Sunday & Monday

DJ · Post by DJ » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:29 pm

In the Lizzie's lame excuses department-- her reason for not going to Marion before Sunday, Aug. 7: her taking a roll at church. Seems she could have had someone else fulfill the task, or at least have gone ahead on vacation, then come back Saturday and left again Sunday, after church.
It would seem that she would have welcomed a vacation-- why hang around Second Street that week, when surely she could have deputized someone else for the task that allegedly kept her at home?
******************
Perhaps this was an untruth, or perhaps Lizzie slipped and revealed something important: Who was Abby expecting as a guest on Monday, the 8th? If a guest were indeed expected, would the arrival of that person have had anything to do with Lizzie's motive for acting when she did, assuming that she was the murderer?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:52 pm

There may have been several people on vacation, so maybe the roll would have been minimal, possibly unnecessary.

Abby's Monday guest seems to be in the good company of Abby's note. I don't think anyone came forward as intending to visit the Bordens on Monday.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:07 pm

I don't think any visitor was expected, just another Lizzie tale, but it is just my opinion. Lizzie I think was a master of deception, some people can lie and believe their own lies.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:33 pm

Spot on DJ! I always wondered myself why a happy gal on the prowl would haul back to the city during a hot summer week when she could have been having a cool time of it. After visiting Marion recently, WILD HORSES would not drag me away from it to go back to Fall River. She had been to Blake's Point with a bevy of friends on the day trip shortly before and I too find it extremely unlikely that her return home had anything to do with taking the roll at a church function.

It was a very common, if not usual practice, for families of wealth and upper class to leave the city for extended long stays at seaside resort hotels and boarding houses (especially ladies and children who did not have to slave like the men in the city year 'round). I should think that many of Lizzie's Central Congregational well-heeled gang were cooling themselves on verandas and porches by the sea anyway- not hobbling off in the heat to church for Lizzie to count and record.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:31 am

Smudgeman @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:07 pm wrote:I don't think any visitor was expected, just another Lizzie tale, but it is just my opinion. Lizzie I think was a master of deception, some people can lie and believe their own lies.

I had not thought of this that way- it's interesting to think *How would anyone know who was expected or who wasn't expected?*
There'd be no way to check.

DJ · Post by DJ » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:49 pm

It's a point at which Knowlton drops the ball, doesn't he? The logical follow-up would have been, "Who was expected?"
If Lizzie had said she didn't know, she would have been lying. There's no way she would have known that company was coming and not have found out who that company was, if not from Mrs. Borden, then from her Father, for he certainly would have been apprised of the identity of said company.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:33 pm

God, yes. Talk about unasked questions!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:57 pm

If Bridget knew who might be coming, and was not asked, I don't think she offered up the info- that we of, anyway. If she did know, and did not mention it to authorities, I wonder what that implies? Also, there is the possibility that Bridget knew that Abbie did not tell her anyone was coming. Or Bridget and Lizzie could have agreed upon that *fact* of someone coming Monday ahead of time- to explain - what?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:33 am

It would give a reason why Abby was upstairs on the second floor. She had already made up the bed. She was giving it the finishing touches for the supposed "company coming" on Monday.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:03 pm

I wonder if Abby's fussing with the guest room indicated to Lizzie that John Morse was not expected to stay another night? Maybe she was surprised at his presence at noon on August 4th.

DJ · Post by DJ » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:28 pm

One wonders what time Lizzie arose that fateful day-- did John Morse make much noise in arising and descending, first, that a.m.? Surely she could hear Mr. and Mrs. Borden stirring, on the other side of the nailed door.
Then, Abby comes up to change the bed covers, post-breakfast.
Lizzie composed a missive to Emma that a.m., apparently before she came downstairs. She tesitifies that Mr. Borden, still under the weather and taking his "physic," says he may or may not go to the P.O. that morning, as per his feeling poorly.
Seems a concerned daughter would have ambled over to the P.O., posted her letter, and picked up Mr. Borden's mail, so he didn't have to go out until he was feeling up to it.
I've a nagging feeling that Lizzie wrote the letter with the sole intent of "pressuring" him on his way-- "Father, won't you please get this off for me this morning? There are so many handkerchiefs to iron."
If her plans were laid when she arose that a.m., then the letter had to serve some dual purpose.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:57 pm

Lizzie was supposed to have come downstairs around 9. I always thought it odd she did not come down for breakfast if she knew her uncle was there and she may not see him again for a long time. Do we know if she wrote Emma's letter that morning- or at sometime before?

John had left, Andrew was on the sofa briefly before he went out, Bridget was vomitting in the back yard. Abby was flicking a feather duster around the diningroom. Lizzie gave her father the letter, went down to cellar and encountered Bridget coming in the side door with pail and brush. Then she told Bridget she supposed she did not want much for breakfast herself. Bridget mentioned getting water from the barn if Lizzie wanted to lock up the screen door. Andrew must have left shortly after nine. Bridget goes outside about 9:15. Always interesting to note that anytime Bridget leaves the scene, somebody dies shortly thereafter. I think that is roughly the sequence. Yes, either Andrew was stubborn and wanted to keep his routine as usual, foregoing being an invalid and lounging around the house giving in to the sickness- or Lizzie encouraged him to get his rounds accomplished and nudged him out with the letter.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:49 pm

Lizzie would have to know ahead of time that Bridget was going to wash windows before prompting Andrew to leave with the letter. Otherwise Bridget would probably remain indoors and Andrew's absence would be a moot point.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:50 am

I've just added some chronology to the other topic of Bridget's Window Washing:
viewtopic.php?t=4231

I don't know why Abbie must be in the guest room fixing the bed to be killed. If so, then Morse staying there would engender Abbie's work in the room, keeping her there for several minutes working, implying that might be part of a plan

Or why upcoming guests would be a reason to explain why Abbie was in there...

