Hiding place

[Angel]

Why is it never suggested by anyone that (if there was an outside killer) he could have hidden very comfortably in the parlor? No one ever used the room, and, certainly, no one in the family would have thought to go in there in the morning while they were busy with their daily routine. Or, has it been discussed, and I've missed this?

[mbhenty]

Yes ANGEL: I have thought of the Parlor.

As a little boy, I loved to hide. I found all sorts of places to hide, under a table, behind the sofa, closets being my favorite. Mom would look for me and I would be in the closet under some clothing. Though she would look for me in there she would not see me. As a child I thought that the fact she missed me was great fun.

So I thought of where one could hide in the parlor, though other than furnishings, the pickin's are few.

One place he cold EASILY hide is behind the parlor door........the one leading in from the hallway. With that door in the open position he could easily stand behind it and not be seen, even if someone looked into the room.

[Angel]

He wouldn't really have had to hide behind anything, would he? The door was always kept closed and/or locked, and no one used it for daily activities.

[mbhenty]

Yes, Hmm? I think you are right. I think I heard somewhere that that room was kept locked, that is was Abby"s special place to entertain.

If that is true, if that room was always locked, once Abby was dead the killer could have safely hid in that room.

Of course, I subscribe to the "Outside Killer" scenario; with the help of Lizzie, who could not bear to be in the house when her father was killed and waited outside, in the yard and barn.

If he/she did hide in the "locked" parlor, they could have done so with Lizzie's help. Though locked I am sure Lizzie knew how to find the key.

[SteveS.]

By "outside killer" scenario are we talking hired assassin here? Do you think it was someone Lizzie knew or just a hired assassin for money?

[mbhenty]

Yes, STEVES:

When I talk of an outside killer I am thinking that Lizzie planned it, knew about it, paid for it, allowed it, etc. Pick your reason.

I think that there is not enough said about the countless places someone could have hid.

There were numerous places that someone could hide, not excluding the cellar and barn. And, if Lizzie was in on it, and orchestrated the hiding......well, it would be that much easier for the killer to find a place to wait and conceal him/herself.

There's also the possibility that Bridget saw the sinister guest and was told by Lizzie to ignore him/her and go about her business; to say nothing.

There is so much we do not know.

If the truth was known, it would probably be a scenario no one ever thought of.

As it stands now, it is a fable that will be talked about and guessed at for ages to come.

Though the possibility that the killer hid in the Parlor is a workable scenario, there are many other places that would easily shroud someone for the length of time it took to bring the crime to fruition.

[nbcatlover]

I've thought of the parlour many times as well. I know at least one source put Lizzie in charge of straightening that room. I am not aware of the police needing a key to check the parlour after the murders.

With the room's 2 doors, there is access to the front door, the front stairs, and also, directly into the sitting room. The killer could have sat in comfort in the time between the 2 murders.

[Yooper]

We know with 20/20 hindsight that the parlor was more or less overlooked, but an intruder would not know that unless he was aware of the family routine. Even then, it would likely be more than someone would be willing to leave to chance, given the gravity of the purpose for their visit. I doubt if an intruder unknown to anyone would choose the parlor as a hideout.

If Lizzie was aware of, or the cause of, an intruder's presence, there would be little need for hiding, depending upon when the intruder arrived. He would have to hide before killing Abby, and not again until Bridget came in the house and Andrew arrived. He might have eaten breakfast at the dining room table under those circumstances!

[augusta]

Good topic, Angel. No, I don't think it's been discussed on here - at least not much.

About 11-ish the night of August 3, the neighbors heard noise on the order of someone coming over the Borden fence. It could have been the killer. Funny everybody was in bed at the Bordens by that time. Did he know that? I think he slept in the barn until dawn's early light. Or Lizzie could have snuck him up to Emma's room. The 'girls' used a different staircase than the Mr. and Mrs. Nobody would have known anyone was in Emma's room, and Lizzie would have direct control over his movements.

There are two stories on whether someone slept in the barn or not (of course!). Both from The Sourcebook, one says they found a pile of hay in there, undisturbed. The other says there was an outline of a person laying down that left an imprint on the hay.

After killing Abby, I don't see why the killer couldn't have just stayed in the guest room, waiting for an opportunity to sneak out. Or waiting for Andrew. Nobody was gonna look in that guest room. Didn't you have to use a different staircase to get to the guest room, than to get to the 'girls' rooms?

If so, when Bridget went up to the attic, the killer could have gotten downstairs. Did Bridget use the staircase other than the one guest room people used?

That's it - isn't it, mb? Lizzie could not stand to be in the house when her father was killed. That strikes me as a simple truth.

It appears as if the killer left by the back door, since it was wide open when Lizzie came from the barn. The killer must have folded the coat he had on and put it 'neath Andrew's head. Where or where was DNA back then? Or why didn't they even keep the coat? Maybe today it could have told us if both Abby and Andrew's blood was on the coat. And give us fingerprints, maybe. What was done with that coat?

[Angel]

Didn't you have to use a different staircase to get to the guest room, than to get to the 'girls' rooms?

No- the guest room is next to the girls' rooms in the front of the house.

[snokkums]

Why is it never suggested by anyone that (if there was an outside killer) he could have hidden very comfortably in the parlor? No one ever used the room, and, certainly, no one in the family would have thought to go in there in the morning while they were busy with their daily routine. Or, has it been discussed, and I've missed this?

My big problem is if it were an outside killer, regardless of where the person hid, the person left two living witnesses. So, if it was an outside job and the person left two people living, that would mean that Lizzie or Bridget knew the killer and it was a conspiracy or something. But you do have a good point of he could have hidden in the parlor because noone used it.

[BedfordCord]

I don't think there could have been anyone hiding in the parlor since, in one of the testimonies, Lizzie asked Bridget to shut the parlor blinds once she was done washing the windows since it got so hot in there. Unless Lizzie was sending Bridget into the parlor where she knew a murderer would dispatch her, I dont think it would have been a good hiding spot. Bridget would have seen them when she went in to close the blinds/wash the windows that day.

[Chichibcc]

There are two stories on whether someone slept in the barn or not (of course!). Both from The Sourcebook, one says they found a pile of hay in there, undisturbed. The other says there was an outline of a person laying down that left an imprint on the hay.

I don't think anyone (Lizzie, nor anyone else) had been in the barn that day-based on Edward Radin's research, no footprints found in the hayloft, according to one of the officers who went up there to check it out after Lizzie said she'd supposedly been up there.

From the "History of the Crimes" page: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary.htm

It was revealed in later testimony that as soon as an officer learned of her story, he visited the hayloft and saw no footprints in the heavy dust on the floor, although his own shoe impressions were clearly visible when he moved about.

So I think Lizzie made up that story about being in the barn, and even if someone else could have had been there, how could they have done so without leaving footprints, if the floor was so dusty?