No one heard anything?

[BrianKLoftin]

It seems strange that neither Lizzie nor Bridget heard anything unsual in the house that morning. There were no air conditioning units blowing or whirring sounds from electrical devices plugged into the wall, like we have nowadays-- just the noises on the street of carriages passing. It seems that on that morning it would have been very easy to hear even so much as a chase, a whimper, or a chop. Unless the victims were attacked that quickly, so that there was no time for any sounds from the victims. Abby appears to have been wrestled to the floor, though we don't know for sure, but it would explain such a quiet crime. Mr. Borden was on the couch, so he wouldn't have fallen. Wouldn't sounds have travelled easier through the house in those days? Just a random point.

[augusta]

A lot of people have pointed out that with Abby's 200 pound frame, someone in the house should have heard her hit the floor.

Bridget was outside doing the windows, and Morse and Andrew were gone. All that was in the house, supposedly, was Lizzie. It is so hard to believe that Lizzie didn't hear anything.

The sound in that house may travel easily. Once when I was out there and was on the third floor with Kat, Stef called out to us - and not loudly - "Come down" (or words to that effect) and Kat and I said in unison, "Father's been killed!" It was very interesting because I think she said it in a rather soft-spoken way, and we heard it very clearly. There was no other noise that I was aware of at the time, tho.

Second street (back then they didn't capitalize "street") was real busy. Yeah, you had your carriages clopping by. A lot of people were outdoors that morning. Right in Crowe's yard, guys were working that couldn't have been quiet. And the Borden house is like steps from downtown.

I don't think either Abby or Andrew had time to scream. But with all the blows to her head, and the first one missing and getting her back, there must have been noises in the guest room.

When Lizzie was supposedly up in the barn, she did say she heard a "groan" (I think as she was walking back to the house), and she also said she heard a "scraping sound". That's all I got.

[BrianKLoftin]

Thanks, Augusta... I didn't realize the house was so close to downtown. Now that I think about it, some men were working down there. I just figured that with the lack of electricity, somehow that made the house quieter, like when the electricity goes out here and there is no AC or the humming of the computers and refrigerators... know what I mean?

[Yooper]

It may have to do with how solidly or heavily the house was constructed. Much of what we hear when a heavy object is dropped in a house is vibration transferred by the framing. The lighter a house is framed, the more it vibrates and transfers sound.

I've never been to the Second Street house, but the photographs seem to indicate a structure just about as straight and strong as it was when it was built. I get the idea from the photos that the house was very substantially framed and would not readily transfer sounds created by a falling body.

I imagine someone jumping up and down on the second floor while others listen on the first floor might shed some light on the question.

Does the positioning of Abby's clothing tend to eliminate any possibilities for how she might have fallen? I've never worn a dress, so I'm at a loss as to what happens under the circumstance of falling while wearing one!

[augusta]

That's certainly food for thought, Yooper - how Abby's dress may have played into her struggling/falling. I never thought of that before at all. It opens up interesting thoughts.

The only thought I have is of no great help. I would think that her dress was not overly long, since it was an old one she was cleaning the house in.

I think by the time her photos were taken, doctors had already looked at her and that she was not in the exact position she was when she fell.

That's an idea - to do some jumping up and down sound tests in the guest room. It would probably need to be okay with the staff there first, so nothing in there would fall and break. I'll pass on that one. I've done enough crazy things in Fall River. I don't wanna add one more.

Brian, I used to think that too - that without all electricity and noise from tvs and stuff, that life must have been whisper still. But where the Borden house was/is, the street was known to be "busy". I think Yooper has a good point about how solid the house was or wasn't.

Lizzie says in her Inquest testimony:
Q: When was it that you heard the voice of Mr. Morse?
A: I heard him down there about supper time -. No, it was earlier than that. I heard him down there somewhere about three o'clock, I think. I was in my room Wednesday, not feeling well, all day.

And later on in her testimony she says:
A: My door was open part of the time and part of the time I tried to get a nap and their voices annoyed me and I closed it. ...

[goddessoftheclassroom]

What if Lizzie didn't hear Abby fall because she (Lizzie) really wasn't in the house when it happened?

