was younger)...

Too funny...esp when none of these people resemble me in the least.

I was the only one of her descendants to get my grandmother Muriel's eye color, tho.

[Tina-Kate]

MB---perhaps we're long lost cousins!

I was just thinking...in my 1st novel (written eons ago), the heroine discovers a picture of an ancestor & she looks just like her.

Too funny!

[mbhenty]

Yes, who knows TK.

My grandfather was from the Madeira Island. Madeira was a famous vacation spot for the English even in the middle and late 1800s.

I just showed my sister the photo of your grandfather and she was almost convinced that it is me, stating, "If reincarnation is a fact of life that is you in another time". She couldn't believe it.

Too, too Funny.........

[Tina-Kate]

...Madeira was a famous vacation spot for the English even in the middle and late 1800s.......

Hmmmm...

[Tina-Kate]

OK MB, this gets more coincidental.

My Uncle Eric has a wealth of info, tho he doesn’t seem to have assimilated it very well in his head. Anyway, during our delve into his records, he said, “Here’s a few of Arthur Holmes’ poems.”

“You’ve GOT to be kidding me,” sez me.

(I didn’t mention to Uncle Eric this thread. It’s too WEIRD to explain, plus we were both swapping info & needed to focus).

So, here is one of A. E. Holmes’ poems---

...I just showed my sister the photo of your grandfather and she was almost convinced that it is me, stating, "If reincarnation is a fact of life that is you in another time". She couldn't believe it.

Too, too Funny.........

You’re welcome. Gee, I wish someone would unearth MY past life! Eeesh.

[Tina-Kate]

Ooops. Almost forgot:

Arthur Edward Holmes

b. September 4, 1872, London
d. March 6, 1925 (only 52, died of a heart attack)

So, from the looks of things this puts his picture at approx 1900 as guessed.

His parents were John William Holmes (7 June 1841-20 May 1902) and Elizabeth Jane (Ryan) Homes (21 Oct 1841 - 21 Dec 1915).

Both sides were of Irish blood (a surprise!), the Holmes clan coming from Dublin in 1828.

Arthur was the 4th of at least 7 children. A sister & brother both died before the age of 10. There were 4 other brothers who survived.

Temperance was strong in the family. Arthur was a Methodist lay-preacher and his day job was a postal worker.

He had a very tragic life from what I've learned...& I've learned quite a lot.

[Tina-Kate]

Now my oldest picture:

Elizabeth Jane Ryan (circa 1860), mother of Arthur. She was born in Plymoth, England:



Tombstone of William & Elizabeth Holmes, and their lost children Beatrice & Charles:

[Tina-Kate]

Restored photo of my great grandmother, Martha Mantell Holmes, with my grandmother Muriel & Martha's son Jack:



(or how I spent some of my birthday money)

[Tina-Kate]

I've found out I have a (slight) Jack the Ripper connection.



In 1888, the Holmes family lived only a few neighborhoods (about 2 miles) away from Whitechapel in a district called Bow.

Boy, would I have loved to been able to speak with all these people!

[Susan]

Tina-Kate, that picture with the tombstone for the lost children is heartbreaking. Because of the question marks after the month and day I assume the children went missing that day? Do you know what had happened?

That outfit that your great grandmother, Martha, is wearing is what I envision our Lizzie wearing during the later years of her life. I imagine Lizzie wanted to be stylish, but, I can't imagine an older Victorian woman giving up her longer skirts. Thats great that the photo has been restored, I've been trying to get my mom to do the same with our vintage family photos.

[Tina-Kate]

Hi Susan,

Those aren't question marks. Beatrice died 18th Dec 1884 & Charles died 16th July 1884. The th's are underlined & superscripted, so they may look like question marks. I can't tell what the figure is beside Dec, but it must be some way of showing a short form for December. We don't know how they died, but childhood diseases were pretty commonplace.

