Did Abby make a thud when her body fell?

[dalcanton]

At the time of the murders/trial, it was questioned how an innocent Lizzie (if inside the house at the time that her stepmother was being killed) couldn't have heard a 200-lb Abby fall to the floor with a thud. Was there a general consensus that assumed Abby was standing when she was attacked? It's possible she could've been on her knees near the foot of the bed, tucking in stray sheet corner, for ex. Abby could've turned her head in surprise or fear to face her killer (thus the flap wound) while she was still on her knees. After the first blow, she could've simply fallen forward on the floor - not making a thud at all. Also, another thing that always bugged me - in the crime scene photo of Abby, there is a white dust rag by her body. Hadn't she already dusted the room during her first visit to the guest room? Wasn't she going back up just to put on fresh pillowcases? So, why did she have the dust rag in her hand during her 2nd visit?

[Yooper]

Unless Abby was killed in the position she was found in, I'm sure there was some noise generated if she fell, either from a standing position or from her knees. How much noise and from where it could be heard might be a good question for Shelley, she may know. As far as that goes, there would probably have been some noise generated by the hatchet striking her head while her head was against the floor.

[kssunflower]

I think the item found near Abby was a silk handkerchief, which was bloodstained. I'm not sure if it would have been used for dusting.

[Shelley]

A thud is heard in the sitting room, diningroom, front hall and parlor- but not in the kitchen. We've done this experiment maybe 100 or more times. People love to listen for it. Of course, it may be far more likely that poor Abby went down in stages, not just a body slam from a complete vertical. Contusions on the forehead and nose could have come from the repeat blows from the back, banging her head into the floor.

[Kat]

There is a white crumpled thing in a photo of Abbie- near her torso. We don't know what that is or where it came from. She was last seen with a feather duster in her hand, not a rag.

As for the bloody handkerchief, that is not in the photos. That was dark-colored and shredded and I'm not convinced as to what exactly it is or why it was at the scene- and that had blood on it- yes.

There is an article about it by me in The Hatchet, "On the Trail of the Bloody Handkerchief."
Vol 5, Issue 3, no 23

If modern forensic techniques could have been used on it there may have been found Abbie's blood and one other!

[Bob Gutowski]

And we know the crime scene photos are lovely (?) souvenirs, but that they don't represent how the victims where actually found, or the position at the time of discovery of the objects around them.

[Kat]

That's true, BobG.
I wonder if the new book will have all the crime scene photos?

[dalcanton]

Kat, thanks for the info about the handkerchief article in The Hatchet. I definitely will read this!

[Kat]

You're welcome!

This comes at the end of the trial- notice the handkerchief was retained and presented into evidence:

"The following articles which had been offered in evidence during the progress of the trial were selected from among the exhibits in the case by counsel and sent to the jury:

Plans and photographs marked as exhibits in the case.
Skulls of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Borden.
Bedspread and pillow shams.
Handkerchief found by Mrs. Borden's body.
Piece of door frame taken from inside of dining-room.
Piece of moulding taken from guest chamber west of dressing case.

Page 1928

Piece of plaster.
Two axes.
Claw hammer hatchet.
Hatchet with plain head.
Handleless hatchet and bit of wood.
Blue blouse and dress skirt.
White skirt.
Magnifying glass.

(At eighteen minutes before four o'clock the Court retired from the bench.)


Page 1929

At twenty-eight minutes before five o'clock the judges resumed their seats and the jury were brought in.

--I left in the part where we find out how much time the jury was out deliberating. Always useful knowledge...

Here is a partial list of what was buried in the yard behind the barn on Friday under the direction of Morse:

Witness Statements
Chase
42
"...1 sofa pillow and tidy, one large piece of Brussels carpet, one roll of cotton batting, one sheet and several pieces of cotton cloth, three towels, one napkin, one chemise, one dress., one pair drawers, one skirt, two aprons, one hair braid and several pieces of hair from Mrs. Borden’s head from five to eight inches long, one neck tie, one truss, one piece of black silk braid or watch guard.

I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to be a piece of Mrs. Borden’s skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan.

About the middle of the next week Dr. Dolan ordered all the articles dug up. After taking out pieces of clothing and of the carpet, they were ordered buried again. This time they were all put in a box."

Note the "cotton cloth" and "3 towels" and "1 napkin."
We've speculated as to whether this white crumpled thing in the photo was one of these?

[taosjohn]

At the time of the murders/trial, it was questioned how an innocent Lizzie (if inside the house at the time that her stepmother was being killed) couldn't have heard a 200-lb Abby fall to the floor with a thud.

One final point/question from the threads I have reviewed so far:

It is established that a person falling in the guest room can be heard all over the house. But how loud is the sound in the places which would have been occupied?

