Going through my newspaper clippings I extracted the following from one of the articles:
The Boston Globe, Aug. 8th:
Another clue was that of a woman reported as seen near the Borden house about 10.30 by Hymon Lubinsky, a Russian pedler of ice cream, who was driving up 2d st.
It was found that she was unfamiliar with the locality, and when she was seen she was making innocent and perfectly legitimate inquiries at a house next to the Borden's.
Her name is McGrath and she is fully identified and found to be all right.
I could find no other reference to her. It doesn't sound like it refers to Ellen Eagan. As far as I remember Ellen made no inquiries.
A new name makes its appearance
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
-
Harry
- Posts: 4058
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
A new name makes its appearance
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
-
Allen
- Posts: 3408
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Me
-
Yooper
- Posts: 3302
- Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:12 am
- Real Name: Jeff
- Location: U.P. Michigan
I was just thinking about how much slower paced life was in 1892. Driving a horse and wagon or buggy is nothing like driving an automobile, I've done both. On a wagon, the driver is out in the open and moving relatively slowly, with plenty of time to observe things other than traffic. People were more accustomed to walking back then, today we just jump in the car to do errands without even thinking about it. An intruder would have been much more noticeable entering or leaving the Borden house in 1892 than he would be today.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
-
DJ
- Posts: 794
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:12 pm
- Real Name:
Yes, in looking through the Witness Statements again for the discussion on the hatchet (gilty or not gilty), I was struck by the sense of how many neighbors were up in each other's bidness.
Don't think Mrs. Churchill missed much-- boy, was she pent up about Lizzie. Also sounds as if she might have had a thing for A.J. I just bet she would have been the first one over with a fresh stewed chicken if Abby had met her demise after a natural cause.
Don't think Mrs. Churchill missed much-- boy, was she pent up about Lizzie. Also sounds as if she might have had a thing for A.J. I just bet she would have been the first one over with a fresh stewed chicken if Abby had met her demise after a natural cause.
-
SallyG
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Sally Glynn
- Location: Gainesville, Florida
- Contact:
AJ? You mean Andrew? I dunno...as I recall Mrs. Churchill was fairly young, wasn't she?DJ @ Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:49 am wrote:Yes, in looking through the Witness Statements again for the discussion on the hatchet (gilty or not gilty), I was struck by the sense of how many neighbors were up in each other's bidness.
Don't think Mrs. Churchill missed much-- boy, was she pent up about Lizzie. Also sounds as if she might have had a thing for A.J. I just bet she would have been the first one over with a fresh stewed chicken if Abby had met her demise after a natural cause.
-
DJ
- Posts: 794
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:12 pm
- Real Name:
Well, she testified that she had lived next door to the Bordens for 42 years.
Sounds as if she kept her eyes peeled out that kitchen window like Gladys Cravits, too.
*************************************************************
To specify: She had lived next door to the Bordens' house for 42 years, but she still would have seen Lizzie move from youth to maturity, and she would have seen A.J. advance from middle age onward.
Sounds as if she kept her eyes peeled out that kitchen window like Gladys Cravits, too.
*************************************************************
To specify: She had lived next door to the Bordens' house for 42 years, but she still would have seen Lizzie move from youth to maturity, and she would have seen A.J. advance from middle age onward.
-
SallyG
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:49 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Sally Glynn
- Location: Gainesville, Florida
- Contact:
Wow..for some reason I was under the impression she was close to Lizzie's age. I guess she was not as young as I thought.DJ @ Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:50 pm wrote:Well, she testified that she had lived next door to the Bordens for 42 years.
Sounds as if she kept her eyes peeled out that kitchen window like Gladys Cravits, too.
*************************************************************
To specify: She had lived next door to the Bordens' house for 42 years, but she still would have seen Lizzie move from youth to maturity, and she would have seen A.J. advance from middle age onward.
-
doug65oh
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:26 am
- Real Name:
Mrs. Churchill was actually much closer in age to Emma than Lizzie. I don't have my solar-powered abacus handy to check the math, but if memory serves the difference in their ages was 6-15 months at most, Emma being younger.
What Addie actually said under oath in court, incidentally, was that she'd lived at her then-current address (the Mayor Buffinton house as it was called) for approximately 42 years - excepting a few months. She'd been acquainted with the Borden family for some 20 years. That's at pg. 342-43 in the court transcript, although I've paraphrased here rather than quoting directly.
