Scottish ancestry?

[ddnoe]

Did the Bordens have Scottish ancestry?

[snokkums]

From what I have found so far is that some of family was from headcorn county in Kent England, and some of the family came from Normandy, France. Haven't seen any scottish blood yet. I am going to keep looking,tho. Bordon does sound like a Scottish.

Good Question!!

[mbhenty]

Yes Ddnoe:


Off the top of my head, for I can not remember where I read it, if one traces the Borden name down through the ages you will find that it has a French origin.

It is very unlikely that the Borden would have any Scottish in them. There could have been that rogue Borden who married a Scott but I am sure no one talks about it. The Borden's were an aristocratic bunch and a barbarous Scott would be too Un-English.

In Fall River there were very little Scottish and almost no Welsh history to talk about. In Lizzie's time the only Scotts that come to mind were two brothers who started the Kerr Thread Mills on the Watuppa.

[Tina-Kate]

I particularly remember this because it's so similar to my own known ancestry...British & French..."Frenglish".

This information is all confirmed in the early pages of Lizzie Borden Past & Present by Leonard Rebello.

Also interesting is Rebello includes the Borden coat of arms, which contains a lion wielding a battle axe...

[mbhenty]

Ah, yes, TINA:

According to "The Rebello" you are right. The Bordens had their origins in France. OH MY DOD! Blasphemous.

One, John Borden, who moved to Wales had two Sons, Richard and John while living in Wales. They in turn migrated to America. So the first two Bordens to New England were Welsh, since they married in Wales and
probably married Welsh ladies.

Lets see....................the first Bordens were not English at all but French Welshmen. (?)

[Shelley]

Yes, Bordennay or Bourdoney is the French version in Rebello. He also had the Borden coat of arms hung up in the house in the sitting room. There is a griffin rampant holding- a battle axe on top of the shield! The story as I have heard it was after crossing the channel, the new Bordennays settled around the British Isles. I think that thistle pattern (symbol of Scotland) in the Maplecroft library mantle, Lizzie's penchant for Scots domestics, and the At Hame in My Ain Countrie's Robert Burnsian dialect has led to much speculation that OUR Bordens had a Scot in the family tree. Lizzie also "travelled extensively in Scotland" on her grand tour so the Boston paper said. There is even a rumor that Emma went to Scotland, or she said that she did - I have not been able to find a passport for her.

So, this will need more investigating. How I WISH we knew more about the Scottish references in Maplecroft furnishings- they may have been put there by Mr. Allen.

[Tina-Kate]

I have Welsh on my mother's side. Egads. I remember reading all of this & having a chuckle. Blood sisters with Lizzie Borden!

Emma went to Scotland (if she is indeed the author of a postcard from there that bears her same name). I believe there was a book on Scotland in Lizzie's known collection as well.

There might have been a fashionable Scottish thing happening at the time.

[Shelley]

One thing I have noticed poking through cemeteries and old city directories, Andrew, Emma and Abby Borden are names which appear more than once. That Emma postcard, - well, it may have been another Emma. Thre is NO record of a passport for Emma Lenora Borden and I have gone through the years from 1869-1927. we know when Emma was at Wheaton Seminary, and it is highly doubtful she travelled during the Civil War years with a chaperone, or when she was very young as her real mother was sickly and had younger children in tow, which leaves that period of 1869-1927.

[Angel]

Am I wrong in remembering that I read somewhere that after Emma moved away she lived somewhere else under an assumed name? If that's true, maybe she traveled under that name and that's why you cannot find the passport.

[Shelley]

That's another myth according to Len. Emma did not ever use an assumed name. Lizzie used Mary Borden once in the hospital. Emma lived in Fall River off and on, stayed for a time in Providence at the Minden Apartments, stayed with the Bucks for a short time, summered with the sisters up in New Market NH, where, in her old age, she moved permanently and died there. Not to mention, you cannot use a false name on a passport. Illegal.