If Abbie knew Morse was not staying over any more than the one night, then she might have been in there fixing it up for future, getting it done- without another spot of company coming Monday. I still don't know why company Monday might be a fiction- what purpose it serves?

[Edited for spelling! Jeesh! I need to switch back to Firefox which makes misspellings glow!- I used to be able to spell very well before Firefox! ]

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:31 am

True- company coming was not absolutely necessary. She could have said Abby went upstairs to finish some sewing project, or probably to get a shawl out of the dresser as she had gotten that note and was going out. There might have been a dozen likely reasons.

What IS interesting is that mention of "company"coming on Monday. Often times guilty parties will embroider and invent things to add on to testimony, thinking it will convince the police they are telling the truth. Keep it simple and tell just what they ask you. How many murderers can't shut up and keep adding little details thinking it will sound more natural? Agatha Christie used to say, "Let them talk and talk and pretty soon they will catch themselves up". Lizzie should have just stopped at going up to the loft to look for some tin for sinkers. But then we get the pears, how many, etc etc- pulling over boxes, 15 minutes, no maybe 20 minutes. . . .
I wonder if there was going to really be company if someone wrote and told them not to come?

DJ · Post by DJ » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:55 pm

Another theory to Lizzie's writing Emma & mentioning perhaps fictitious co. to come: An attempt to create an illusion that everything's hunky-dory. As in, why should she be posting a letter to Emma on the day she was planning to commit murder?
Everything's proceeding "normally" in this "normal" household.
Lizzie's letter and the mention of Monday co. are reminiscent of her stating that Abby asked her what she (Lizzie) preferred for dinner that day, from the market.
As if--
Abby might ask Mr. Borden that, but no one else. Besides, she would have been working within her budget and what was fresh and available and reasonably priced.
However, Lizzie seems to be hoping to establish a sense of "cordialty," that she was "tight" with Mrs. Borden, that they had been discussing co., and everything was proceeding to plan in the happy household.
*************************************************************
The more I think on it, the more the Monday co. seems a fiction because no one mentions it again.
Then, by the same token, perhaps Lizzie did slip regarding some important visitor, and no one wished to draw attention to the expected co. thereafter, that a note was discreetly sent to said party, and the subject was dropped, with relief on Lizzie's and Emma's side.
Maddening!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:27 am

It's interesting to note that Lizzie returned home from her summer trip, and planned to leave again Monday- the same day some company was due to come to stay...

Who could it have been??? Maybe Lizzie wanted to duck out of seeing these people/person? If it was more than a single person, or married couple, I wonder if hers and/or Emma's rooms might have been considered to be put into use, as both girls had other plans, to be away? The killings would negate all that. But then, wouldn't that person or family come forward?

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:11 pm

I am still puzzled by the note. What was the explanation that it was never found ? Seems that it would have been found in Abby's apron. Were they such neat freaks that any scrap of paper would be put into the fire ? Another red herring.

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:31 pm

Kat @ Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:27 pm wrote:It's interesting to note that Lizzie returned home from her summer trip, and planned to leave again Monday- the same day some company was due to come to stay...

Who could it have been??? Maybe Lizzie wanted to duck out of seeing these people/person? If it was more than a single person, or married couple, I wonder if hers and/or Emma's rooms might have been considered to be put into use, as both girls had other plans, to be away? The killings would negate all that. But then, wouldn't that person or family come forward?

I wonder if it was a friend or friends of the elder Bordens and they planned to take the girls' absence as an opportunity to entertain? There would be fewer in the house to cook for, etc. with Lizzie and Emma away. As for the anticipated guests coming forward later -- it's possible they opted to keep their name well away from anything as scandalous as a crime.

A remote thought centers on Morse's testimony:
"Page 248
Q. From any talk that you had with Mr. and Mrs. Borden at that time did you understand there was any intention, or had been any intention on their part to go over to their farm in Swansea?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did they say about that?
A. They said they wanted to go, providing they could get Mrs. Vinnecum to go with them. She is a lady that lives over in Swansea.
Q. What did she have to do about it, do you know?
A. She was expecting her sister here from the West; and if she came they could not go.
Q. Is that what Mr. or Mrs. Borden told you?
A. Mrs. Borden told me that." (Preliminary Hearing, 248)

Perhaps there was a possibility that Mrs. Vinnecum would spend the night before their departure for Swansea at the Bordens? Just a thought.

cfking · Post by **cfking** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:41 pm

Perhaps the letter to Emma was some kind of code. "Company is coming.." could mean, "Get ready-the house will be full of people because I am doing it!"
Hmmmm.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:39 pm

It just occurred to me that the visitors might have been the relatives staying at the Emerys' house. That might be how Uncle John knew to visit them since he was still anticipating returning to Dartmouth on that day.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:01 am

Those are both excellent suppositions you two! Bravo!