The family had at least 7 children, 5 of whom lived to adulthood.

My great grandmother probably made that outfit. In one of Arthur's letters I have, he refers to Martha as "an expert needlewoman".

I really wanted that photo restored & my uncle wanted a copy too. Earlier in the thread it shows the original...it's severely water damaged from a flood in my grandmother's basement during the 70s. My mother had said everything was lost in that flood...so I was overjoyed to find this picture!

The restoration was really expensive. I had them done 5x7 & it cost $130 + tax...YIKES!

[Susan]

Thanks, Tina-Kate. My bad for trying to look at this site without my reading glasses. I saw question marks and thought it was the same date. I imagined that the children had disappeared that day and were never seen again, leave it to my overactive imagination!

Yes, the price is prohibitive, hence my mother's hesitation. But, these photos are torn and creased and it would be a shame to lose a bit of family history over money. When I could afford to do it, she wouldn't let me do it, she doesn't want to let them out of her sight. Whats a girl to do?

[Tina-Kate]

Yes, my mother didn't want her photos let out of her sight too, which is why it unfortunately meant her passing away before I could have them (even copies!). This also gave me leverage/access to my uncle's geneaology info.

Unfortunately, back in the late 70s 1 of my 4 uncles went to art school & took a lot of the old family photos & never brought them back. This I think is what made my mother & her brother so possessive.

You could try perhaps scanning them yourself & experimenting with restoration?

[mbhenty]

Yes, admirable past and great images Tina.

Thanks for sharing them.

Not all of us have such documented connections to the past.

Would it not be wonderful if one could transport across time rather than across distance and have ourselves transported and meet these ancestors, meet them in their youth and perhaps discover and learn more of who we are and how we got where we are, or who.

[Tina-Kate]

I'm completely obsessed with this at the moment.

I knew next to nothing...but now am learning something new almost daily.

This past weekend, I learned my female line (Mantell) is derived from Mantl, which is Jewish. It's Yiddish for cloak or cloak maker. And, there is a whole history of Jews in Wales.

I'm a veritable Heinz 57...without even having any knowledge of my father's side. It's fascinating.

[Tina-Kate]

:Would it not be wonderful if one could transport across time rather than across distance and have ourselves transported and meet these ancestors, meet them in their youth and perhaps discover and learn more of who we are and how we got where we are, or who.

Absolutely! The more I find out about these people, the move I'd LOVE to talk with them!

[augusta]

Fascinating, Tina-Kate! The resemblance mb states of Arthur to himself is a bit chilling. What a huge right hand Arthur has! I'd hate to get punched by him.

Good for you for taking the money to restore that photo. It is beautiful. Martha was a beautiful woman. I liked her hair in the photo.

Thank you for sharing the photos - and the poem that Arthur wrote! It's great! Do you know if he wrote other poems? This one you posted is so good, it leads me to think this wasn't his first.

Congratulations on your ancestor finds! I thought all of mine were lost (especially my Russian side), but someone found out who my great grandfather was in Russia, along with some precious records.

Have you considered going to ancestry.com? They have a world-wide search membership. And a free 14-day trial.

I was thinking 'Jack the Ripper' times, then read your relatives lived not far from Whitechapel. If you ever found letters they wrote, maybe they talked about the murders in them. Oh, yeah - to be able to talk to them. Well, maybe you can in an afterlife.

[Tina-Kate]

Thank you for sharing the photos - and the poem that Arthur wrote! It's great! Do you know if he wrote other poems? This one you posted is so good, it leads me to think this wasn't his first.

I have 3 of Arthur's poems. The one I scanned/posted was the longest. I'm sure there must be/have been more, as another letter I have talks about how he was known in the family for his poetry.

My uncle has pretty much run thru ancestry.com. Once you run out of names...eg. people don't live with their elderly parents (not on the census records) you get stuck. Of course, you also hit snags with a female wife whose name is JONES. That's one of the places we are stuck...there must have been a billion Jones in Wales since time began!

