What Mrs. Churchill Would Not Tell

[augusta]

Mrs. Chuchill supposedly knew something that she saw in the Borden house on the day of the murders that she would not tell, not even if they tore her tongue out.

[From The Witness Papers, page 46, Edwin McHenry notes that: "... one George Wiley, a clerk in the Troy Mill is the one who is authority for the statement that Mrs. Churchill made that she (Mrs. Churchill) said, that there was one thing she saw in the house the day of the murder, that she would never repeat, even if they tore her tongue out."]

What do you think it might have been?

I'm gonna guess some blood on Lizzie's hand.

[diana]

That is truly an incendiary statement – and one that surfaces often, but I think it’s a case of considering the source here. And by that I mean McHenry.

He, of course, was the private detective who supplied Boston Globe reporter, Henry Trickey, with a list of so-called prosecution witnesses and the gist of their proposed testimony. This purported ‘testimony’ was filled with sensational details blackening Lizzie Borden’s name and making it appear almost certain she was involved in the murders. But the names and addresses of the so-called witnesses who made these damning claims were fictitious -- they simply didn’t exist. Furthermore, not only were the names of the witnesses fabricated, but there was no apparent basis for virtually any of the accusations implicit in the story. Two days after the original article appeared, the Globe apologized on their front page and admitted the article “never should have been published”. (Boston Globe, October 12, 1892:1)

In light of this, it would be interesting to find out if George Wiley, the Troy Mill clerk existed.

[augusta]

I agree with you, Diana. I had never put this name together with THAT McHenry until after I started posting this thread.

Mrs. Churchill was a blabbermouth - I picture her as. And she dumped Lizzie after the trial. And testified against her. I think she would be up front with anything really shocking that she saw, like Alice Russell with the burning dress.

Why then is it largely accepted that Mrs. McHenry got that interview with Bridget not long after the murders, by going to where Bridget was staying and claiming she was a relative?

[Harry]

The 1892 City Directory lists a George T. Wiley, bookkeeper, working for the Richard Borden Mill and boarding at 7 Lindsey St.

[diana]

Good find, Harry! So there was a George Wiley! One has to wonder if he did, in truth, know Mrs. Churchill -- or if McHenry simply got his name from the City Directory? Wouldn't it be something if we'd been discrediting poor Mr. Wiley by association, so to speak.

Augusta, I'm afraid I've now forgotten more details than I ever knew about the case. I do remember the claim that Nellie McHenry interviewed Bridget under false pretenses, but I think it was only in the bogus Globe article? I could be wrong…

[augusta]

Diana, there was an article on it in one of the FRHS newsletters. That's where I first heard of it. And the Historical Society didn't put any disclaimers up about it, that I remember. It appeared as if they thought it was true, but I might be mistaken. I do find it hard to believe that Mrs. McHenry got in to see Bridget by saying she was a relative and then Bridget spilled her guts to her.

I don't know what newspaper it appeared in, or if it appeared in the bogus one.

We had some discussion on Mrs. McHenry's credability a long time ago, and I think it was Kat that mentioned the McHenrys were divorced, so her credability might not be bad as her ex-husband's.

Great find, Harry!

Did Richard Borden own the Troy Mills?

[Harry]

Actually the alleged Nellie McHenry/Bridget interview letter is contained in the Knowlton papers, HK023, page 33.

The Bridget interview was supposedly on Aug. 19 but the letter dated at the bottom Aug. 25, 6 days later.

It does contain a lot of what Bridget would later say at the Preliminary and Trial. How much was simply available from newspaper reports would have to be studied. Bridget did testify at the Inquest but I assume that testimony was not available to Mrs. McHenry. Whether her husband, a most devious character, somehow read a copy of that Inquest testimony I have no idea. At this point in time the McHenry's were still in good graces with the police.

Even though today Bridget's Inquest testimony is lost, it did exist at one time. Adams, for the defense, tried to secure a copy was shuffled back and forth between Pillsbury and Knowlton and I don't believe he ever did.

[Harry]

Did Richard Borden own the Troy Mills?

Richard B. Borden is listed as Agent and Treasurer of the Troy Cotton and Woolen Manufactory in the 1892 Directory. A fellow by the name of Andrew J. Borden served on the Board of Directors. Thomas S Brayton is listed as president.

