Morse's behavior.

[snokkums]

I got to thinking about John Morse's behavior after the murders. I know he was out of the house at the time of the murders, but to come back from town and see a crowd of people and a guard at the door of the house, and to stop and eat a pear from the tree from the backyard seems to be a little odd.Is it possible that he heard of the murders while he was down town so he wasn't all that shaken up? And to have such persice(spellling) knowledge of his alibi seems odd. I mean, he even remembered the streetcar drivers badge number. Just seems to detailed.

[Yooper]

For Morse to use the badge number of the streetcar driver as a prearranged part of his alibi, he had to be aware of the murders before he left the streetcar, and perhaps before he entered it. My best guess is that Morse realized quickly that he would be suspected and he was trying to arrange his thoughts before he went in the house. He didn't necessarily know that Lizzie and Bridget hadn't been killed along with Andrew and Abby, after all, why wouldn't he assume as much? He might well have been trying to cover for what could be seen as disinterest on his part by saying he didn't notice a crowd. He would then have no reason to immediately rush into the house.

[shakiboo]

Did anyone ever talk to the streetcar driver about seeing Morse? That is really strange on Morse's part I think.

[Yooper]

I don't recall anything about the streetcar driver being interviewed, but it might be in the witness statements if he was interviewed by police. This would have been done early on because he was the first one suspected of the murders. His niece may have corroborated his story about the visit and a statement by the streetcar driver recognizing Morse was unnecessary. Just putting the badge number on the proper car at the proper time and location would have been enough.

I don't know why anyone would take particular notice of a badge number, but everyone is different. I wouldn't likely notice a badge number, but others might. After all, the purpose of wearing a numbered badge is to be recognized, for whatever reason might arise. Morse could have held some superstitious beliefs about certain numbers, it may be more common than we think. Many buildings have no thirteenth floor, they skip that number. Some folks might avoid taking flight number 666, and so on...

[shakiboo]

Your probably right Yooper, but still......there are so many little things like that, that make ya go "huh?" That's what makes this so addictive and fascinating!! How long exactly would you think it took to kill Abby? Two or three minutes? Possibly not even that long, but then add in the time between the two dying and it just boggles the mind!! It changes everything, it's no longer a murder of loss of control, or someone becoming for what ever reason momentarily insane and killing Abby. If that were the case they couldn't have patiently, cooly waited for Andrew. Could they? But apparently someone did just that.....

[Yooper]

Sometimes I think we would be just as suspicious if everything went in exactly the expected, predictable way. That tends to look like fabrication, too! I would expect it took no more than a couple of minutes to kill Abby, I imagine the hatchet was used in a rage, rather rapidly. I also think Abby was the primary target, Andrew was an afterthought when the opportunity presented itself. If Andrew was the primary target, how do we explain the apparent rage at Abby? By all accounts, no one other than possibly the Borden sisters, hated Abby. No one had reason to. Keep in mind, the murders were focused. Abby and Andrew were victims while Lizzie and Bridget were spared. Reason necessarily applied that day.

[shakiboo]

The only thing then, that makes any sence, is Lizzie did it. But she didn't think it through very good, or she'd have left the house immediately after killing Abby, stopped to tell Bridget she herself was going to that sale and see what there was to be had, left the front door unlocked and maybe even mentioned something to the effect that she thought Abby had gone to lie down or something. Staying around to wait for Andrew was not very smart. She of all people had to know what a busy street they lived on, that any stranger would be noticed immediately, that she and Bridgett would come under suspicion.

[Yooper]

If Andrew had been spared, I'm sure he would have suspected Lizzie. The best Lizzie could hope for in that circumstance would have been for the blame to fall on Bridget, if Lizzie left the house after killing Abby. I suspect Lizzie was trying to steer the investigation toward an intruder. She seemed to want to spare Bridget from suspicion as well as anyone else who worked for her father. The only way to handle that was to remain in the house, which also tends to steer the focus away from her. Most people would expect the murderer to run away and not sound the alarm. It might have looked more suspicious if Lizzie had left the house for a time after killing Abby.

[shakiboo]

She protected Bridget right from the start, do you think she was willing to take the fall if she'd have been found guilty?

[snokkums]

From Yooper: "For Morse to use the baadge numberof the streetcar driver as a prearranged part of the alibi because h e had to be aware of the murders before he left the street car, and pershaps before he entered the house."

This would suggest that he was in on the murders or he got told of the murders. At any rate, I have to agree with you about that he probably realized he would be suspected when he entered the house.

From Shakiboo: " But still, there are so many things that make ya go huh?" I am with you on that Shakiboo.

[shakiboo]

Hi Snokkums! lol no matter in what direction you go, you end up even more perplexed. And at the same time more fascinated!

[Yooper]

She protected Bridget right from the start, do you think she was willing to take the fall if she'd have been found guilty?