What Addie actually said under oath in court, incidentally, was that she'd lived at her then-current address (the Mayor Buffinton house as it was called) for approximately 42 years - excepting a few months. She'd been acquainted with the Borden family for some 20 years. That's at pg. 342-43 in the court transcript, although I've paraphrased here rather than quoting directly.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
- Robert Frost
-
DJ
- Posts: 794
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:12 pm
- Real Name:
Which makes one wonder-- why weren't Emma and Mrs. Churchill closer friends? Not to say that they did have "pleasant" encounters, to use Mrs. C's word, but they would have "grown up together," as next-door-neighbors, during those decades after the Bordens moved in--one wonders if one rubbed the other the wrong way, or both/and.
Interesting that Lizzie pitches her "Father has an enemy"/"the milk cans are being poisoned" theories to Alice Russell, and not to Mrs. C., until the a.m. of the murders, evidently.
Seems as if Lizzie-- and Emma-- were wary of Mrs. C. for some reason(s). Perhaps because she was simply a nosey neighbor, or maybe she didn't like the girls all that much, for some reason(s).
Interesting that Lizzie pitches her "Father has an enemy"/"the milk cans are being poisoned" theories to Alice Russell, and not to Mrs. C., until the a.m. of the murders, evidently.
Seems as if Lizzie-- and Emma-- were wary of Mrs. C. for some reason(s). Perhaps because she was simply a nosey neighbor, or maybe she didn't like the girls all that much, for some reason(s).
-
DJ
- Posts: 794
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:12 pm
- Real Name:
Yes, Allen, she probably let Emma and Lizzie know-- with a well-pointed comment or well-directed look-- that she didn't approve of their behavior.
One of the great benefits of this Forum is that the back-and-forth chat often heps to determine important "dots" and then to connect them.
Interesting that Lizzie feeds Alice the "Father has an enemy" story the night before the murders, and that she feeds the same line to Mrs. Churchill, at the side door, the a.m. of the Fourth.
Lizzie also slips to Mrs. C that she doesn't wonder if said enemy has also "got" Mrs. Borden as well.
Huh? I thought she was out on a call to a sick friend.
Watch out, Alice. Head's up, Mrs. C.
One of the great benefits of this Forum is that the back-and-forth chat often heps to determine important "dots" and then to connect them.
Interesting that Lizzie feeds Alice the "Father has an enemy" story the night before the murders, and that she feeds the same line to Mrs. Churchill, at the side door, the a.m. of the Fourth.
Lizzie also slips to Mrs. C that she doesn't wonder if said enemy has also "got" Mrs. Borden as well.
Huh? I thought she was out on a call to a sick friend.
Watch out, Alice. Head's up, Mrs. C.
-
diana
- Posts: 878
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:21 pm
- Real Name:
It's amazing our Mrs. Churchill noticed as much as she did. She seemed to have enough on her plate without worrying about how the Bordens were making out. She rented out rooms and it sounds as though she did most of the work herself. She does say her sister helped a bit -- and that between the two of them they did up five bedrooms that particular morning. (Trial)
Did Lizzie look down on Addie because she took in lodgers? Would Lizzie have considered herself a cut above because she and her sister were ladies of leisure, in comparison? After all, the Borden girls basically only had to look after their own bedrooms and had a maid to cook and do the laundry. Mrs. Churchill mentions her yardman, Thomas Bowles, but did we ever hear mention of any inside household help?
I commented a few years ago on the forum about the fact she made no mention of her lodgers until pressed by the defense:
At the Inquest:
"Q. You live in the next house to Mr. A. J. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Up or down stairs?
A. Down stairs, or all over the house, there is only one family." [emphasis mine] (Inquest)
At the Preliminary Hearing: She say she occupies the whole house where she lives.
At the Trial: When the prosecution asks if she occupies the whole house she answers in the affirmative.
So not until Robinson's trial cross-examination do we hear she shares the house with paying guests:
"Q. Who are the members of your family, first?
A. My immediate family, my mother and sister and her daughter, and my son and the man who works for us.
Q. I mean those that ....
A. Then we let rooms to other people.
Q. I do not care for that. You live on the side of your house towards the Borden's?
A. Live all over the house. [emphasis mine]
Q. Oh, do you?” [It would be interesting to have heard his tone here.] (Trial, 353+)
She calls Lizzie by her first name but Lizzie uses a more formal address for her – it makes me wonder how Mrs. Churchill and Emma addressed each other? -- they were so close in age I always wish I knew more about New England 1890’s social interaction in general. Hopefully Parallel Lives will help in this regard.