If the Troy mill was a public company, which i believe it was, then the shareholders owned the company.

[augusta]

I wonder if Bridget's inquest testimony is locked away in George Robinson's office. If we are unable to see any client/privilege stuff, Bridget's inquest testimony has nothing to do with anything Lizzie told Robinson. Since some at the office have seen the contents of the Robinson/Borden file, they know whether or not Bridget's inquest testimony is in the file. I don't see why people couldn't see that.

Some on the Forum have said that probably Bridget's inquest testimony isn't any different from her preliminary hearing testimony. I agree, but there might be a gem or two in it because it was held closer in time to the crime, and the possibility exists that she might have then recalled a thing or two that she later did not during her subsequent testimonies.

I looked at the Providence Journal on microfische at the Fall River Public Library, hoping that maybe Bridget's inquest testimony may have been printed in there, but no, it wasn't.

Thank you, Harry for citing the Mrs. McHenry interview with Bridget in The Knowlton Papers. You're like a Super Hero - when something seems impossible here, you swoop down and save the day with your expertise in research. Let's see, if you were a Super Hero, what would your name be? "Catman"?

Reading this in The Knowlton Papers, it looks legitimate to me.

Did Bridget work for Mrs. Reads and Remington in Fall River before the Bordens? And did she come from Newport "about three years ago"? I don't remember that she did.

Since probably not everybody has The Knowlton Papers, I'll try to scan this from my copy of the book and post it. It's very interesting, and hopefully y'all have some input to post about it - even ideas, which are valuable.

[augusta]

I'm gonna try to post the Nellie McHenry interview with Bridget, as it was originally sent to Hosea Knowlton.

This comes from "The Knowlton Papers", by Michael Martins and Dennis Binette, FRHS, FR, Mass. c 1994, pages 33 - 35

[augusta]

There he goes again, folks - Super Hero Harry.

Wow! So Richard Borden did own the Troy Mills, which means that info Edwin McHenry wrote - at least about the person and place he worked - is not made up.

If Mrs. Churchill did say that comment, that she knew something she saw on the murder morning but would not tell even if they pulled her tongue out, why didn't Edwin McHenry write more about it? Perhaps he never found out what she knew.

[DJ]

That Churchill woman! Suppose she saw something from next door, BEFORE the murders, that-- in hindsight-- would have turned the case?
Maybe she saw something happen in the yard, or through one of the windows?

Maybe she realized the judgment in the case could have rested on her shoulders, and she didn't want the responsibility thereof? (As opposed to Alice Russell, whom we must assume slept soundly, at last, that her testimony might hang "friend" Lizzie.)
***********************************************************
Bridget's statement bears the ring of truth. I can see Bridget taking pity on one of Abby's relatives and discussing the matter with her. Also, it follows close on the heels of the event, which would give it a greater sense of veracity, as opposed to rehearsed courtroom testimony, far removed from the event.

The point about the infamous alleged note that I've questioned several times: Just can't see Mrs. B running off without telling Bridget.
Especially: Receiving the note at the door (Lizzie did not receive the note, by her own testimony), THEN going upstairs to the guest room, THEN leaving without telling anyone where she was about.
Abby COULD NOT have been in a tearing rush if she answered the door, then went back upstairs.
This is a very damning point against Lizzie.

Interesting statement about Mr. Morse....

[Yooper]

If Mrs. Churchill saw something she kept quiet about and if she blabbed to someone that she had additional information, she was taking a large chance. If the police or the courts found out she was withholding evidence, there would likely be a penalty, although Alice Russell got away with it for a time.

[Harry]

Partial quote:

Wow! So Richard Borden did own the Troy Mills, which means that info Edwin McHenry wrote - at least about the person and place he worked - is not made up.

I would not draw the conclusion that Richard Borden owned it. I believe it was a public company and thus owned by the stock holders. Since he served as Agent and Treasurer he undoubtedly owned a sizable position in the company.

