Did anyone know?

[snokkums]

I have often wondered about this. Did anyone know about all turmoil between Andrew, Abby and the girls? I know in the Victorian era everyone was fairly tight lipped and noone questioned what went on behind close doors, but the familly had to have visitors. Someone had to have seen something or at least think something was was wrong. They weren't exactly a very cohesive close family. Did anyone think it was odd that the family never took meals together or spoke to Abby? Or did anyone notice?

[Tina-Kate]

OK, some kind soul has to help me out with the exact sources & quotes. (Me being away from my source material).

There are quotes from Abby's friends & family that gave negative info. re the "girls" & their relationship with Abby.

I don't think anyone ever commented about the fact they all didn't usually eat dinner together, tho...except Lizzie in her Inquest testimony. Or does Emma say anything? (I'm having a senior moment)

[1bigsteve]

Aside from Bridget, I don't really know. Some relatives probably and Lizzie might have confided in a few of her friends. Others may have suspected something was going on. Family trouble in those days was kept close at home. Now days people smut up their family members in books and on world-wide TV.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Yooper]

Didn't Mrs. Bowen say something about a conversation she had with Abby on Monday or Tuesday before the murders, in which Abby said something about "they have taken my key", referring to her front door key? There may have been a few people who were aware of turmoil in the household, but there was a reluctance to spill the beans. Mrs. Churchill agonizes over having to "tell all" in a police interview among the witness statements some four days after the murders. I expect Abby's sister knew a few things, and Bridget was probably aware of any turmoil first hand. There may have been several others who had heard things through gossip, but that wouldn't bear repeating.

In any case, I doubt if anyone who was aware of turmoil within the Borden household thought it would lead to murder. I think the reason it would have been kept quiet after the murders is that no one wanted the responsibility for putting the noose around Lizzie's neck.

[diana]

Bridget is an important witness regarding this. No one else had the opportunity to really know what went on behind closed doors on Second Street as well as she did. This is some of her testimony as to the family interaction.

"Q. You never saw anything out of the way?
A. No, sir.
Q. You never saw any conflict in the family?
A. No, sir.
Q. Never saw the least, --- any quarrelling or anything of that kind?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. And during the whole time that you were there? You were there two and a half
years, I think you said?
A. Yes, sir, two years and nine months." (Trial,255)

...............................................

"Q. I am talking now of Thursday morning when you heard Mrs. Borden and Lizzie talking together?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then they got along congenially, did they?
A. Yes, sir, as far as I could see.
Q. And talked pleasant?
A. Yes, sir, as far as I could see. When Mrs. Borden talked to them, they talked to her." (p.257)
-------

[Referring to the Inquest] "Q. Mr. Knowlton was there asking you questions, was he not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you answer this, 'Did you know of any trouble between Miss Lizzie and her mother?' and say 'No, sir, never a word in my presence'?. . . (p.258)


And further in reference to Bridget’s inquest testimony:
“Q. "Did she [Lizzie] always eat at the same table with Mr. and Mrs. Borden?" And your answer: "Always did eat dinner and supper when she was in the house.
A. Yes, sir; she ate the meals when she was in the house.
Q. That is so, is it? "They always ate together when she was in the house, except when she was out on an errand." Is that so?
A. Yes, sir; they always ate at the same dining-room.
Q. Always ate together in the dining-room?
A. Yes, sir." (p. 265)

[Yooper]

That last quotation is interesting. Robinson was trying to establish that Lizzie and Abby took meals at the same table at the same time, while Bridget's inquest testimony didn't quite get him there. Eating a meal while the other was in the house doesn't put them at the same table at the same time, regardless of who "she" is. Always eating in the same room doesn't imply simultaneously, one might eat later than the other. He finally led her successfully into "'together' in the same dining room" with the last line.

[Kat]

Thanks for the testimony, Diana!

Yes Morse is asked about Lizzie's eating habits at home, as well. Anyone can check him?
And yes, there's a post recently by moi where I put Mrs. Cluny's impressions- if you can find that hereabouts, snokkums- and also Mrs. Tripp has an old tale to tell of the two of them (Abbie & Lizzie) as well as does Hiram Harrington talk about family relationships.
Do you know where to look, snokkums?
You might be better at searching this Forum than I!