Lizzie would have had no choice if she had been found guilty. She might rat out an accomplice, but it would be all over for her either way. Sometimes what she doesn't do is more telling than what she does. I think an innocent person would be raising the roof about the authorities not pursuing the real killer. Given the proceeds of Andrew's estate, Emma could have hired any number of private detectives if the Fall River police fell short of the mark. The fact that they hired one detective for a couple of days does nothing to address the righteous indignation which should have been present. That was the legalistic minimum, just so no one could correctly say they didn't try, it was a matter of going through the motions.

[shakiboo]

Emma being the eldest would have been the one to make decisions like that wouldn't she? Once again it's hard to put myself in their place, because they lived in such a different world then we do. Why bother with a detective at all? She had nothing to gain or lose by letting one look around. Would it have mattered? I do think if your guilty yoou'd be more concerned with all the right things you should be doing though. She just acted totally unconcerned. But then we don't know why she made the decisions she made, we don't know who was giving her advise, or how much of what she did was her's and not Emma's doing. They after all were JUST women. I'm sure Morse would have tried to take the reins, being the closest male relative.

[SteveS.]

I think Attorney Jenkins took the reins right from the start and was dictating to Emma and Lizzie what they should and should not do. I think he knew (or suspected) more then we will ever know.

[shakiboo]

I think Attorney Jenkins took the reins right from the start and was dictating to Emma and Lizzie what they should and should not do. I think he knew (or suspected) more then we will ever know.

Was he her lawyer before the murders? I know he was one of them after the fact. If she did it I can't imagine her admitting to it, not even to her lawyer. I can't see her telling anyone, not ever.

[Yooper]

Andrew Jennings was Andrew Borden's attorney before the murders and he was Lizzie's lawyer also. He was involved early on and he may well have advised Lizzie and Emma to hire the Pinkerton detective Hanscom. He only worked for a couple of days and then left. Maybe he discovered who the murderer was and there was no point in hiring anyone else to arrive at the same conclusion!

[snokkums]

I don't recall anything about the streetcar driver being interviewed, but it might be in the witness statements if he was interviewed by police. This would have been done early on because he was the first one suspected of the murders. His niece may have corroborated his story about the visit and a statement by the streetcar driver recognizing Morse was unnecessary. Just putting the badge number on the proper car at the proper time and location would have been enough.

I don't know why anyone would take particular notice of a badge number, but everyone is different. I wouldn't likely notice a badge number, but others might. After all, the purpose of wearing a numbered badge is to be recognized, for whatever reason might arise. Morse could have held some superstitious beliefs about certain numbers, it may be more common than we think. Many buildings have no thirteenth floor, they skip that number. Some folks might avoid taking flight number 666, and so on...

It would have been intgeresting to hear what the streetcar driver had to say. and I am like you are Yooper, I don't know why anyone would take such care in notice a badge number, unless he was trying to make sure to get the suspicion away from him.

[shakiboo]

Andrew Jennings was Andrew Borden's attorney before the murders and he was Lizzie's lawyer also. He was involved early on and he may well have advised Lizzie and Emma to hire the Pinkerton detective Hanscom. He only worked for a couple of days and then left. Maybe he discovered who the murderer was and there was no point in hiring anyone else to arrive at the same conclusion!

Being a Pinkerton Agent, wouldn't he, if finding any evidence in a murder case, have to tell the athorities? I think, had he uncovered anything like that, there would be at least rumors of it, if not offical documents turning up. People talk, word would have gotten out somewhere along the way. Don't ya think?

[Yooper]

I'm not sure what the law is regarding evidence obtained privately. I would guess that it would be pretty hard to justify withholding it from the authorities. Hanscom left shortly after Lizzie burned the dress, maybe that had something to do with his conclusions.

[shakiboo]

Did he quit, or was he told his services were no longer required? I don't see where her burning the dress would matter if he was hired to find a killer outside of the family. Wouldn't that make the family not of his concern? But there again, Lizzie could have bided her time and waited till she was alone to do away with that dress, they hadn't found it up to that time.

[Yooper]

I don't know why his employment on the Borden case ended when it did, he was dismissed, he quit, or he finished his job, seem to be the logical conclusions. It would be difficult to hire someone to specifically find a killer outside the family, I wouldn't want to have my hands tied like that if it was me. If he was hired to find the murderer, that would not exclude anyone. It's entirely possible that he found the culprit to be Lizzie, so his job was finished. Burning the dress might have been the frosting on the cake. Disposing of a dress she should have taken great care to preserve if it wasn't incriminating was a deliberate act. Nobody is quite that naive, to not realize it was important.

[shakiboo]

It just seems like she went out of her way to have them point the finger at her. The way she acted, the things she said, like "she wasn't my mother, she was my step mother" at a time like that, why would you say something like that, especially if you were guilty?