[Robert Harry]

Thanks, Augusta, for posting that "hot interview." Sure does seem to have the ring of truth to it. And, DJ, I do agree that Lizzie's "invention" of the note was meant to fill in a lot of holes...Poor Lizzie, she had to have Abby out of the way, then have her come back, (after having tried to coax Bridget to go to the Sargent's sale), not to mention having to explain her own (Lizzie's) whereabouts. It seems highly unlikely that Abby left the house, since she never told Bridget, she never changed out of her house dress, and the front door was latched so securely that Mr. Borden could not open it (he obviously thought he would be able to, since he tried it with his key--indicating that at that hour, the extra bolt would not be on). Needless to say, I am convinced Lizzie did it--at one point I wavered, but at a certain moment the certainty of her guilt hit me and has never left.

[DJ]

Yes, and I do want to emphasize how Mrs. Borden's behavior was completely out of keeping on several fronts.

(1) Why didn't she drop everything and hasten to the sick relative? Makes zero sense to return to the upstairs bedroom. No one was scheduled to sleep there that night.

(2) Surely Mrs. B would have given Lizzie a locale of her whereabouts at the time they allegedly discussed the receipt of the note.

Scenario:

Mrs. B-- "I have received a note to call on someone sick."
The logical response:
Lizzie-- "Who?"

Anyone would have naturally asked, "Who?"

And, if we are to believe Lizzie, she and Mrs. B were rather chatty that a.m., with Mrs. B even asking Lizzie what she wanted for dinner.

I wonder whether anyone asked Lizzie if she wanted well-aged mutton for breakfast.

[Yooper]

I think the note was fabricated as an excuse for not having missed Abby for most of the morning. It first comes up right after Andrew's arrival, and Lizzie had plenty of time to think of it beforehand. Lizzie could not possibly have counted on the opportunity to kill Andrew, so, at the very least she needed to explain why she hadn't seen Abby since 9:30 and wasn't concerned. It coincidentally prevented Andrew from searching for Abby after his arrival.

[Debbie]

The note has always bothered me and for the very reasons which have been pointed out here in the other posts.
I really want to believe Lizzie is innocent, but this note mess does seem to go against her.
It just doesn't make sense to receive a note about a sick person, say you are leaving and then proceed upstairs to make a bed.
I can understand Abby not telling Bridget she got a note to leave if Bridget was out back and Abby was in a hurry to leave, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
I can't make the note thing work for me at all. I once thought maybe Abby heard a noise after she closed the front door and went upstairs and found an intruder, but then how did Lizzie know about the note. Maybe Abby heard a noise upstairs on the way out of the house. Nope, don't think so, as she was still in her house dress.
Wasn't a search done for the person who supposedly delivered the note? But then again, if you are a party to murder, you certainly wouldn't admit you delivered a note to that house that morning.
I wonder, assuming the note was fabricated by Lizzie, if Lizzie would now change her story and not say anything about a note arriving.
I have heard the Devil is in the details and this is one detail Lizzie shouldn't have given.

[Debbie]

I forgot to thank Augusta for posting the Nellie McHenry interview with Bridget. Some of it sounds like it was copied from testimony given in the case and does have a ring of truth, but then part of it sounds more like a story someone is telling and not an interview.
I was wondering about the McHenry name as soon as I heard it mentioned. Hopefully the wife wasn't a con too.

[Robert Harry]

Another troubling detail:After having "dispatched" Abby to "someone who is sick," by way of the "note," Lizzie has to get her back home (so that she can be found dead upstairs). So she sends a "search party" upstairs to look for Abby stating, "I think I heard her come in." If that were so, why ever didn't Lizzie frantically call out to Abby or say something to Bridget indicating that she feared the house were under siege by a madman, or run to get the police herself? Hmmm.....

[DJ]

Yes, Robert Harry, and-- as recently mentioned in the Forum-- it also makes zero sense that Abby would have returned to the house and gone directly up the front stairs to the guest bedroom. It was almost dinnertime. She would have gone straight to the kitchen, where I'm sure she would have expected to find Bridget. Better yet, Mrs. Borden would have come to the side door, not the front, in the first place.

The thing that strikes me as honest about Mrs. McHenry's missive is that it doesn't really contain anything ultra-inflammatory. She even admits that Bridget wouldn't answer some questions. That gives it a ring of truth.

What may make it sound stilted is that she obviously wrote it up from memory, shortly after her "interview' with Bridget.

And, let's not forget: The woman gave it to a prosecuting attorney! She could have been charged with giving false information in a murder investigation if she had been caught out in a lie.