[snokkums]

Bordenny was the name that I found in the geneology list of the Bordens that I saw, and the name was from Normandy. I didn't see anybody from Wales. Maybe I didn't go back far enough.

[NESpinster]

That's another myth according to Len. Emma did not ever use an assumed name. Lizzie used Mary Borden once in the hospital. Emma lived in Fall River off and on, stayed for a time in Providence at the Minden Apartments, stayed with the Bucks for a short time, summered with the sisters up in New Market NH, where, in her old age, she moved permanently and died there. Not to mention, you cannot use a false name on a passport. Illegal.

As opposed to double parricide?

Sorry--couldn't resist!

One thing does make me wonder if there might not have been a stray Scottish gene in the Borden pool--that curly red hair of Lizzie's.

Common belief says that Ireland has the most redheads, but untrue.

That honor belongs to the Highlands of Scotland.

I, alas, am a mere cur according to Borden standards. Despite a large number of presumably respectable English ancestors, I also have *GASP* my share of Welsh and Scottish ancestry (without the red hair, sad to say).

I definitely would have been relegated either to the attic with my fellow lowly Celt Bridget, or banished belowstairs. LOL.

[Kat]

There is sadly no description that we can rely upon that says Lizzie had red hair. I think a whole lot of descriptions of her were unearthed and posted a while back- barely a suggestion of a strand of red.
Her arrest warrant says "light" hair- and that was considered light brown.

[augusta]

James Johnston, the blind man who worked for Borden & Almy making mattresses was from Scotland. He was a pretty popular fellow among Fall-riverites, or so I've read. He stuck with it while Borden and Almy retired and worked for the next two companies that owned it.

John Crowe was born in Scotland, too. He came to the US when he was in his twenties and worked his way up from a worker, to a foreman, then owned his own building business and was very successful.

Kat - it is weird how the description of Lizzie's hair was written up at the time of her trial as different colors by different writers. I think someone even called it "black". It does look red in black and white - if that makes any sense. But a 'light brown' it looks like, too. I wonder if people just loved her being a red-head, which some think signifies a temper.

[jcurrie]

From what I have found so far is that some of family was from headcorn county in Kent England, and some of the family came from Normandy, France. Haven't seen any scottish blood yet. I am going to keep looking,tho. Bordon does sound like a Scottish.

Good Question!!

Where on earth is "Headcorn County"? I live in Kent, but have never heard of that. I don't think that the Bordens had Scottish ancestry. I believe, though, that the original Borden who emigrated to the US did come from Kent - I can't recall where. Information is from Robert Sullivan's book - very well researched.

[Harry]

The Bible of Bordenia, Len Rebello's "Lizzie Borden: Past and Present" has this on the origin of the Bordens (page 1):

"The Bordens were of French heritage and derived their name from Bourdonnay, an ancient village in Normandy. The name Borden changed over five hundred years: Burdon, Burden, Bordin, Bording, Bordinghe, Berden, Birdin, and Barden. They came to England with William the Conqueror and fought in the Battle of Hastings, overthrowing Harold and the Saxon regime. When the division of land took place, the Bordens were assigned estates in the County of Kent. During this period, the Bordens established themselves, named their estates and founded a religious parish. They acquired wealth and influence and contributed generously to religious and charitable institutions."

Welcome, JCurrie!

[Tina-Kate]

Welcome JCurrie!

I believe Currie is a Scottish name?

[Harry]

One of my favorite actors is Finley Currie (1878-1968). Any relation? He was born in Edinburgh, Scotland.

He played the escaped convict Abel Magwitch in the 1946 version of Dickens' Great Expectations.

[nbcatlover]

I've always thought Lizzie's Scottish ancestry came from the elusive Rhody Morrison, with ties to Clan Morrison.

[Kat]

There might have been a romanticized interest in Scotland because of early influences of the famous writers, Robert Burns and Sir Walter Scott, among others.