Did Lizzie look down on Addie because she took in lodgers? Would Lizzie have considered herself a cut above because she and her sister were ladies of leisure, in comparison? After all, the Borden girls basically only had to look after their own bedrooms and had a maid to cook and do the laundry. Mrs. Churchill mentions her yardman, Thomas Bowles, but did we ever hear mention of any inside household help?
I commented a few years ago on the forum about the fact she made no mention of her lodgers until pressed by the defense:
At the Inquest:
"Q. You live in the next house to Mr. A. J. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Up or down stairs?
A. Down stairs, or all over the house, there is only one family." [emphasis mine] (Inquest)
At the Preliminary Hearing: She say she occupies the whole house where she lives.
At the Trial: When the prosecution asks if she occupies the whole house she answers in the affirmative.
So not until Robinson's trial cross-examination do we hear she shares the house with paying guests:
"Q. Who are the members of your family, first?
A. My immediate family, my mother and sister and her daughter, and my son and the man who works for us.
Q. I mean those that ....
A. Then we let rooms to other people.
Q. I do not care for that. You live on the side of your house towards the Borden's?
A. Live all over the house. [emphasis mine]
Q. Oh, do you?” [It would be interesting to have heard his tone here.] (Trial, 353+)
She calls Lizzie by her first name but Lizzie uses a more formal address for her – it makes me wonder how Mrs. Churchill and Emma addressed each other? -- they were so close in age I always wish I knew more about New England 1890’s social interaction in general. Hopefully Parallel Lives will help in this regard.
-
DJ
- Posts: 794
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:12 pm
- Real Name:
Diana, thanks for the summation/insights on the Household Churchill.
Yes, she probably thought Emma and Lizzie were indolent, while they probably looked down on her for taking in boarders.
There seems to be a good bit of "Yankee Pride" about Mrs. C., not wanting to sound as if she's running a boardinghouse.
Lizzie probably got used to calling her "Mrs. Churchill" when the Bordens first moved next door, and Lizzie was much younger. I think we all know how hard it is to switch to a first name when we're used, from a youthful vantage point, to calling someone "Mrs." or "Mr."
Too, it must have been proper to use the married courtesy title, but, if one were close to someone, surely it would have been considered fine to refer to them by first name.
(Or "Mother," as opposed to Mrs. Borden.)
Yes, it would be interesting to know what Emma called Mrs. C. (to her face and in polite co., that is).
Yes, she probably thought Emma and Lizzie were indolent, while they probably looked down on her for taking in boarders.
There seems to be a good bit of "Yankee Pride" about Mrs. C., not wanting to sound as if she's running a boardinghouse.
Lizzie probably got used to calling her "Mrs. Churchill" when the Bordens first moved next door, and Lizzie was much younger. I think we all know how hard it is to switch to a first name when we're used, from a youthful vantage point, to calling someone "Mrs." or "Mr."
Too, it must have been proper to use the married courtesy title, but, if one were close to someone, surely it would have been considered fine to refer to them by first name.
(Or "Mother," as opposed to Mrs. Borden.)
Yes, it would be interesting to know what Emma called Mrs. C. (to her face and in polite co., that is).
-
Kat
- Posts: 14767
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
I agree with you Diana.
Thinking along the lines of status- all these things are influences:
marriage, boarders/lodgers, daughter of a past mayor vs. daughters of a relatively rich man.
I think socially they were probably about equal, except Mrs. Churchill, being married (if widowed), and a mother of a son, living in her own home, trumps the spinsters Borden.
Did Mrs. Churchill own that home or did her mother?
Also, tho, many folks in that area had boarders- even Dr. Bowen: he had Mary Wyatt.
Thinking along the lines of status- all these things are influences:
marriage, boarders/lodgers, daughter of a past mayor vs. daughters of a relatively rich man.
I think socially they were probably about equal, except Mrs. Churchill, being married (if widowed), and a mother of a son, living in her own home, trumps the spinsters Borden.
Did Mrs. Churchill own that home or did her mother?
Also, tho, many folks in that area had boarders- even Dr. Bowen: he had Mary Wyatt.