Also, as I've said before, it's information given close to the event. In short, it's fresh.

[Yooper]

The bottom line is, Lizzie didn't hear Abby doing anything since about 9:30 that morning. As has been pointed out by others, she may have heard an intruder leaving. That was the one realization she might have mentioned which would have covered the situation, but she never brought it up. She had been too busy telling others that she heard nothing from the yard or barn, and she noticed nothing after having found Andrew. The only time she had an opportunity to hear "Abby returning" was after she told Andrew that Abby was out and before finding Andrew, the time during which she heard nothing.

Not only did Lizzie direct the search for Abby "upstairs", she prevented Bridget from looking for Abby at Abby's sister's house.

[augusta]

DJ, I am leaning more on the side that the Nellie McHenry interview was true because of the comment you made that here she was sending this to Knowlton, and if it was a lie she would be creating trouble for herself. I never thought of that. Thank you.

Yooper, your comment about when did Lizzie have a chance to hear Abby come in made me think that that might have been a big one for Bridget to get over. Bridget was in the other room when Lizzie was talking to Andrew, but did not hear all of the conversation. But almost as soon as Bridget went upstairs, Andrew is killed and Lizzie was supposed to be out in the bahn. So this comment Lizzie threw out there, "I thought I heard her come in," was an ambiguous one to everyone as to the when of it- except probably not to Bridget, who might have had her antennae raised hearing that.

I was reading something the other day where Bridget said that Abby even told her she was going out if it were just to get a cake of yeast.

Wasn't there a dressing room off of the guest room, or was the dressing room off of Abby & Andrew's bedroom? If it was off of the guest room, I guess it could be argued that Abby was on her way to change her dress to go out. If somebody wanted me to come over quickly and I was going about my household chores in the crap I wear around the house, yeah, I would definitely dash upstairs and make a quick change.

I can't believe there ever was a note. Boy, Lizzie (and maybe Morse and maybe Emma) really thought this thru. No wonder she spat out "I want Winward's" so fast. (Hey, that'd make a good t-shirt.) But whoever thought of that note really thought well. Nobody could prove there was not a note.

Yes, they did have it in the papers asking for either the person who wrote the note or the person who delivered it to step forward, and no one ever did. Masterton gives an interesting possibility in his book "Lizzie Didn't Do It!" It's refreshing to hear a really different theory, but I don't believe it.

Superhero Harry, well a Fall Riverite familiar with the Troy mills might unofficially say they were Richard Borden's. Would that be fair to say?

[augusta]

The part in my previous post where I said I was reading somewhere that Bridget said Abby always told her if she was even going out to get a cake of yeast comes from Nellie McHenry's interview above.

[Yooper]

It really isn't necessary to prove there was no note, until there is, there isn't. There was no sender or delivery person who came forward, so it was just Lizzie's word.

Lizzie also told Bridget while Bridget was on her way upstairs that Abby had a note and had gone.

The dressing room was off Abby and Andrew's room rather than the guest room.

[goddessoftheclassroom]

Yooper, I'm not well-versed in the transcripts. Did Lizzie say SHE took the note, or did she say that ABBY SAID she (Abby) received a note?

[Yooper]

Lizzie said at the Inquest that Abby told her of the note, see page (22) in Lizzie's Inquest testimony.

[Yooper]

Come to think of it, Lizzie would/should have been able to at least identify a messenger if she had received the note herself.

[goddessoftheclassroom]

OK, so here's my theory:

ANDREW sent the note to Abby to meet him at the bank.
Abby makes up the "someone's sick" story.
Andrew comes home early in part because he's not feeling well but mostly because he wonders where Abby is.
When Lizzy tells him Abby went to a sick friend's, Andrew can't contradict it.

Whatever messenger boy brought it didn't come forward because the police asked about a message from a sick neighbor.

[DJ]

Interesting, but here are a few problems:

(1) Instead of going off to meet Andrew at the bank, Abby goes up to the guest room, to clean and make the bed afresh. Surely, if Andrew had sent Abby a note, it would have been over an urgent matter. There is no sense of urgency in Abby going up to the guest room after receiving the alleged note.