That is, is it loud as dropping a book, or is it loud as dropping a microwave? The house can't have library-quiet that morning, can it-- doors opening and closing, shutters and windows likewise, the stove door opening and closing, windows rattling under the assault of brush and dippersful of water... plus any noises coming from the street or the neighboring houses?

The scrabbling and whacking or at least the thud of the murder must have been heard, I would think. But is it reasonable to expect them to have been distinguished from the regular noises of the day?

If so, then we have something which would suggest guilt on the part of Lizzie or Bridget or both pretty strongly. Either that or the accepted time of death must be way off...

[taosjohn]

Here is a partial list of what was buried in the yard behind the barn on Friday under the direction of Morse:

Witness Statements
Chase
42
"...1 sofa pillow and tidy, one large piece of Brussels carpet, one roll of cotton batting, one sheet and several pieces of cotton cloth, three towels, one napkin, one chemise, one dress., one pair drawers, one skirt, two aprons, one hair braid and several pieces of hair from Mrs. Borden’s head from five to eight inches long, one neck tie, one truss, one piece of black silk braid or watch guard.[/color]

Note the "cotton cloth" and "3 towels" and "1 napkin."
We've speculated as to whether this white crumpled thing in the photo was one of these?

Hmm-- just noticed the item I have underlined on this list of buried items. A "roll of cotton batting" in 1892 would not have looked anything like what it does today. It would have looked something like these:



Not sure what Abby would have been using it for-- Bridget said she used a kerchief for dusting, didn't she?-- but that sure looks like the white thing lying by the body to me...

[Curryong]

The thing in the photograph reminds me more of a bunched up napkin than anything else, I have to say, but there's been a lot of argument about that object! A napkin was among the items listed. Surely the undertaker or the doctors would have been more likely to use rolls of cotton batting, especially in the clearing up process? Bridget inferred that Abby used Andrew's old silk hankies as dusters, though you wouldn't think silk would be very efficient as a dust collector.

Everyone who has been to that B. and B. has emphasised how small the house is. When you look at photographs of the tiny distance between the guest room and Lizzie's bedroom (it also shows it on the house plans), then even if Abby had crumpled onto her knees first and then down completely, rather than falling like a tree, the noise would have been heard. In her first statements to Fleet and others Lizzie spoke of being upstairs much of the time. She later changed her story to sitting in the kitchen. However, if Lizzie had been in her bedroom, even with the door shut, even with the sounds of the street and of Bridget's washing of the windows, she would have heard something.

[irina]

I don't think there was much if any noise from Abby falling. Among other things the floor was carpeted. Certain noises are simply ignored when people live in a small area. I doubt any noise would have been sufficient to attract attention.

I noted the roll of cotton batting in the list before and assumed it was something the doctors used. For example cotton could be used to plug various body orifices on corpses. It is still done today. Cotton could have been used to clean blood from around wounds. I have heard of medical cotton referred to as cotton batting. The blob in the picture appears to me to be somewhat stiff and have a definite edge. The edge to me looks almost scalloped like a handkerchief.

If the blob was batting it could indicate Abby was doing some sewing project or repairing something. We are of the general opinion that she went back upstairs to put the finishing touches on the room, and that was it, though Lizzie mentioned the possibility of sewing work on pillow cases.Considering why Abby went back to the guest room after she had already cleaned it, I wonder if she was simply returning the wash basin and or pitcher after Uncle John had used them? Were they taken to the kitchen for cleaning or refilling? Would they have been left empty before the company on Monday? If there was no company as some suggest, surely the pitcher would have been emptied. Surely it would have been filled when Uncle John came?

Cotton batting could have been used to polish oil into furniture. A mention was made in testimony or a drawer on the bureau being warped and unable to close fully. Perhaps the piece needed some good furniture polish/oil.

[taosjohn]

Everyone who has been to that B. and B. has emphasised how small the house is. When you look at photographs of the tiny distance between the guest room and Lizzie's bedroom (it also shows it on the house plans), then even if Abby had crumpled onto her knees first and then down completely, rather than falling like a tree, the noise would have been heard.

Oh I accept that absolutely. My question was, when heard, would a listener identify it as something unusual, or would they write it off to a door or shutter slamming or the like? To make much of it we need to be sure that it would not only be heard, but questioned...

[Curryong]

Whether Lizzie noticed something unusual that morning would depend, I suppose, on whether she was in her room at the time Abby was killed. If there was an intruder surely Abby would have managed one scream, or initially made for the door running, and the man must have made some noise. As the killing would have taken a matter of minutes not hours, then those noises plus Abby falling would, you would think, have brought Lizzie to the guest room to investigate. It depends where she was in this scenario, doesn't it? If we believe her testimony, not her early statements, she spent a lot of time in the kitchen waiting for her flats to warm up. In that case I agree about carpets muffling everything and outside noises taking over. Anything bar a nearby scream may well have been ignored.