[NESpinster]

I think that Lizzie's ancestors came from the Weald of Kent in England--I remember that because some of my New England ancestors were also from that area. (Only no Bordens--at least so far!)

Okay, I just took a quick trip to ancestry.com, where I'm a member. Never would have guessed, would you?

I didn't follow the Morrison link (altho I do think it's a Scottish surname), but I definitely found Welsh ancestry galore for Lizzie--if the info is correct, that is! (In genealogy, you never know!)

I found, for example, an ancestor of Lizzie's named Richard Bowen, born ca 1590 in Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales, died 4 February 1674 in Rehoboth, Bristol County, Massachusetts, USA. Richard Bowen's wife was an Ann Born, also from Swansea. Then there are tons of other Welsh names in this line, including Griffith, Philips, Wynn, etc.

I'll check again later on the Kentish ancestry--I must have been looking at a different ancestry tree of Lizzie's where I saw that it was in the Weald of Kent. All this one kept saying was "Headcorn"--apparently the name of a town or village which may no longer exist?--in the county of Kent.

My own Kentish ancestors are from places like Benenden and Tenterden, in the area called the Weald, and I'm not sure if Lizzie's were from those exact towns or not--but I know I saw something "Weald"-ish!

[NESpinster]

Ah, the joys of googling!

My good friends, I googled "Headcorn Kent"--honestly expecting to turn up nothing--and voila! There it was!

From a couple of notes I scribbled: (re: location): 9 miles NE of Goudhurst, on the A274 (a roadway I believe--maybe Mr. Currie can translate? )

And this comes from the 1831 Topographical Dictionary:

"Headcorn, a parish in the hundred of Eyehorne, lathe of Aylesford, County of Kent, 8 and one-half miles SSE from Maidstone, containing 1191 inhabitants....It is a decayed market town, situated on a branch of the River Medway."

Apparently it is largely famous for its link to the Borden family and also to the Tudor-era aristocratic Culpeper family, which owned estates in the area.

However "decayed" Headcorn may be, and however small its populace it appears that it does still exist--altho I can see why a lot of the people of Kent might never have heard of it!

[jcurrie]

Thank you, Tina-Kate. I love this Board. I don't know why I'm so interested in this case. Maybe because we know that Lizzie was the culprit yet got away with it. A friend of mine majored in American History and sent me an article about the Borden case entitled: "She didn't do it even if she did", outlining why she got away with it (basically, the attitudes in Victorian times regarding women, especially genteel, middle-class women). If she had been lower down the social scale (say, a mill worker in Fall River) she would probably have been found guilty.

Yes, Currie is indeed a Scottish name and I am indeed Scottish, though I live in England.

I used to work in Boston and have visited Fall River. About 20 years ago I tried to find the house and, although I had the address, couldn't find it. It wasn't until I found a plaque on the wall of City Hall that I realised it was right opposite the bus station and I had walked past it several times! As the bus station was new since I had worked in Boston I can only think that it was deliberately built there. I reckon the city fathers were thinking of the Borden afiocionados (I don't think that's spelt right). They're not fools!

[NESpinster]

There is sadly no description that we can rely upon that says Lizzie had red hair. I think a whole lot of descriptions of her were unearthed and posted a while back- barely a suggestion of a strand of red.
Her arrest warrant says "light" hair- and that was considered light brown.

*SIGH* Another favorite belief vanquished!

It is odd how descriptions of her hair color vary! I mean, these were reports made by people who saw her every day practically in court, and even tho she seemed to wear hats a lot (as did most women of her time), I still don't see how people could come up with such a rainbow of colors for one woman's hair!!

Yes, I too saw where one reporter described Lizzie's hair as "black"--my jaw nearly hit the floor when I read that! Her hair may not have been red, but black it was not!

I'm glad we have the photos that we do have from Lizzie's lifetime, but if only they had had color film back then!!!!

BTW--it seems from her photos that Lizzie's eyes were light in color--does anyone know just what color they were? Blue, gray, green, hazel....?