[augusta]

Wow - you might find a lot of Arthur's poems some time. (BTW, feel very free to post his other poems you have. )

Oh my. Jones! Of all the luck.

I suppose there is not a way for you to get the old family photos back that - was it your uncle? - absconded with?

[Tina-Kate]

We think he may have included the photos in some artwork. He's been a kind of transient guy & it's probably long gone.

O, BTW...we did solve the mystery of my grandmother's parentage. She was the last of the Holmes children. When Martha left, she took Muriel with her...she was not even 2. Her younger brother was sired by Martha's 2nd husband...that is what caused the break-up.

Unfortunately, Muriel never knew her real father (tho she knew her siblings) & assumed her step-father (Jack Snow) was her real father. Aunt May's correspondence was the clincher for clearing that up. Jack Snow's birth was registered as Holmes (Martha was still married) & unfortunately for him, he was told he was adopted

Martha married Jack only after Arthur's death.

It's really sad parents back then would not tell their children the truth. I think things like that did more harm than good. Not to mention confusion to those of us born generations later!

[Tina-Kate]

Here are the 2 short poems by Arthur. No idea who crossed out his name or why…



Invoice for Arthur’s funeral, March 1925. I wonder if Lizzie had a similar hearse?



Arthur bought himself a burial plot back in January 1908 (I have the purchase document). His father, John William Holmes, had died in 1902 & Arthur bought a plot for himself in that same cemetery. A few weeks earlier, Arthur & Martha’s son Arthur Jr. (aka Sonny) died on December 26th at the age of 7. Perhaps Arthur Sr. felt his own mortality?

The invoice is made out to H. E. Holmes. That would have been Herbert Edmond Holmes, one of Arthur’s older brothers.



Great Auntie May’s wedding, Sept. 4, 1926. May married on Arthur’s birthday. By all accounts, the Holmes children were extremely fond of their father. The young man beside May (2nd from right) is Eric Vernon Holmes, only surviving son of Arthur & Martha. He was 3 yrs older than my grandmother. His daughter Dorothy provided us with so much of our lost Holmes info!



That has to be the handsomest minister I ever saw (2nd from left in back).

Hard to believe that little girl hiding in the bridesmaid’s skirts must be an elderly lady now if she’s still living!

Those dresses look just like clothes I wore in the 80s!

I met Auntie May only once when I was 9. She was a lovely, soft-spoken lady. Her Victorian house was pristine. I remember silvery blue wallpaper and delicate furniture arranged in vignettes. (Usually the Brits are inclined to clutter---myself included). She served us tea & petits fours on fine china. All very impressive to a 9 year old.

[Tina-Kate]

...
Oh my. Jones! Of all the luck...

That would be my great, great grandmother...Martha Mantell's mother.

Her name was Elizabeth Jones. She was from Montgomery, Wales. She's the one everyone referred to as "a witch".

So check it out: Witch. Elizabeth. Montgomery. TOO funny! Isn't life weird?

[Tina-Kate]

Another Great Grandfather, Arthur Alfred Boreham (1882-1961). When I 1st saw this picture, I thought, “He looks like a lovely man.” Sure enough, all reports confirm this. He owned a butcher shop in Essex, England.



Both my great grandfathers were named Arthur, both my great-great grandmothers were named Elizabeth. Strangely, I used both names for characters in my 1st book without knowing they were family names. Cool.

[Tina-Kate]

Not Victorian, nor Edwardian, but the next generation. I love these pictures! My mother Hazel & her brother David, 1939.



My mother Hazel, her father Eric Ernest Boreham (son of Arthur Alfred above) & her brother David. 1940s---their dad had come home from the war.



These old photos & the new info I’ve found have become my most treasured possessions. Most of them I didn’t even know existed before this year. I’m gradually getting everything scanned & put up on Photobucket to have them “safe”.