One of the "facts" that many have accepted is that Abby died an hour and a hour or so before Andrew. According to one book, that might not have been the case: William L. Masterson' Lizzie Didn't Do It (review, http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/noto ... den/7.html)

I have not read the book, just this review. The possibility that Abby died just shortly before Andrew intrigues me. For example, what if ANDREW let Abby in before his nap and Abby went upstairs then to make the bed--Lizzie wouldn't have known Abby was back...

[Yooper]

If Lizzie was unaware of Abby's return, why would she send Bridget and Mrs. Churchill upstairs to look for her? Especially having forestalled a search for Abby at the Whitehead house by Bridget?

[goddessoftheclassroom]

I admit that's one of the most puzzling things.

Didn't Lizzie say she thought she heard Abby return? Maybe she thought she heard something as she was going out out to the bard. Yes, I know, that;s not what she said, but NOTHING she said about this aspect makes any sense.

If Abby were really upstairs and fine, she would have come down when she heard all the commotion, beginning with "Someone's killed father." Lizzie certainly didn't claim that Abby came home after the discovery of her father's body!

Maybe, just maybe, if Lizzie truly knew nothing about the murders before the fact, she was so shocked that thoughts of Abby flew from her mind until someone brought her up.

If she were in n it, why NOT have Bridget go to the Whiteheads in search of Abby?

[snokkums]

It seems strange that neither Lizzie nor Bridget heard anything unsual in the house that morning. There were no air conditioning units blowing or whirring sounds from electrical devices plugged into the wall, like we have nowadays-- just the noises on the street of carriages passing. It seems that on that morning it would have been very easy to hear even so much as a chase, a whimper, or a chop. Unless the victims were attacked that quickly, so that there was no time for any sounds from the victims. Abby appears to have been wrestled to the floor, though we don't know for sure, but it would explain such a quiet crime. Mr. Borden was on the couch, so he wouldn't have fallen. Wouldn't sounds have travelled easier through the house in those days? Just a random point.

I have always wondered that myself. With the house being very narrow and Abbys body falling to the ground, noone heard anything? And I can imagine with the first blow, Abby probably would have aleast let out a bit of ascream.

That's one of the reason why I think Lizzie did it. If she didn't do it, she would have heard Abby scream, heard her body fall to the ground.

[robbchadwick]

During a tour of the house not long ago, the guide told us that the killer had lifted Abby by the back of her clothing into a sort of kneeling position while striking the blows. This may have lessened the noise somewhat.

[Harry]

Welcome to the forum, robbchadwick!

That's obvious speculation on their part.

[Allen]

Yes, I think this is speculation. Because there really is no evidence to support this as a fact. I really don't think we can ever be sure how Abby's killer attacked her. We can only make some educated guesses based on the description of her wounds.

[robbchadwick]

Yes, of course, you make an excellent point that no one can know for sure how the killer struck the blows. However, considering that Abby does not appear to be lying flat on the floor, I thought it was possible that the killer did pull her into that position by the back of her dress in order to continue the attack. If true, would this indicate a shorter rather than taller person?

[Yooper]

Don't forget that Abby weighed somewhere around 200 pounds, and the suggestion seems to be that someone lifted her to a degree with one hand while using a hatchet with the other hand.

[Tracie]

Has anyone considered (from what i've read and please correct me if I am wrong) that whoever was the killer didn't miss either victim at all. No marks on the floor of the guest room, the sofa relatively intact considering that Andrew was on the sofa while being attacked. Evidently their aim was true. Like they had done this type of thing before. Just wondering out loud. . . . .

[robbchadwick]

Has anyone considered (from what i've read and please correct me if I am wrong) that whoever was the killer didn't miss either victim at all. No marks on the floor of the guest room, the sofa relatively intact considering that Andrew was on the sofa while being attacked. Evidently their aim was true. Like they had done this type of thing before. Just wondering out loud. . . . .

That is very interesting and an excellent point. I would think it indicates a very calculated method and a cool head for sure. If the maid struck the blows, it would have surely been in anger ... very hard to be so calm and collected in that state ... and it's hard to imagine any other motive for her other than anger ... unless she and Lizzie planned it together.

Lizzie's demeanor would be harder to predict. If she did it on the spur of the moment, she would have most likely also been emotionally distraught. If the attempt to buy prussic acid had anything to do with the murders, it would indicate premeditation; and she could have been cool enough, I suppose ... but it's hard to imagine that she was that calm while killing her father.