[Kat]

Any official legal description would carry more weight than a reporter's, I think. The arrest book notation also has her eye color. I think there is another official description source, but at the momennt cannot think what it is:Was it her booking into Taunton jail?

[Edit here:] Here is the arrest booking page: It doesn't seem to fit the screen- if you click on the smaller picture in the box, it will open larger- it says "gray" for eye color.
"Light" complexion, and "light" hair color.

[NESpinster]

Oh, wow, Kat--that is fascinating, I've never seen it before!

So first we have the person's name, then their age, then gender, then height (so if my eyes don't deceive me, which they have been known to do!) it looks like our Lizzie was about 5' 4"--I would think a bit on the tall side for women of her day??? Does anyone have any data on average heights of men and women of the late Victorian period? I'm pretty sure most of them were shorter than we are now--I say that despite the fact that I am less than 5'4" myself!

Then--in some cases but not all--some numbers which I am guessing would be the person's weight?? Interesting that Lizzie's is left blank (that's what money and prestige can do for you, lol!). Then colors of (1) complexion (2) hair and (3) eyes. Then, probably, place of birth.

So it seems that our girl was Lizzie A. Borden (is that her birthdate scribbled in above her name? if not, can anyone tell what it is??), age 32, Female, 5'4", weight not given (but in that space our scribbler wrote in "daughter of Andrew J" ), complexion light, hair light, eyes gray, and Fall River given, apparently, as place of birth.

That definitely helps! Even with the pictures, I like knowing the data--probably the OCD side of me lol--it helps me "picture" her better somehow. If only that "light" hair weren't so vague--it could be pretty much anything between platinum blonde--which I think we can all agree is MOST unlikely--thru darker shades of blonde, into light brown, even a not-too-dark chestnut brown. Or even light auburn/strawberry blonde!!! (Hey--didn't think I'd give up that easily, did you?! )

That is fascinating--thanks again, Kat!

[Kat]

We had discussed this and I recall another reference -(thru Jennings, somehow?) that gives a description of *a* hair color as *light* and then went on to say brown. This is not necessarily Lizzie I am referring to- but that at the time that was a common way to describe light brown. It was an alternate source as back-up for what I was posting about, but this was quite a while ago.
If anyone can find the topic here on Lizzie's hair and/description, that might help.

[Harry]

Like the color of her eyes, the color of her hair has been recorded many different ways. Our Diana, way back in August 2002, posted some quotes from the various authors. Look at post #46 in this thread:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... rdcord.htm

This list I compiled from various newspaper accounts:

Evening Standard, Aug. 30, 1892 – “Miss Lizzie's is invariably worn high on the head. It is a medium brown in color, fine and exceptionally glossy and always carefully curled in front and shows a slight suggestion of waviness at the back.”

Fall River Globe, Aug. 26, 1892 – “A black toque, trimmed with ribbons of the same color and ornamented with a black aigrette, rested on a wealth of light hair, neatly arranged in a coil at the back.”

Boston Globe, Aug. 5, 1892 – “Graceful in movement, she inclines toward the brunette in complexion, with dark eyes and dark hair.”

Boston Globe, Aug. 6, 1892 – “She has light blue eyes, light complexion and hair and is intelligent and attractive in appearance.”

Boston Globe, Aug. 7, 1892 – “Her rich brown hair was combed high and every hair was in its place. While not handsome, Miss Lizzie is decidedly attractive in appearance.

Boston Globe, Aug. 24, 1892 – “Lizzie was the same carefully gowned young woman. Her brown hair was dressed in a roll on the back of her head and surmounted by a dainty blue bonnet trimmed plainly with ribbon and small flowers of the same hue.

Boston Globe, June 6, 1893 – “Her dark brown hair was modestly coiled behind. Her full forehead was very pale, her wide-apart eyes had an unpleasant stare.”

