What great questions.
I see two totally different things happening to Lizzie. If her mother had lived I think her life would have been alot more normal. I think that seeing Andrew married for love the first time I think that Sarah would have softened & influenced Andrew concerning how the girls were brought up. Also I think it would have been possible that Sarah would have encouraged them to have boyfriends and get married.
In the second question. Oh boy!!! I can see the hatred just growing and the arguments continue for a long time. I think if Andrew then died first there would be a huge battle over his money & I'm sure a court case. I can't imagine how horrible it would have been to live there in such disharmony.
Well, hard to know - if it was true that Sarah Borden had "spells" was dark and moody and suffered ill health as she is said to have, then life may not have been too happy for Lizzie and she would have been miserable nursing an invalid mother. I wonder if Alice had lived maybe that element might have changed the outcome
If the killer had chickened out, I think life would have droned on until Andrew died-then there may have been a real mash-up to see who got what! Maybe Mrs. Borden would have gotten the axe- one way or another then!
If Sarah had lived I think Lizzie would have had the nurturing she needed. Andrew, who had married for love, would have lead a "normal" life. He would have wanted to see his girls happy,Sarah, Emma and Lizzie. Emma would not have been a substitute mother to Lizzie and would have been able to sociailize with girls and boys her own age. She would have met and marries someone. Lizzie, being the youngest, would have been spoiled. especially after her sister died. I don't see her marrying, but leading an interesting life doing much travelling. Now if the murderer had not followed through I see a life of more turmoil. It is even possible that Emma and Lizzie would have eventually moved out. When Andrew died, the girls would have decided to live on their own. Abby was not the meanie she has been portrayed and would give the girls a living allownace. Sarah would have lived an average life, accustomed to being thrifty. They all would have reaped the financial benefits of Andrews hard work. When Abby died most of the money would go to Emma and Lizzie, with a bequest to Abby's step-sister and niece.
I tend to agree about the sickly Sarah. If Sarah had lived, but ill, that certainly would have coloured the home life of the Bordens. And yes, if Alice had lived, that would have changed the birth order, which is a concept that some people might see as an influence.
This idea that comes up in 21st century speculation- that the girls could just move out and create their own household doesn't quite take into account 19th century mores. Women were chattel and belonged to men and had no real usefullness in society as spinsters- no standing, no real respect, other than what might be due them because of their station in life, which depends upon their "man"- father or husband.. They were in an odd situation as well- daughters of a somewhat rich father, yet living in an unostentatious lifestyle. That would confuse a potential beau.
If Sarah had lived it's hard to say what Lizzie's life would've been like. We know so little about her. She was sickly, and was known to have spells of moodiness, but would she also have been a bigger influence on Lizzie since she was her natural mother and not a step mother? Would she have put her foot down more on Lizzie and Emma's behalf? Could she have insisted that Andrew buy those nicer things they longed for? Could having someone to commiserate with besides Emma have changed Lizzie's personality? Would he have been able to refuse his sickly wife? There are so many things to ponder.
If the killer had chickened out that day, I think that before long they would've gotten to that same boiling point again. The next time I don't think they would've found someone to do the deed if they couldn't themselves. If they had gotten to the mind set once of actually conceiving of murder, I think they would've found their situation pretty desperate.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I would like to have seen Lizzie join the Bohemians. They may not have been so uptight, and restrictive. Her opinions may have counted for something. I have to wonder if an air conditioner may have helped on Aug 4th, or at least some fans. I agree that Emma and Lizzie would most likely have distanced from Abby had Andrew died a few years later. The sisters would think up something. Maybe doc could say they had "allergies" and required their own home. Better still, that they were "naturists" and needed Dr. Kellogs "road to wellville." Emma may have balked at that, but, you never know.
snokkums @ Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:49 am wrote:As for the first question, I think Lizzie probably would have been something of a nursemaid. I think she would have been close to her mother.
As for the second, knowing the way her mother was, I don't think she would have chickened out.
I agree with you on both counts, Snokks. I think Lizzie was looking forward to hatchet day. I feel she had been planning it for some time.
If Lizzie's mom had not died we probably would have never heard of Lizzie Andrew Borden.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
Kat @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:44 am wrote:Women were chattel and belonged to men and had no real usefullness in society as spinsters- no standing, no real respect, other than what might be due them because of their station in life, which depends upon their "man"- father or husband.
Single women, spinsters, were working women---teachers especially. I wouldn't necessarily call them as having no standing or respect if unmarried.
