Lizzie & Alice Russell

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:53 pm

I've been reading about Alice Russell. It took me by surprise (and I don't know why really) that Alice worked as a bookkeeper, then teacher asst., then the head of the sewing dept. at the school.

Always focusing on Lizzie, I just took it for granted that she would be friends with others like herself. So it must have been strange for Alice wondering why Lizzie didn't work, and for Lizzie it must have seemed funny that Alice had to.
Not just that, Alice's mother was a nurse in Fall River.

I'm curious how they became friends, Lizzie becoming a friend with one of the "working class." It seems in Victorian times that there was a definite class distinction and that most people only associated with others in their class.

What does everyone else think? or does anyone know how they became acquainted?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:06 pm

Wasn't Alice actually Emma's best friend, and Lizzie's pal by default?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:13 pm

Yes, Nadzieja:

From everything we read we discover that Lizzie was very direct, ridged and strong headed. Not the sort of person you would think would make friends quickly or easily. This may leave us to think that Alice was an easy sort, a kind and friendly person. After all, opposites attract.

And then again, if I know my Borden history, Alice lived in the Kelly house next door to Lizzie for a while. Becoming friends would be in the cards and may have been in Alice's nature.

No?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:24 pm

I was under the impression that Alice was Emma's contemporary in age, and Alice lived in the Kelly house for a time. I guess it might be of some importance to know when Alice lived there. The age differences between the three might have some bearing on the question. If Emma and Alice were in their teen years, Lizzie would have been the kid sister.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:26 pm

Well, there was only a fairly small difference in the ages of Mrs. Churchill, Emma Borden, & Alice Russell. Mrs. Churchill was born first, in 1849, then Emma in '51, closely followed by Alice Russell a year later.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:14 pm

Another consideration is that Second Street was not the Hill. I imagine Emma and Lizzie would have grown up with few of those to whose social status they aspired. Especially when they were younger, I expect they had friends in their own neighborhood. Perhaps a few friendships carried over when they became adults.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:21 pm

Len told me that Alice lived in the house next door for 14 years. The Kellys only moved in in 1891. I am not sure the years that Alice lived there or if there were others before the Kelly family. Afterwards, Alice only lived on Borden St, still easy walking for Emma and Lizzie to keep up visits. Seems to me that Lizzie confiding that story the night before the murders places Alice in a very close confidante position, not to mention asking her to stay in the house after the murders.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:43 pm

Emma had a interesting take on the friendship between Lizzie and Alice. This was her trial testimony (p1570). Of course this was after Alice had spilled the beans regarding the dress burning.

"Q. Miss Russell was a friend of Miss Lizzie's, was she not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. An intimate friend?
A. No, sir.
Q. A calling friend?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that came to see her quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One that she went to see quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On excellent terms?
A. On good terms.
Q. No lack of harmony between them at all?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Were they also associated in church work together?
A. No sir, never.
Q. She and Miss Russell didn't go to that church?
A. Miss Russell went to that church, but they were not associated in church work at all."

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:49 pm

Sort of makes you wonder, then why Alice was selected on the night before the murders to be the recipient of the big story, why she was sent for immediately when Dr. Bowen was out Thursday, and asked to remain in the house for a few days after.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:57 pm

Is it just me, or is Emma essentially saying in that passage, “Well, yes…yes indeed they were friendly, but not quite so much.” Strikes me as a tad odd…she seems to be walking a tightrope thin as a hair on that point.

I love the way the question of the church is tossed in there, perhaps delicately suggesting that Alice (churchgoer though she was) just might be a heathen on the sly.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:52 pm

I don't think that Lizzie and Alice's "class" was so far apart. While we know Lizzie and Emma never held a paying job, I think they fairly easily associated with working women. I think you might find Lizzie being friends in later life with other working women as well.

The Andrew Borden's were more middle class than anything, living in a lower middle class neighborhood, with working folks and professionals (lots of doctors) living in close proximity.

I may be wrong about the social strata in my answer here, but there were better places to live without moving to the hill, and there were definitely worse places to live without living in mill housing.

Don't you become friends with your neighbors? I did as a kid and even today, to some extent, become friendly with folks around me.

When I lived in my apartment in Florida, I was great friends with the older couple who lived below me. I adored them, and we were close, but not intimates. What I mean is that I loved chatting and sharing holiday wishes, visiting and exchanging gifts, but we were not close close, if you know what I mean. We depended on each other, and since we lived so close, we kept each other informed about the goings on in the building and neighborhood.

Perhaps since Lizzie and Emma were never employed, they had lots to talk about to the working Alice, sharing gossip and news of what was happening around their small world.