[1bigsteve]

I really doubt a 200 pound "rolly polly" person would make much noise when they fell to the floor, especially if they were already kneeling when they were first struck. The first blow may have stunned Abby so that no scream came out of her mouth. The first blow may have caught Abby completely off guard.

I think it's possible that the Doctor straightened Abby's dress out of a sense of decency the way a police officer today will often cover a nude dead body. The first time I saw that photo of Abby's body, the one with Abby's shoes facing the camera, my first impression was that it was staged or it was a stand-in model taken some days after the actual killing. The position of the body looked fake to me.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Yooper]

If I remember correctly, Abby's hands were originally found crossed in front of her face as she lay on the floor. That would imply a defensive posture, so she may have seen her killer. Abby suffered two wounds not to the back of her head, one creating a flap of skin at the side of her head, the other struck her back above the shoulder blades and below the base of her neck. It could be that a frenzied killer simply swung a hatchet at Abby's head, and Abby determined where the blows fell by turning away. The blow creating the flap of skin was thought to have come from the front, and it may well have been the first struck. The one to her back would obviously have come from behind and may have come at any time, but it might have come as Abby was falling. All of the other hatchet blows were well directed and may imply a stationary target.

[patsy]

I also have some doubts about the timeline in regard to how long before Andrew's murder it was when Abby was killed. And depending on the time Lizzie could have been outside when the blows were struck.

If Abby was leaning over the bed and had turned toward the killer she would have been hit more toward the side or front, and then could have slid quietly down to her knees. Maybe there was not a lot of noise when she went down.

[Smudgeman]

A number of contemporary experts based their belief that Abby had died between an hour and two hours earlier than Andrew on several factors: 1) Abby's blood seemed to be coagulated and Andrew's was not, 2) Abby's body felt cooler to the touch than Andrew's, and 3) there was a great deal of undigested food in Abby's stomach, but the food in Andrew's stomach was pretty well digested.

This quote was from Goddessoftheclassroom's link, I found this interesting regarding the undigested food. I thought it took about 12 to 24 hours to digest food? So if there was more undigested food in Abbey's stomach that may mean she ate more food then Andrew. If it takes that long from the time you eat, or maybe it varies from person to person according to what type of food you are eating? If Andrew ate breakfast, I doubt it was digested completely?
Abbey could have completely been taken by surprise, and there could be very liitle noise if she was kneeling or crouching to fix a bed skirt.

[DJ]

Was considering Abby's death last night.

One reason-- apart from the killer's rage-- I believe she received so many blows was because she didn't die immediately.

That may have well factored into her dropping to her knees first. Then clutching her throat, as if she couldn't breathe.

She could have been bleeding into her trachea or esophagus. Or, she could have simply stopped breathing, and her mind could still register that.

In any event, I fear she did not die immediately, as Andrew did, that her body's survival instincts kicked in, and she struggled.

Hence, another factor for the "overkill" with the excessive number of blows, perhaps.

**********************************************************
I was thinking about all this vis a vis grisly tales of executions at the Tower of London, how the brain and autonomic nervous system can display surprising capabilities and resiliencies at the times of what would seem like certain death.

For instance, there are accounts of executioners having to fetch sharper implements, with victims partially hacked through the neck and still conscious and speaking.

[snokkums]

Sometimes I think that maybe because of the busyness of the street and eveything that was going on that maybe no one saw or heard anything. Noone was paying attention.

[SarahJay]

A number of contemporary experts based their belief that Abby had died between an hour and two hours earlier than Andrew on several factors: 1) Abby's blood seemed to be coagulated and Andrew's was not, 2) Abby's body felt cooler to the touch than Andrew's, and 3) there was a great deal of undigested food in Abby's stomach, but the food in Andrew's stomach was pretty well digested.

This quote was from Goddessoftheclassroom's link, I found this interesting regarding the undigested food. I thought it took about 12 to 24 hours to digest food? So if there was more undigested food in Abbey's stomach that may mean she ate more food then Andrew. If it takes that long from the time you eat, or maybe it varies from person to person according to what type of food you are eating? If Andrew ate breakfast, I doubt it was digested completely?
Abbey could have completely been taken by surprise, and there could be very little noise if she was kneeling or crouching to fix a bed skirt.