(2) If Andrew comes home without having seen Abby at the bank, he's got to be wondering where she is. In fact, he's probably going to be more than a bit concerned-- to the point of searching the premises, even.
He certainly would have quizzed Bridget, and there's no record that I know of that indicates that he did so.

(3) Abby was probably dead by the time Andrew even got to the bank. He leaves the house shortly after nine and heads to the Post Office (with Miss Lizzie's letter to Emma, which couldn't have been given to her Uncle John, who was headed there beforehand; no, it had to go with Andrew-- who was feeling most puny, too). Abby probably died no later than 9:30, given the results of the postmortem (progress of digestion on stomach contents). Also, her blood was congealed by the time she was discovered, around 11:30 a.m.

(4) What could have happened in the fifteen minutes that Andrew left the house that turned out to be so pressing? If Andrew and Abby had "private business" at the bank, Abby could have pretended to go out shopping (at Sargent's!) and met Andrew at tha bank instead. They could have arranged that before he left the house.
If Andrew had wanted to meet Abby secretly at the bank, it would have sent up a red flag to Lizzie if a note had arrived at the house.

(5) As per (4) above-- If Lizzie had indeed received the note, there would have been nothing to have stopped her from reading it, especially if it were not sealed in any fashion. And she would have at least been able to describe who sent it (male? age? height? hair color?), if in fact she didn't recognize him/her.

*If Andrew were expecting to meet Abby at the bank, and she never showed up, he would have probably gone looking for her (after returning home), starting with the rooms in the house. He would know that she wasn't out visiting a sick friend, but was supposed to have met him. If she never left the house, then where could she be (inside the house, or on the premises, that is)?*

[Allen]

I think the McHenry Interview sounds a bit contrived. There is one glaring inaccuracy that makes me doubt the whole thing. In it Bridget states Lizzie sent her to Mrs. Churchill's to look for Abby because she thought she might be there. That in fact, Bridget went to Mrs. Churchill's and came back with her. The two made a search of the house. This is directly refuted by testimony given at the trial and the inquest. Most of the other tidbits sounds like anything that could be put together using newspapers by this time, iincluding the inaccuracies given by the papers. If she believed this woman was a relative of Abby, wouldn't she provide more intimate details about her? Wouldn't she be more inclined to open up to someone who knew Abby on a personal level? I try to picture if Jane Gray, or Mrs. Whitehead had interviewed Bridget what might it have sounded like? Saying it was Morse's fault due to staying there because Abby had to go to that part of the house, is a little far fetched. If someone wanted Abby dead they are not going to wait for the single opportunity of killing her in the guest room. I'm sure Bridget was smart enough to know that. I do not see this letter being sent to Mr. Knowlton gives it any more veracity than the letters from cranks sent to the police professing to be the murderer themselves. Or the letter from the so called psychic who claimed to have talked to the murdered Borden's. The fact that there was also a scandal regarding the information allegedly provided by her husband takes any weight of it for me. In a situation where it would be Briget's word against Nellie's I think it wouldn't be ideal to worry about pressing charges. Anyone could've sent a letter saying they talked to Bridget and claimed she said anything they wanted. Were there any witnesses to this interview? Nellie wasn't giving an official statment under oath for the record, she was sending a letter. I would've been more impressed if she had showed up to talk to Knowlton herself. We've never heard of any ill feelings Abby had about Morse. She appears to have sat up talking with the two men into the evening, she went to bed first, but after a period chatting. She served Morse dinner herself when he showed up. If she disliked the man why didn't she dispatch the servant to wait on him? Many things don't ring true to me. And how could she have been talking about him "all the week long" when he had only been there a day, and the Borden's hadn't even known he was coming? And he had already been to visit on at least one other occassion that summer and only stayed a short time. "Now that he is here I suppose we will have him on our hands all summer" implies he had a habit of spending long periods of time every he visited. Which isn't the case. There are just too many things that do not ring true for me. It sounde to me like someone read newspaper articles, including the inaccuracies, and tried to make their own implications out of them to form an "Interview".

[augusta]

Good points, Allen. One thing in the Nellie McHenry letter I don't understand is she said to have went to the place where Bridget was boarding. I thought Bridget was sent to work at the jail, and I assumed she lived with Josiah Hunt and his family. Or was she boarding with someone at the time?