And if Lizzie was used to doing this, then when Alice moved a street away, it makes sense to me she goes to her friend and share her thoughts about the fears she had. She was used to doing this from the years of Alice living next door.

And what other friends does Lizzie have? Few are mentioned. Plenty of acquaintances for sure.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:37 am

Yes, the age factor, that is, between Lizzie, Emma and Alice is all irrelevant.

Emma could have become good friends with Alice and Lizzie came along in a package friendship and hit it off with Alice.

Funny Story...................

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a real good friend named NED. NED was my age. We attended Morton Jr. High together. NED had two brothers which I became real close to. Though I knew NED first, his older brother TIM and his younger brother BEN and I became much closer as friends. TIM was much older than me. Ben was much younger then me.

One day NED was jogging. They found his body in the road by the Brayton Power Plant in Somerset............Dead. He had a heart attack while jogging at the age of 35.

At That time I started hanging around with his brother TIM. TIM was a big drinker and ladies man. We had some wild times. TIM was into big band music and Elvis. I was into ELO and ELP. Our music and interests were very different but we clicked and became friends. As I mentioned above, opposites attract.

At the same time I became real close to TIM'S brother BENNY. BENNY was 5 years younger than me. Part of what held us together was our love for the same Rock groups. We went to countless concerts together, Yes, The Stones, Moody Blues, Cat Stevens, Alice Cooper, etc, etc.

What I was getting at here is that I met NED who was my age first, but became closer to his older and younger brothers.

As I mentioned............NED, brother number One died while jogging. I remember when they found him. He had no I.D. on him. The found out who he was by his initials inscribed in his wedding ring, and matching it to names in the phone book.

His brother TIM, brother number two, was found in the cellar of his house. He hung himself.

Benny, brother number 3, was my closes friend at the time; we became esstranged. We parted. BENNY became stranger and stranger.

Soon after................ BENNY strangled his girlfriend, dead. They next day he killed himself.

So, as you see. Living in Fall River Lizzie didn't have a chance for a happy life.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:04 am

It could be argued that since Emma was away in Fairhaven, Alice was temporarily filling the older sister role when Lizzie needed someone to lean on.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:15 pm

Oh, I like that one FairhavenGuy!

With Emma away she went to Alice. Nice. . .

Maybe Emma's quoted testimony above, then, shows a bit of jealousy! Now there's an idea!

JoAnne · Post by **JoAnne** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:52 pm

I believe the ladies were neighbors and over time became friends. Afterall, they were all single , attended the same church and probably had several friends or more likely acquaintances in common. Perhaps, Lizzie had a more interesting personality compared to Emma; so, Alice found Lizzie more entertaining. Now Mrs. Churchill was a widow, a mother of a young son and ran a household, she probably had little in common with Emma and Lizzie . Perhaps Addie found Abby's company more to her way of life.

diana · Post by **diana** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:56 pm

That is an interesting idea, Fairhaven Guy -- that Lizzie could have seen Alice as a surrogate sister when Emma was away. Good food for thought.

According to Alice's trial testimony, she'd lived next to the Bordens for eleven years -- until October of '90. (Trial, 373)

As to the closeness of the relationship, here are some snippets of Alice's testimony. From these it looks as though the friendship was an on-again-off-again kind of thing -- gaps when Lizzie was busy with her "outside work", for example -- then the relationship resumed again.

"Q. Was that quite a frequent thing, for her [Lizzie] to visit you?
A. She has done so more this Summer, because she has not had quite so much outside work, but we have always visited, been friends.
Q. Have you visited there a great deal?
A. Yes, sometimes perhaps I would go in quite often, and then again quite a spell I would not go." . . .

. . . Q. Who were you more particularly intimate with, Emma or Lizzie, or both?
A. I don't think there was very much difference." (Inquest, 146+)

At the Preliminary Hearing Alice is asked:
"Q. Had you been in the habit of visiting in that house?
A. I have been in the habit of going there, not making any visits
Q. How often had you been in the habit of going there?
A. Sometimes I would go perhaps two or three times a week, sometimes it would be two or three weeks
before I went.
Q. Who did you usually see when you went there?
A. Emma and Lizzie; just as it happened, if they were there." . . .

What does she mean by "not making any visits"?

Emma's reluctance to describe the relationship as intimate comes, as Harry shows us, after Alice's testimony about the dress burning but I wonder, too -- if there's a possibility Emma refrained from classifying the friendship as intimate because she perceived a difference in social status between Alice and the Bordens? From this distance, it's hard for us to know, as Stefani points out, whether any class distinction was going on in this particular instance. But if there was, Emma would probably be the more hidebound in this regard.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:09 am

I don't think anyone asked Alice to stay over after the murders- it just sort of happened.