-- The digested food has always interested me as well, however i'm wondering at what stage Abby and Andrew's food was digested - strictly speaking, it can take up to 80 hours in total for food to digest and then leave your body. However, food has to go through all the bends and loops of your intestine. Food can begin to be digested in various forms from as soon as 30 minutes to 2 hours, depending upon where it is in your body - Abby's body probably hadn't begun to properly digest her food, and may have only reached the stomach (and not the intestine where its more likely Andrew's food ended).

Given this, it would make sense that Abby had more food than Andrew, and therefore died much earlier than Andrew.

And this is one of things i love about the case - timing! The wait between the first and second murders is astounding. Sometimes i wonder if there was an opportunity to murder Abby and Andrew 'at the same time' that morning? (that is, both in the early morning, rather than a few hours apart) Perhaps logistics put a stop to that?

I don't recall the exact time line, but did Morse leave the house first, then Andrew? If so, how long after Morse goes does Andrew leave? Was there opportunity to do it then? --

[SarahJay]

If Lizzie was unaware of Abby's return, why would she send Bridget and Mrs. Churchill upstairs to look for her? Especially having forestalled a search for Abby at the Whitehead house by Bridget?

Ah yes, Yooper! :)

I too havent read the book that godessoftheclassroom mentioned ('Lizzie didn't do it'), and although it sounds a juicy proposition, i find it hard to accept the idea that Abby left the house, or that Andrew then let Abby into the house just before he died, or that Abby was murdered just shortly before Andrew.

One of my favourite examples of Lizzie's slip of the tongue and perhaps letting on more than she should have known in the very early stages of discovering Andrew's body is this:

Mrs, Churchill: "I said 'Where is your mother?' She says 'I don't know, she had a note to go and see someone that was sick this morning, but i don't know but they have killed her too.'" p. 128 (35) Inquest II upon the deaths of Andrew J. Borden and Abby D. Borden. http://lizzieandrewborden.com/pdf%20fil ... ay2003.pdf

I don't know, it may be a case of me just really liking the proposition that Abby died hours before Andrew and that Lizzie was lying when she said that Abby had received a note, and finding evidence to support it, but i think Lizzie knew where Abby was at all times- before, during and after. This in it self may explain why Lizzie never heard anything, or why she wouldn't have heard Abby fall as she died.

I wish we just knew the answers already! [/i]

[Yooper]

If Lizzie thought Abby had been killed it implies that Lizzie thought Abby had returned. Otherwise, Lizzie thought it was raining hatchets in Fall River that day. Why would Lizzie believe that Abby had been killed if Lizzie thought Abby was still away from the house?

[Angel]

Supposing Lizzie had not done it, maybe when she said she thought she heard Abby returning she was actually either hearing the sounds of Abby upstairs being hacked at and falling, or hearing the murderer leaving. But where on earth could she have been in the house at the time?

[Yooper]

Officer Allen found the front door triple locked when he arrived, how could anyone have exited the house without Lizzie seeing them as she came in from the barn?

[Aamartin]

Lizzie's responses about Abby being gone-- and stating that she thought she might have come in and was murdered too, for me-- make it 99% clear she was in on it to some degree-- whether or not she swung the hatchet is something I cannot quite say I think she did... But the responses to Abby's whereabouts (finally) convinces me wasn't totally 'not guilty'.

[Angel]

Officer Allen found the front door triple locked when he arrived, how could anyone have exited the house without Lizzie seeing them as she came in from the barn?

No- I'm talking about the first murder supposedly occurring an hour and a half before the second. The front door may not necessarily have been triple locked at that time. It could have been locked by Andrew after he came home. Lizzie said she was in the barn only after Andrew had decided to take a nap.

[DJ]

Yes, Aamartin, Lizzie's statement that she thought she heard Mrs. Borden not only enter, but go upstairs, makes zero sense on multiple levels.

Lizzie might as well have said, "Hey, her body's up there. Go have a peek."

[Yooper]

Supposing Lizzie had not done it, maybe when she said she thought she heard Abby returning she was actually either hearing the sounds of Abby upstairs being hacked at and falling, or hearing the murderer leaving. But where on earth could she have been in the house at the time?

Why would she tell Andrew that Abby was out if she thought Abby had returned?

[Angel]

That's right. Which makes me think even more that she did it.