That is a good point about the pitcher and jug. If John had been clean-shaven then, as was usual, the servant would have brought up a jug of hot water for his shave. As Morse had a beard that wasn't necessary. However, I'm certain that Abby, as a good hostess, would have offered a pitcher and basin of cold water, as well as soap and a towel. Whether John availed himself of these facilities is another question!

[irina]

If Abby falling made any noise it would likely have been one or two sounds. Knees and upper body/ forehead or perhaps the forehead didn't make any sound. Since I process meat scraps on a chopping block with a hatchet for pet food, I can say that chopping meat on a block hardly makes any noise. I would assume ...uh...well you know...on the human head would make less noise than scraps on a block.

It is very important how something sounds to the listener. The sewing machine was in the guest room. I assume it was a treadle. The sound of those old machinea was thump THUMP, thump THUMP, thump THUMP. If Lizzie heard one thump she may have thought sewing machine, but hearing no more may have dismissed the one sound. (She testified she did not hear the sewing machine being worked.)

I guess one of my houses is around the size of the Borden house, minus cellar and third floor. My husband when he was old, had a balance problem so I feared him falling in his upstairs office. Amazingly a metal file drawer sliding shut sounded like a total catastrophe down stairs. On a rare occasion when he would lose balance it was a gentle, easily ignored sound as his knees connected to the floor. There were other various innocent noises that sent me scuttling upstairs to check. Had I not been concerned I would have ignored all those things and had no recollection from day to day what I had heard or not.

[debbiediablo]

Our daughter with autism vacuumed her deck (she dislikes sand tracked from the drive into the kitchen) and then left the Dyson cord unwound where I tripped over it a few weeks ago. My arms were occupied with grocery bags as I fell forward like a felled tree. On wood, not carpet. And the sound was minimal, so minimal that the people inside the kitchen door didn't hear a thing. Her house has 10 foot ceilings on the first floor, and I can hear her moving about on carpet when she's directly above me but not when she's in the NE upstairs and I'm in the SW downstairs. So I think it depends on where Bridget and Lizzie were located when Abby bit the dust.

[Aamartin]

Our daughter with autism vacuumed her deck (she dislikes sand tracked from the drive into the kitchen) and then left the Dyson cord unwound where I tripped over it a few weeks ago. My arms were occupied with grocery bags as I fell forward like a felled tree. On wood, not carpet. And the sound was minimal, so minimal that the people inside the kitchen door didn't hear a thing. Her house has 10 foot ceilings on the first floor, and I can hear her moving about on carpet when she's directly above me but not when she's in the NE upstairs and I'm in the SW downstairs. So I think it depends on where Bridget and Lizzie were located when Abby bit the dust.

I think it depends on the dwelling as well. I could scream bloody murder in my living room and unless the windows were open-- and someone was passing by-- no one would hear unless they were in the adjacent dining room. I can blare my music in the kitchen and it can't be heard in the living room and barely in the dining room-- but very clearly in the master bath. (I think through the plumbing, believe it or not.)

However, if someone was in any of my upstairs bedrooms and nodded off in bed and dropped a book they were reading-- I would hear it in any room but the kitchen. And that is only because in the 80's the house was renovated and an entire new kitchen was built on-- and there is nothing above it.

[Curryong]

Postby Shelley » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:33 am
A thud is heard in the sitting room, diningroom, front hall and parlor- but not in the kitchen. We've done this experiment maybe 100 or more times. People love to listen for it. Of course, it may be far more likely that poor Abby went down in stages, not just a body slam from a complete vertical. Contusions on the forehead and nose could have come from the repeat blows from the back, banging her head into the floor.
http://lizziebordenwarpsandwefts.com\

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Shelley

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[Curryong]

The above was from earlier in the thread. Shelley was of course a guide at the Borden house B and B for several years. She does mention the downstairs quarters but the room next to the guest room (Lizzie's) isn't.

[Aamartin]

I believe if Abby went down totally-- it would have been heard in the house. Lizzie did not place herself outside during that time period.

[taosjohn]

I believe if Abby went down totally-- it would have been heard in the house. Lizzie did not place herself outside during that time period.

But I am not questioning whether it was loud enough to be heard.

I am looking to confirm that, if heard, it could be distinguished from doors closing, the stove being closed, shutters being closed, windows being opened, freight levitating and falling as wagons hit bumps in the street, etc. Would the sound be "can't miss it obviously out of place," or might a preoccupied person fail to register it at all?

Shelley, having been present for the tests mentioned must have some idea? I was hoping to draw an opinion from someone who has heard the test sounds...

Failure to notice gunshots nearby at 1 am February 3rd requires explanation; failure to notice gunshots at sunset July 4th, not so much.