Boston Herald, Aug. 6, 1892 (and Boston Globe) – “A wealth of black hair is revealed under the hat which, arranged on top of her head, is trained about her forehead in short curls, parted in the centre and thrown over to the sides.”

N.Y. Press, June 5, 1893 – “If her eyes were brighter they would be called steel colored, but there is a dullness in them that suggests suffering. There is a dullness too about her hair. It is of a peculiar shade of brown that is hard to describe, otherwise than as a muddy brown. It has that look on it too that gives it the appearance of sickness.”

N.Y. Herald, Aug. 8, 1892 – “She is a masculine looking woman, with a strong, resolute, unsympathetic face. She is robustly built; thirty three years old and of average height. Her voice has a peculiar guttural harshness. Her hair is brown and long, her eyes brown and steady.”

[jcurrie]

Ah, the joys of googling!

My good friends, I googled "Headcorn Kent"--honestly expecting to turn up nothing--and voila! There it was!

From a couple of notes I scribbled: (re: location): 9 miles NE of Goudhurst, on the A274 (a roadway I believe--maybe Mr. Currie can translate? )

And this comes from the 1831 Topographical Dictionary:

"Headcorn, a parish in the hundred of Eyehorne, lathe of Aylesford, County of Kent, 8 and one-half miles SSE from Maidstone, containing 1191 inhabitants....It is a decayed market town, situated on a branch of the River Medway."

Apparently it is largely famous for its link to the Borden family and also to the Tudor-era aristocratic Culpeper family, which owned estates in the area.

However "decayed" Headcorn may be, and however small its populace it appears that it does still exist--altho I can see why a lot of the people of Kent might never have heard of it!

Dear NE Spinster:

To answer your question, the A274 is a major road but not a motorway (your highways). I looked up Headcorn on the map and it's not far from Maidstone, which is the county town. I wonder if Thomas Culpeper, who was accused of committing adultery with Catherine Howard, one of Henry VIII's wives, was a member of that family? It sounds like it.

I am female, by the way.

[jcurrie]

Any official legal description would carry more weight than a reporter's, I think. The arrest book notation also has her eye color. I think there is another official description source, but at the momennt cannot think what it is:Was it her booking into Taunton jail?

[Edit here:] Here is the arrest booking page: It doesn't seem to fit the screen- if you click on the smaller picture in the box, it will open larger- it says "gray" for eye color.
"Light" complexion, and "light" hair color.

Dear Kat:

In the photos I've seen of Lizzie, her hair colour looks red, though it turned mousy brown in later years (when Victoria Lincoln remembered her). Thanks for the great research!

[jcurrie]

Any official legal description would carry more weight than a reporter's, I think. The arrest book notation also has her eye color. I think there is another official description source, but at the momennt cannot think what it is:Was it her booking into Taunton jail?

[Edit here:] Here is the arrest booking page: It doesn't seem to fit the screen- if you click on the smaller picture in the box, it will open larger- it says "gray" for eye color.
"Light" complexion, and "light" hair color.

Dear Kat:

In the photos I've seen of Lizzie, her hair colour looks red, though it turned mousy brown in later years (when Victoria Lincoln remembered her). Thanks for the great research!

[Kat]

The arrest book page is something I did not find. I don't know who did, but it's been around for quite a while. I just know how to *find* these things in my computer files!

Anyway, since Lizzie's photos were black and white, I don't know how her hair can appear red? But if you are relying on Lincoln, then I have not a response to that, as I do not rely on her.

Thanks Harry for all the *brown* hair research! That's good stuff! I never knew there were that many *brown hair* descriptions in the papers!

[Tina-Kate]

Since Lincoln "knew" Lizzie after her hair was gray, I tend to think Lizzie probably had auburn hair...brown with red highlights or reddish tone...& that this coppery tinge may have remained with the gray.

Lincoln may have heard people refer to Lizzie's hair as "red"...seeing as Victorians saw it as an "evil" color & may have exaggerated her redness as part of the lore.

This is all speculation of course, but it's how I explain the discrepancies.