New Here/Arnold Brown

lynneverhart1 · Post by **lynneverhart1** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:22 pm

Hi Everyone,
After reading everything on here for months and then reading every available book this summer on the case, including the sourcebooks, I know some, maybe most, on here discredit the Arnold Brown book. When I read that book, I found it fascinating, as it made sense to me as to how the murders could have occurred with Lizzie knowing yet no evidence on her. Can people tell me why this is not a plausible theory? Is it because there is not firm evidence that Andrew had this illegitimate son, let alone that that this son did the killing?
I am originally from Mass., and plan a visit back next summer. Do people here think a visit to the Borden house it worth a side trip? Sorry to start a new thread being so new, I don't usually do something like this, but I, like so many others here, am just fascinated with this case.
Thanking everyone in advance,
Lynn

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:17 pm

The Borden Bed & Breakfast is more than worth the side trip. You should try to stay there. To be in the actual room where the crimes were committed is quite a feeling. Even if you don't stay there try to get in on one of the house tours. I've been hooked ever since.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:19 pm

Andrew did not have that son. Much of the rest of the story is created from bent, twisted or completely fabricated "facts."

Like most other conspiracy theories, far too many people (on both the prosecution and defense sides in this case) have to be in on it to make it work.

It is far easier to believe that Lizzie did it, stayed relatively clean and calm, lied, and got away with it than it is to believe the complex mess that Brown proposes.

SummerCodSuz · Post by **SummerCodSuz** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:20 pm

Hi Lynn,
Welcome from another newbie. I haven't read the book you're asking about (yet) so I can't make an educated reply. However, I have visited the Borden house and can say it is well worth visiting. The only drawback is the tour doesn't include the basement which was where I was most wanting to get to see. I was told you have to be a B&B guest to see the basement. But the rest of the tour was quite interesting!

lynneverhart1 · Post by **lynneverhart1** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:42 am

I want to thank you all for taking the time to reply. FairhavenGuy, I know that most people, esp. here, do not believe or like Brown's book. Maybe I was looking for a solution after reading everything else and I was willing to consider it. But I must go by the people here who have immersed themselves in this case for years, you know best.
Also, thank you Nadzieja and SummerCodSuz for your helpful info on staying the house and staying there.
One of the things that tend to make me think Lizzie did do it, is the fact she never spoke of the murders again (maybe once to a friend, I believe).
If she was truly innocent, wouldn't she have asked the police or detectives at least once in a while, "Are there any leads? Are you still looking for who did this? I want to know who murdered my father and stepmother! I want justice!" But no, nothing like that out of her.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:46 am

Hi Lynn,

Welcome to the forum. It would be well worth the side trip. And I think you did the same thing I did when I first joined-- reading everything in sight and then some!

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:57 am

This is why even "newbies" are an important part of this forum----new ideas & questions. You know that is something I never thought of, why didn't Lizzie ever check back with the police about new leads in the case. At least we don't know (or I should say I don't know) if she ever talked to them again.
However given her stay in jail she probably wanted to stay as far away from the police as possible.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:54 am

That house just feels comfortable to me! It's the most homey feeling staying there- more so than anywhere else I have ever stayed- even relative's homes!

We must be careful not-to-throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater, when it comes to Arnold Brown's book.
Have you read the "Family Secrets" story that Linda Andrade-Rodrigues did that we reprinted in The Hatchet? Nov/Dec 2007. It is Pete Peterson's (original) version of the story that Brown told.

William Borden's sister- or aunt- I forget which, had an illegitimate child and had been in the asylum as well. It seemed to me that Brown may have borrowed that info and put it on Andrew. Not fair to besmirch Andrew's name when he can't defend himself.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:19 pm

It must also be said that to many of us who have been on the forum for years, the Arnold Brown story becomes closely connected to a former (banned) member of the forum who was a Brown fanatic.

No matter what line of questioning came up, this fellow would butt in with the claim that whatever was being discussed was pointless cause ol' Arnold had solved the case and further discussion was simply a waste of time.

Many of us got to be very good a disputing the various Brownisms that this member would spout.

