Murderer or victim? Public opinion has never changed

DoGeeseSeeGoD · Post by **DoGeeseSeeGoD** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:14 pm

It is the undercurrent of the talks of if Lizzie was guilty or not that we should consider just how tragic it is if she was innocent.

Also strange for anyone of relation to her. If I tell anyone of my relation to her, I seem to be suspect of relation to a murderer. They never think that mayby I am related to a family that was cruely murdered and the daughter blamed for it. How different a picture if one were to think of me being related to a victimized, murdered family!

The foregone reaction I always find if I tell someone that Lizzie is a family cousin, is never one of any possible sympathy, only one of suspicion, and fear of me being related to some insane person. (but some people on the other hand, think it is especially cool! more especially if Lizzie did do it!!!)

SummerCodSuz · Post by **SummerCodSuz** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:09 pm

Hi DoGeeseSeeGoD,
I agree 100%! I happen to think the Ramsays are innocent and have often thought how much more painful it must have been for them (and still is for him) that most people seem to think they are guilty iof murdering their own daughter. The same would be for the Borden family. OTOH even if she was guilty, the rest of the family shouldn't be social outcasts, in a way they're victims, too.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:03 am

Lizzie was acquitted, but things looked "iffy". If she didn't do it, she could have told who she thought did - or maybe told more than she did - to cast blame further away from herself. But she kept silent.

I think it unfair if people treat you in a negative way when they hear you are related to her. I'd be excited to hear it and would ask you what your theory on the murders is. Please share, if you're comfortable.

DoGeeseSeeGoD · Post by **DoGeeseSeeGoD** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:18 pm

I am not closely related to Lizzie,.. and there are many out there with some kind of genealogical relation.

I think what i am going for with my topic, is that any suggestion of relation to Lizzie Borden, when mentioned to others gets almost the same response as announcing a relation to Charles Manson! People take it as some sort of genetic relation to an insane killer!!

Public opinion got skewed a long time ago, and it is hard, even for people today who are into the whole case of Lizzie Borden, to picture the Borden family as victims of homicide! After all,.. it is possible they were. Innocent until proven guilty. I dont know who commited the crime, and no person on earth can prove anything (this site probably wouldnt even exist if someone could!)

I think it difficult, even for people interested in the case, to come to fully embrace the idea that Lizzie (and those related with the Borden surname) - could simply be hapless victims of a cruel and tragic murder. With many Borden's suffering the consequinces of the public trying to blame Lizzie. I guess if that were true, all the intrigue would dissapear, and it would just become one more simple murder.

[BTW... if you were wondering my exact relation, i have at least 6 lines of relation to the original Borden settler in the area. Possibly more with research. Best I can tell is I am an approxamate 5th cousin,.. I'm still working out the lines... I suspect I have close relation to Abby, but her genealogy is harder to find info on.]

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:28 pm

Yes, Lizzie as victim too, if innocent. Even if she had a pretty good idea of who did it- but in her place in life could not accuse- she's still a victim. That's as sad a thought as that she did it and justified it to herself. I know what you mean.
And the true victims- the murdered couple- do tend to get lost in the Legend- and sad too that some make the victim out as somehow deserving to die. It's weird.

Also, with Halloween coming, I still don't see the relation to the crime? Why does Halloween and murdered Bordens go together in some folk's minds?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:08 pm

DoGeeseSeeGoD @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:18 pm wrote:... I think what i am going for with my topic, is that any suggestion of relation to Lizzie Borden, when mentioned to others gets almost the same response as announcing a relation to Charles Manson! People take it as some sort of genetic relation to an insane killer!! ...

I think you are right. Charles Manson's third son, Micheal Brunner, states pretty much the same thing in the following YouTube videos:

The Manson Children - KCBS Special - Parts 1 and 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f035w8eD ... L&index=40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv8vngdC ... L&index=39

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:22 pm

When thinking about the Lizzie case, fairly often I think that if Lizzie was innocent how awful it must have been for her to endure what she did.

I think that is one thing that probably all of us who study the case consider. As well we probably all consider what our own lives would be like if that happened to us. Aquitted of such an a horrible crime but to have much of the public believing that we did it.

The reactions people have when meeting the relative of a killer can be unpredictable just as the reactions of the relatives can be when meeting other people as well. I shall demonstrate in the following personal experience.

When I was about 14 years old we had an axe murder here in town. A stranger who was visiting from out of town was sleeping on a park bench. Apparently he had an arguement with a local man earlier that day. Well the local man went to where the stranger was sleeping and axed him to death. The local man was caught and went to jail for it.

About a year later I met the younger brother of the axe killer. What struck me was the way he introduced himself. As he shook my hand he said his full name, then he said "you've heard of my brother Bill ?" he said it in such a way as I would know his brother's full name. As it was I didn't recall the name of the axe killer, so I said "No". He said "My brother Bill was the one who axed that guy in the Park last year" I said "Ohhhh okay, I know who you mean." I found it a bit unbelievable that this guy would tell me this in the way that he did.

If I were to mention the name of the park that this axe murder took place in and how that park got its name, that would involve another infamous local story. I will save that for later.

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:09 pm

Kat @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:28 pm wrote:Yes, Lizzie as victim too, if innocent. Even if she had a pretty good idea of who did it- but in her place in life could not accuse- she's still a victim. That's as sad a thought as that she did it and justified it to herself. I know what you mean.
And the true victims- the murdered couple- do tend to get lost in the Legend- and sad too that some make the victim out as somehow deserving to die. It's weird.

Also, with Halloween coming, I still don't see the relation to the crime? Why does Halloween and murdered Bordens go together in some folk's minds?

Murder, mayhem, mystery, madness. I always think of old houses, and axe murders at Halloween. Hatchet Harry, Edgar Poe, the executioner, cemeteries, grim reaper. Casper is way down my list. :)