Nevertheless, I would think that Knowlton would have made sure she didn't say a word to anyone and would have kept her either more inaccessible or warned her seriously not to talk.

Having Morse "on our hands all summer" could have meant he might be popping in and out all summer. Maybe.

The letter was easy for Knowlton to check out, tho, with Nellie McH signing it.

I don't like it from the get-go. Nellie McH goes to Bridget and pretends to be a relative of Abby's to get the interview. That's sneaky right there.

I don't remember Bridget saying she worked in Newport before.

Yooper, thanks for the info that the dressing room was off of the Bordens' bedroom.

I think Lizzie tried to say that maybe Abby burned up the "sick" note in the kitchen stove. Abby was never seen in the kitchen, or even downstairs once she went up to put on the "pillow slips".

Goddess, I think your theory is very close to Frank Spiering's in his book "Lizzie". That part of the story is interesting, but I have to agree with DJ.

[Allen]

I found this in the Trial testimony of Bridget Sullivan, I believe it's page 192:

Q. How long have you been in this country?
A. Six years last May..seven years last May.

Q. And where were you born?
A. In Ireland.

Q. And came here seven years ago?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. came to what part of this country?
A. I came to Newport.

Q. Newport, Rhode Island?
A. Yes, sir.

I did some general perusing of a few newspaper reports from the Sourcebook, just to get an idea of how much of the information in the "interview" could be found in the newspapers before the letter was supposedly written. There are no dates listed for two of the articles, other than the first states it was the day of the inquest, and the second it was the day after I believe.


The New York Herald Listed August 9th 1892:

"....Bridget Sullivan is one of 14 children. She came to this country six years ago. For three years she worked for a number of families in this city and the police say that she bears an excellent reputation. For the last three years she had lived with the Borden family and for some time past has been threatening to return to Ireland. She says that Mrs. Borden was a very kind mistress and that she was much attached to her. Mrs. Borden used to talk to her about going home to Ireland, and used to tell her that she would be lonely without her. Accordingly, the young woman says that she did not have the heart to leave, but she never expected to be in an awful predicament like this. She had been terrified ever since the tragedy, she said."

The Fall River Herald

KEEPING HER PROMISE

The fact that Bridget Sullivan, the domestic, had left the Borden mansion and taken refuge with her cousin on Division street led most people to believe that her further presence in connection with the case was not needed. This is not so, for though her testimony yesterday did not throw any new light on the matter, yet she is under police surveillance at her present abode. She is faithfully keeping the promise made to Attorney General Pillsbury not to speak about the case, and would not converse about anything in connection with the matter.

Shortly after Miss Sullivan arrived in this city she secured a situation as a cook at Milton Reed's residence, and the reporter made a call on that gentleman......"


The New York Herald

A VALUABLE WITNESS

Bridget Sullivan proved herself a most valuable witness, and it is no wonder that she is carefully guarded at the house of her cousin on Division Street. It will be remembered that the story told all along has sent her to the third floor to wash windows and that nobody has been able to ascertain when she ascended the stairs. She told the district attorney that she did not go to the third story to wash windows at all...."

[augusta]

Good post, Allen! Thank you for doing all that typing.

So Bridget was in Newport. 'Tis interestin'. And there was a Mrs. Reed/Read she worked for.

Your newspaper extracts come from like August 9th - and Nellie McHenry says she interviewed Bridget on August 19th. I think someone else pointed the late date of the McHenry interview earlier. That certainly makes it less believable. So they did have a lot of that stuff out to the public by then.

I remember Bridget saying in testimony that she worked in - I'm remembering Bethlehem or Bessemer, PA? I'll look that up in her Inquest testimony ... I can't believe I said that. The Preliminary Hearing.

When it's said that Bridget never said she washed the windows on the 3rd floor when she went up, Bridget at first fibbed to a cop and did not admit to going up to take a snooze. She at first said she was up there working, then corrected herself soon after.

Well, if Nellie McHenry's interview is bogus, what would she be gaining by writing it and sending it to Knowlton?

[Curryong]

More on the Nellie McHenry supposed interview and a few interesting little bits and bobs about Bridget.

Does anyone know what connection George Wiley had with Mrs Churchill? He wasn't one of the several lodgers she had that she was a bit bristly about in court, was he? It's an odd expression for a male to make up, if he did!