Brown was a good writer and presented his story in a convincing manner. Unfortunately, much of the basis of the story was simply made up. The rest was created by grossly twisting some facts or portraying them in a misleading way.

lynneverhart1 · Post by **lynneverhart1** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:22 pm

Thank you all for bearing with me!
Kat, you are correct, it was William Borden himself and another relative or two that were in asylums. So it is agreed William Borden is no relation whatsoever of Andrew Borden, right?
Also, what struck me as very strange, one book or Sourcebook stated that Emma had never been away from home at all until those days she was at Fairhaven. That was good timing there, huh? And where does William Morse fit in, if at all, did he know anything and help cover, or know nothing, and once again, his visiting was just a coincidence?
And even though the Borden Home is highly recommended, I don't know if I could ever pay $200 or more to spend a night!

SummerCodSuz · Post by **SummerCodSuz** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:25 am

Lynn,
The B&B has guided tours too - I might be wrong but I think it's $12. I haven't stayed overnight nor have any inclination to do so but I did enjoy the tour. The only drawback is only B&B customers can see the cellar and I was very disappointed about that. Still the tour was worth the money and I'm happy I went and might go back next year.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:11 pm

I'd pony up the $200 in a heartbeat...but I would never get my husband to go. It's hard enough to get him off the couch, let alone travel from FL to Fall River. Now since he's a chef, and Emeril is from there, he MIGHT be inclined....but on the other hand, nahhh.

Oh, well, the best I can hope for is to one day make a miniature of the the Second Street house. Seems like it might be an interesting miniature house to build.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:40 pm

lynneverhart1 @ Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:22 pm wrote:Thank you all for bearing with me!
Kat, you are correct, it was William Borden himself and another relative or two that were in asylums. So it is agreed William Borden is no relation whatsoever of Andrew Borden, right?
Also, what struck me as very strange, one book or Sourcebook stated that Emma had never been away from home at all until those days she was at Fairhaven. That was good timing there, huh? And where does William Morse fit in, if at all, did he know anything and help cover, or know nothing, and once again, his visiting was just a coincidence?
And even though the Borden Home is highly recommended, I don't know if I could ever pay $200 or more to spend a night!

Do you mean John V. Morse as coming to town as coincidence?
The info from the LBQ about that Tauton asylum where Wm Borden and his aunts? were incarcerated at times, is transcribed at our website, under "The Brown Controversy" I think. I'd put the link but my old laptop cannot go there with all the bells and whistles the site has. This old pokey Apple (shell-shaped) laptop needs an update!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:43 pm

Christopher is right that we tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to a discussion of Mr. Brown's book, due to years of dealing with *Arnold Brown, Jr.*.

lynneverhart1 · Post by **lynneverhart1** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:27 am

Yes Kat, thank you, I did mean John Morse!
I knew from reading here that Brown's book had not been well received. But I did not know the history of the situaton of whom you call Arnold Brown Jr. Sorry to bring up a sore subjuct. Now I know!
And I definitely would take a tour of the house even if I wouldn't spend $200plus to stay overnight. I will be very nearby next August and would love to see it.
I just love this website and this group. Thank you all for being so kind.
Lynn

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:41 am

Hello, Lynn, welcome to the forum!

Arnold Brown's book is not so much the problem as it was dealing with a previous member's constantly referring to it. We discuss any book on the case even when, like Brown's book, it has little facts to support it.

A stay at the B&B adds a great deal to the feel of the case. The house is different from what one imagines from photos and drawings.

Hope you make it someday, SallyG.

Again, welcome, Lynn!

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:41 pm

Yes - to modern apartment-dwelling eyes, it doesn't seem like such a crowded place to live. I bet it was the company more than the space that made it unpleaasant.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:29 pm

Here's the link to the Big Brown Controversy: as opposed to our Little Brown Controversy here!

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResear ... oversy.htm

lynneverhart1 · Post by **lynneverhart1** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:49 pm

Thank you so much, Kat. I am in the middle of reading it now.
I really appreciate you posting this for me to read. I wouldn't have brought up this subject had I known it's past and the bad feelings it stirred!
And thank you snokkums, Harry, Bob Gutowski, SallyG, SummerCodsuz, Nadzieja, FairhavenGuy for all being so nice to a newbie!

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:15 am

The very best dismissal of the theory of ol' Arnold and ol' RayS that I ever read is, I think, attributed to Harry, who wrote something to the effect of having to go and wipe the Brown off his shoe.