Lizzie had friends who were teachers too, right? The friends she was to travel to Marion to be with were mostly teachers. I also think the Doctors had more status then than we think.

My understanding has been that close proximity would call for a friendship. As for making a "visit"- back then that meant staying over for a time, I believe. "Calling on" someone would mean spending some short time in their home if they were in to receive you.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:27 am

I can't imagine the relationship between Lizzie and Alice was that close.

Lizzie's social life, at least at the time of the murders, centered around her church activities. If what Emma says is true about Alice not being involved with Lizzie in those matters then it cuts down their time to associate drastically.

Alice was a working woman, probably 6 days a week, with little idle time. No time for fishing trips to Marion assuming she would even be invited. No jaunts to a family farm in Swansea. No shopping trips to Providence.

Close acquaintances sounds better to me than close friends.

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:01 pm

Thanks for illuminating that point about 'visits' versus 'calls', Kat. That makes sense now.

I agree, too, that the relationship between Lizzie and Alice was probably not an intimate friendship but perhaps a connection that developed when they were neighbors.

Maybe the perception the relationship was a close one stemmed from knowing Alice was the last person outside the household Lizzie spoke to prior to the murders, and the first friend Lizzie asked Bridget to bring to the house after the murders.

But this could simply be a result of proximity. It would be interesting to know who Lizzie considered her close friend, where that friend lived, and whether they were out of town at that time.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:05 pm

If Alice was not a very close friend of Lizzie's, why was she called for immediately after the doctor? Why wasn't Abby, who was supposedly responding to a note, thought of? Was the antagonism between Abby and Lizzie so great that Lizzie thought she might surprise Abby with the news when she returned from her "visit"? Bridget thought she knew where Abby might be found, at the Whitehead house.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:38 am

What have you been reading, Nadzieja?

There is bio material in Rebello, in the Knowlton Papers Glossary, in Hoffman, and also in the Proceedings book and in one of the "Quarterly Reports" published by the FRHS.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:05 pm

I think it should be pointed out that Alice's uncle, Seabury T. Manley, was a tenant of Andrew's in the Borden Bldg. (See "All Things Swift" by Terence Duniho in New Research here at lizzieandrew borden.com.) Seabury was an early Christian Scientist and their Fall River association was in the Borden Bldg. The fact that Alice had a relative who was a tenant might predispose Lizzie to speak to Alice about Andrew's tenant problems.

Also, Alice's grandmother, Abigail M. (Brownell) Manley was a member of the Quequechan Chapter of the DAR--a descendant of Stephen Brownell, Jr., a Minuteman during the American Revolution. This is a distinction which would give Alice prestige and connections, even though she didn't have lots of money.

“Mrs. Abbie M. Manley, a "Real Daughter" of the Revolution, whose father went to the front as a "minute man" when he was but 15 years old, died at her home in Tiverton, August 10, 1909. She was the widow of William M. Manley. She was a member of Quequechan Chapter, of Fall River.

Mrs. Manley was born in Little Compton on April 20, 1813, and had completed 96 years, 3 months and 21 days when she died. She was the youngest child of Stephen [Brownell] and Mary Coggeshall. Her father was 93 years old when he died in 1855. He substituted for his father as a "minute man" when 15 years old, and at 16 enlisted and served during the war.

The daughter, Abigail, lived in Little Compton until her marriage to Mr. Manley. He died in 1861. She has lived in Tiverton for the past quarter of a century. She died at the home of her daughter, Mrs. Horatio N. Hart.

Mrs. Manley's surviving children, of whom there were originally ten sons and six daughters, are Mrs. Judith M. Russell, Mrs. Mary E. Pike, Ephraim G. Manley, Mrs. John E. Manchester, Frank N. Manley, Sylvester C. Manley and Mrs. Hart.”

From: Daughters of the American Revolution
American Monthly Magazine

Vol. XXXV. Washington, D. C., July, 1909. No. 1.

This article can be accessed through Google Books online. The URL doesn't work when I copy and paste it Judith M. Russell (bolded) is Alice's mother. It is interesting to note that the Brownell was missing (intentional or typo?) after Stephen's name in the above article. Only his wife's maiden name-Coggeshall shows. With the notoriety Alice gained with the trial, I am always suspicious of omissions which cloud a person's ties.