Also, I bet then, like now, there was a sense of personal freedom in being single and not expected to take care of any man or child. It wasn't "acceptable" perhaps, but the idea that women who were unmarried their whole lives and might have been joyful about that is probably true too.
It could be an early movement for women's emancipation---or a way for a woman to empower herself in the marketplace by earning a living with her own sweat.
Being single has great advantages in society and life. Besides, just because a woman is single all her days doesn't mean she doesn't have a rich and rewarding sex life.
Even today, spinsters have not much value in society- youth will always win out.
Being a teacher back in the 19th century was not that much status- and the pay was pretty bad compared to men as well. Someone like Lizzie, born in 1860, only half-way thru that 19th century would have been formed under those influences, I believe. She would not be able to shrug that off very easily just because it is 1901. I think she stayed pretty old-fashioned- as I think the same, but more so- of Emma.
In a way, I think she would have killed her mother. It's with the attitude of "I'm putting my mother out of her misery. And then we all can have a normal life."
I think she would probably killed her father because she might have thought he was tight and would notfork over the cash.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
snokkums @ Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:19 am wrote:In a way, I think she would have killed her mother. It's with the attitude of "I'm putting my mother out of her misery. And then we all can have a normal life."
I think she would probably killed her father because she might have thought he was tight and would notfork over the cash.
Are you refering to Lizzie's birth mother or step-mother, Snokks?
I can see Lizzie killing her father for the money, and I think she probably did, but I can't see her killing her birth mother, but I can understand her killing Abby.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
Her real mother. I have always heard that she wasn't in to good of health. I think maybe Lizzie would have thought she at peace now, resting, if she killed her.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
I tend to believe that the motive for the crimes had more to do with assuring that Abby and/or Abby's family would not benefit from the Borden fortune, and killing Andrew assured that Lizzie and Emma would control it. I don't think any murders would have occurred if Sarah had lived on. I think Lizzie's hatred for Abby was so great that Lizzie simply didn't care anymore about her personal freedom or her life. If Lizzie killed Abby and Andrew, she couldn't have known she would get away with it, but she was willing to take the chance. If Lizzie had been convicted, at least Emma would keep the fortune under Borden control. I think Andrew's murder was an afterthought, there was no way to foresee an opportunity to kill him. If Andrew had not been killed and Lizzie had been convicted, it was still a success because it left Andrew with Emma as a successor.
If Sarah had lived, there would have been no threat of the Borden fortune being shared with anyone else. Abby would always be the "pretender" in Lizzie and Emma's eyes, and Abby's sister had begun giving children the middle name "Borden".
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
If Sarah had lived, I think that both Lizzie and Emma would have been quite different than the women they were. I think both if these women missed the nurturing of their biological mother. Lizzie would not have been entirely dependent on Emma for parental love, nurturing, and understanding. She would have grown into a loving human being who would have gotten married and had children of her own.
It seems to me that Emma was very attached to Sarah, and probably took on the role of nursemaid when her mother had her 'spells'. Perhaps this is why Sarah asked Emma to 'take care of baby Lizzie'. I also think that subconsciously Emma may have resented being put in this adult role, at such a young age, for which she apparently felt responsible to carry out until she moved out of Maplecroft. Perhaps one of the reasons Emma felt the need to leave Malpecroft was because she was no longer needed, by Lizzie, in the role of 'mother'. If Sarah had lived, Emma would have been a loving woman who focused on her own life, gotten married, and had her own children to take care of, instead of spending the majority of her life 'taking care of baby Lizzie', who grew up and didn't need her anymore.
If the killer had chickened out and the murders had not occurred on August 4th, 1892, then, I think, the killer would have committed the murders on another day. If things had gotten out of control once, they would have gotten out of control again.
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
That's an interesting idea about Emma no longer being needed in the role of "mother" to Lizzie. Maybe Lizzie didn't want to be the "child" any longer, and that had something to do with the murders.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
If I recall correctly in Victorian times the youngest daughter was the child who was sacrificed and stayed home and took care of the parents in their old age- and was an unmarried daughter- Queen Victoria didn't speak to her youngest daughter Beatrice for months when Beatrice informed her mother that she wanted to marry Henry of Barttenberg - her future husband...so keeping with that custom AND Sarah had lived to a ripe old age...we would have Emma being the "happily" married daughter and Lizzie remaining at home caring for her parents. YIKES!
"It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." ~ Albus Dumbledore