[Curryong]

The trouble is, none of us currently posting have been to the Borden house. Shelley was present a lot and wrote that the sound could be heard in most of the downstairs rooms, bar the kitchen. (They usually get someone of Abby's size to play the 'victim'.) I re-posted her response above. Why not email her and see what she says?

irina has experience of people falling (her elderly husband) and she posted on that. I don't think that the conditions of 1892 can be re-created, (wagons etc.) Maybe a bit of time travel?!!! We also don't know where Lizzie was within the house at the time of Abby's death (if we knew precisely when that was.)

I don't think that Lizzie, if she was in her room sewing or reading, would have been so preoccupied that she wouldn't have noted a thump in the next room, or for that matter, two people coming upstairs. Have you seen the photos of the proximity of the two rooms!! If she was in the kitchen waiting for her irons she wouldn't have heard anything.

I really think that the experiments at the B. and B. are the best that can be done in the circumstances. People know that a murder was done so they are alert to the noise of the thump and are waiting for it. There's nothing really that can be done about that. There have been modern murders in which witnesses say "I did hear something strange but I dismissed it at the time." However, they are not usually sitting in the next room (with no passageway between) idly sewing on a tab!

[irina]

I posted something a little less to the point than what Taos John posted just above but his blocked mine in the posting. It isn't even all about the loudness or quality of noise. It has to do with what would Lizzie respond to; consider important enough to respond to? I don't think we can overlook Bridget washing windows with her brush, either. That likely made a lot of noise inside the house. All together, short of Abby screaming or calling out, I don't think there would have been enough noise of an impelling nature, to have attracted Lizzie to come to Abby's rescue~even if Abby had been Lizzie's best friend in the world.

[phineas]

If an Abby falls in the forest...is there a sound?
Sorry.
There is also the sound of murder - sickening sounds, I imagine. If next door basting a seam, you're going to hear that. And although the dresser was undisturbed, there might have been bumping against the bed. If not a cry, then footsteps, muffled movements on carpet, creaks of floors, thumps of pounding, a body shifting. At least 60 seconds of killing if not more.

[Curryong]

Yes, Phineas, I agree. Even if there was no scream, IF Lizzie was in the next room there would have been strange sounds very dissimilar to the thump of a sewing machine or one woman moving about doing a bit of dusting. Unusual enough, I would think, to require investigation.

[irina]

I don't agree. I think if the killer was determined, perhaps an accomplished criminal of some kind, I think there would have been little sound that would get attention, even in the room next door. My opinion. Could be wrong but it makes sense. There are lots of left over, discarded pumpkins about now. Take a hatchet and whack on one. I don't believe the killer swung the hatchet hard. I think medium blows, not straight up and down like one chops wood. I think the hatchet was swung across the body, at an angle, both right to left and left to right, but very few up and down strokes. Try it upstairs between a bed & the wall and see how it sounds near and far, upstairs and down. I think a pumpkin shell would actually make more sound than flesh.

[Curryong]

You think that Abby would make no sound if a criminal had followed her through the house from the side door, through the kitchen, sitting or dining rooms and up the stairs? I think Abby would certainly sense this and run to where there was another person. If that was Lizzie in her room then so be it!

I believe that to the best of her ability she would have run. She would certainly have screamed her head off at one stage. Lizzie said she wasn't in her room for much of the time between her stepmother's disappearance and her father's return. It's not quite clear from her muddled inquest testimony exactly where she was, but if she was sitting in the kitchen she would certainly have seen and heard activity.

If Lizzie was in the cellar when the man came in and then came upstairs while the stranger was killing Abby, then noted no sounds whatsoever (from only a few yards away) of a brutal murder, with Abby remaining completely silent and the killer ditto, that's a very remarkable occurrence. Not to mention Lizzie being an extremely lucky woman. This was especially so after he left and went downstairs. Male footsteps going down the stairs but still no investigation by Lizzie.

Professional killers too, don't get annoyed and aggressive about being told off about pears, even if there was any evidence that Abby was in the back yard that morning. In fact everything points to her having gone into the guest room early and never leaving it alive.

[irina]

It's possible Abby knew the killer. It's possible she tried to talk her way out of a situation. Possibly she felt secure to handle an unwanted person in her house. Who knows? I got my throat cut a few years ago (with a very dull, ineffective weapon, whatever it was). I didn't scream. I was too busy trying to figure out my situation. There also wasn't anyone real close to hear a scream. Psychopathic criminals have ways to put victims at ease or to get control over victims. "If you keep quiet I won't have to kill your whole family..." "Mr. Borden told me to get Mr. Morse' wallet he forgot under the mattress..." Lots of possibilities.

[Curryong]

Surely someone in the next room would hear a scream, considering how close the doors were? If Abby tried to talk her way out of things wouldn't Lizzie wonder who she was talking to, and then wouldn't Lizzie hearing a strange male voice answering, investigate?

Did males have wallets in those days? I suppose they had pocket book-type items didnt they?