I'm posting a working version of parts of Alice's family tree. She's connected to old New England families such as Thomas Gardner of Weymouth (Salem), Tristam Coffin (Nantucket), and Thomas Brownell (Little Compton). She has Starbucks, and Swains and Giffords and Manchesters and Wilbors and Coggeshalls and Dwelleys in her background. Essentially, her family had lots of relatives from Nantucket Island to Portsmouth, with many in New Bedford/Fall River area.

I haven't had time to check it out yet, but it did occur to me that Alice might be a relative to the Brownell Emma was visiting. This is just speculation.

Note: Lizzie's Gardners are descendants of Samuel Gardner. Thomas has several Samuels in his line--have not done enough research to know if they are related yet. Kat, do you know?

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:51 am

I was portraying Alice Russell with the Muttoneaters at the Lizzie Borden Live opening in Fall River.
I read her profile and all the references about her in Mr. Rebello's book.

That is basically where I got the information, the other things I've read were her testimony in the prelim. (I haven't read the trial yet)

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:41 pm

FairhavenGuy @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:04 am wrote:It could be argued that since Emma was away in Fairhaven, Alice was temporarily filling the older sister role when Lizzie needed someone to lean on.

Ohhhh, good one Christopher! Perhaps that is why Lizzie confided in Alice the night before the murders, and why, upon finding her father dead, she sent Bridget for Alice as soon as she returned from the doctor's house.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:28 pm

I quite agree-I have always thought the trip to Alice's was deliberate Wed. night, that sending Bridget to get Alice without giving her the address on Borden St was intentional and that Alice's presence the next few days in the house was not a coincidence. I suspect that Alice could have been counted upon to relate the discussion Lizzie had with her Wednesday night concerning "Father's enemy" and "tainted milk"to the police.

I do not think Lizzie counted on Alice walking in on her while she was tearing up and burning the dress, nor was she able to control Alice picking up the lamp to hasten after her on the first cellar trip the night of the murders. It speaks volumes to me that the minute Alice closed her bedroom door to wash up for the night, Lizzie seized that opportunity to go down the front steps and right back down to the cellar the second time moments after the first visit.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:18 pm

Nadzieja @ Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:53 pm wrote:It took me by surprise (and I don't know why really) that Alice worked as a bookkeeper, then teacher asst., then the head of the sewing dept. at the school.

* * *

I'm curious how they became friends, Lizzie becoming a friend with one of the "working class." It seems in Victorian times that there was a definite class distinction and that most people only associated with others in their class.

I'm talking off the top of my head here, but it would seem to me that, even then, there were working women and working women. Alice's jobs were a good deal more "respectable" than that of, say, a domestic. A friendship between Lizzie and Alice was certainly much more likely than one between Lizzie and the Kellys' servant girl.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:26 pm

Yes, I am sure after the Civil War many households were deprived of the chief breadwinner and if no son was present, it was up to a daughter to earn a living for herself if unmarried, and help support any small siblings and mother. Louisa May Alcott supplemented her family's meager income when the wolf was at the door, and these were certainly genteel ladies of some education and refinement. Teaching art, needlework, music, etc. and womanly pursuits carried no stigma. I daresay Lizzie must have, at times, been somewhat envious that Alice had careers to pursue and her own paycheck-not to mention gainful ways to pass the time.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:20 am

Kat @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:38 pm wrote:What have you been reading, Nadzieja?

There is bio material in Rebello, in the Knowlton Papers Glossary, in Hoffman, and also in the Proceedings book and in one of the "Quarterly Reports" published by the FRHS.

Here is a link to the FRHS publication of Summer 2002.
It's a download at their site. This issue has Alice in it- as *Lizzie's Turncoat Friend.*

http://www.lizzieborden.org/Publications.html

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:57 am

Thanks Kat, It was interesting to read about her & see a picture.
Is there anywhere else where it says that her middle name is Maria and not Manley?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:00 am

Our Cynthia has posted quite a genealogy (unverified, she says) here in the "Heritage" section and seems to show *Maria* as Alice's mother's middle name as well. Tree's are not proof tho, as Cynthia does point out...

viewtopic.php?t=4225

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:29 pm

Shelley - you quite took my breath away!

Yes, of course, Lizzie has set up her "alibi" - Father has enemies, we practically have hands coming out of the walls to grab us, etc.

Then, Lizzie acts. Then she first gets Maggie to run for a doctor (is this in keeping with that she later claimed she told Maggie that she "thought" Father was "hurt?") and then she directs Maggie to fetch Alice, Alice who knows all about the possibility of someone wanting to attack Andrew (since Lizzie filled her head with it just the night before)!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:43 am

Bob G., partial:

we practically have hands coming out of the walls to grab us, etc.

Is that Repulsion with Catherine Deneuve?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:41 am

Bingo!