rat poison

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:38 pm

I would like to know if arsenic was the only thing available to kill rats because if Warfarin, which is used today, was used and was available in Lizzie's day, perhaps a poisoning with that substance could have been the reason Andrew's blood didn't clot. Warfarin is the same as coumadin, which is used now to thin the blood of patients. Just a "way out there" thought.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:42 pm

I just looked up arsenic- that can cause clotting problems too. hmmm.
Also, both poisons can cause vomiting, gastric distress, diarrhea.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:01 am

I don't know how many here agree with a similar time frame between the killings.
Maybe you could take a poll?

My opinion is that I have to rely on the experts who were there and found Abby cold and Andrew not, regardless of the clotting factor or the digestive permutations.
I was skimming thru testimony yesterday looking for something and the doctors agree in court that there was this hour to hour-and-a-half to two-hour time difference, and they were there. Even the common man (Pettee) agrees the blood on Abby's head was dry and stiff.

Witness Statements
21
Petty
George Petty, No. 98 Second street. “Went in the house with Dr. Bowen on his second visit. Mr. Borden had the appearance of having been killed but a short while, for the blood was fresh and flowing. Went up stairs, got down on my knees to examine Mrs. Borden’s head. At once I saw she had ben dead sometime, and told the Doctor she must have been dead an hour. I further said, this is where the trouble began; this is the starting point. The blood had ceased to flow. It was dark, and covered with a kind of skin.”

Trial
Pettee
It was quite dark in there, so much so that I could not see very well, and I passed in to her head and got down on my knees and put my hand on her head in order that I might see and feel what the condition of her head was in. As soon as my hand touched her head I noticed that the hair was dry, that it was matted, that it seemed to be very rough

Page 647

on the palm of my hand, and that there was no moisture adhered to my hand when I took it away.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:02 pm

"There is a theory that Napoleon Bonaparte suffered from arsenic poisoning, and samples of his hair did show high levels of the element. This, however, does not imply deliberate poisoning by Napoleon's enemies: Copper arsenate has been used as a pigment in some wallpapers, and microbiological liberation of the arsenic into the immediate environment would be possible. The case is equivocal, in the absence of clearly authenticated samples of the wallpaper.

Even without contaminated wallpaper, there are many other routes by which he could have picked up arsenic: arsenic was used medicinally for centuries and, in fact, was used extensively to treat syphilis before penicillin was introduced; it was replaced for treating other conditions by sulfa drugs and then by antibiotics. Arsenic was an ingredient in many tonics (or "patent medicines"), just as coca (unrefined cocaine) was an ingredient in Coca-Cola when it was introduced. During the Victorian era, some women ate a mixture of vinegar, chalk, and arsenic to whiten their skin."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_poisoning
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DESCRIPTION: Toxic condition caused by exposure to arsenic. Characteristics - throat constriction, dysphagia, burning gastrointestinal pain, vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration, pulmonary edema, renal failure, liver failure. Usual course - acute; chronic.

http://www.5mcc.com/Assets/SUMMARY/TP0079.html
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If warfarin or acts as an anti coagulant that can cause massive blood loss or internal bleeding, wouldn't there be more bloodshed at the crime scene? Interesting that arsenic can also delay blood clotting. I understand how the poison slowing or stopping the clotting of blood could explain how Andrew's blood was still running fresh. Thats how rats die from warfarin, they die from massive internal bleeding.I read an article about Donald DeWar, a government figure in Scotland who died from a brain hemorage caused by a fall after warfarin therapy. So I think this theory could hold some water. What I don't understand is why there wouldn't be more blood at the scene if this was the case? Shouldn't there have been great gobs of blood?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:23 pm

When the whole arsenic/wallpaper brouhaha surfaced in the 60's my grandmother had all the "old" wallpaper ripped off the walls of the house.

We still laugh about it....

My mother spent years trying to replace it with original, period paper but had to compromise for reproductions.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:37 am

I'm sure your mother was very disappointed Audrey.Was she able to match the design of any of the wallpaper that was previously in the house, or did she have to go with a whole new scheme of papers? Were any tests performed on the paper to see if there were traces of arsenic?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:16 am

She had repros made from photos....