[Yooper]

Someone dispassionate might say something like that, someone in complete control of their emotions. Someone who could be interviewed "now as well as any other time" would be concerned with those details. That doesn't make her guilty, but it does support the contention that she was cold and emotionless.

[shakiboo]

I know what your saying, but the case they had against her was iffy at best, but it was mostly based on the things she did and said, or didn't say and didn't do. And of course she was there.

[Yooper]

The prosecution's case was entirely circumstantial, and Lizzie didn't have to prove her innocence. The entire case was a political hot potato, Pillsbury, the Attorney General cited ill health and handed it off to District Attorney Knowlton, Knowlton wrote a letter back to Pillsbury trying to beg off the case, it seems nobody wanted to prosecute it. I think they were afraid they might win and it might be the end of their political career!

[Harry]

In June 2004 I wrote an article for The Hatchet magazine, Spotlight on Orinton M. Hanscom. I had written to the Boston Police Department and they supplied me with information on his career. Here is a portion of that article:

"... At the time of the Borden murders in 1892, Orinton Hanscom was Superintendent of the Pinkerton Detective Agency in Boston. He was hired by Lizzie and Emma Borden at the suggestion of their attorney, Andrew J. Jennings, and arrived in Fall River on Saturday, August 6th.

The Fall River police immediately suspected that Hanscom was hired to protect the Borden sisters from them and his presence was deeply resented. Along with Jennings, Hanscom was suspected of placing hindrances in the way of their investigation.

On August 14th, Robert Pinkerton, head of the Pinkerton company, in an article carried in the Fall River Herald, announced that at his suggestion Hanscom had withdrawn from the case with the continuing hostility of the police being cited as the reason. In that article, Pinkerton claimed that Hanscom was “hired by the family to follow any clues that might lead to the detection of the criminal.”

The August 14th date however is at odds with an article that appeared in a Hastings, Iowa paper dated August 19th. The article, in part, contained the following “While Morse has succeeded in establishing a very fair alibi, it seems that Lizzie Borden, who is now under arrest for the murder, is anxious to know something of his past record. She has accordingly sent Detective Hanscom out here to investigate.

Exactly how long Hanscom was in the employ of the defense and what his findings were are not known as no records have ever been revealed."

There's a lot more on Hanscom in the article including his photo

[SteveS.]

Thank you Harry. I knew that I had read somewhere that it was Attorney Jenkins behind the hiring of Det. Hanscom.

[shakiboo]

Wow, that's interesting! So, in other words Morse was being checked out for some reason by the family? Hmmmm, do you think that they thought he might be involved? They sure didn't have anything to do with him, or he with them from that point on. He was there closest living relative, wasn't he?

[SallyG]

I would imagine that Jennings suggested the investigation into Morse's background...it probably threw the focus off of Lizzie and onto someone else. That would be a good strategy. Jennings probably had a very good idea of who really committed the murders, but it was still his job to defend Lizzie, regardless of his own opinions. That's what he was being paid for, and paid quite handsomely, I might add.

[Yooper]

If the Pinkerton Agency was able to be intimidated by the local police force to the point of abandoning their investigation, what were they good for? If Hanscom was purposely hindering the investigation, there would likely have been penalties involved. I don't understand how Hanscom might protect Lizzie and Emma from the police or why it would be necessary. Besides, if Lizzie needed protection, wouldn't she turn to Jennings first? Something about this isn't quite right. I don't doubt that Hanscom was hired to find the murderer, but why would that subvert the police effort? I agree that sending Hanscom to check on Morse sounds like a diversion.

[shakiboo]

The police could throw up roadblocks, or just simply refuse to share any information with Hanscom. That would get tiresome real quick and he wouldn't really be able to find out anything.

[rgreen4411]

This kind of crime does not usually involve premeditation. Author Masterton places the deaths closer together in time that previously thought. Refresh my memory please. Did one author say Morse "reeked of pears"? Did he eat only one? I suspect he used the pears to clean blood from his skin.

[SallyG]

How would Morse get blood on himself when it has been very well established where he was, and when he was there? No one noticed this blood?

[Angel]

Is it written in stone that Mrs. Borden was seen after Morse left the house? Or could he have whacked her and then left? And does anyone know if the relatives Morse was visiting gave an exact time when he left their house to return to the Bordens? Or was it indefinite enough that he could have come back to the house earlier, taken care of Andrew and then made himself scarce in the barn or somewhere until he decided to make himself look like he was just returning? If he killed Abby, left to go to the visit, returned and then killed Andrew, it would explain the hour and a half time lapse.

[Yooper]

Morse left before Andrew, he would have had to kill Abby while Andrew and everyone else was still in the house. The time Morse left to return for lunch was fairly specific and he would have had to leave substantially earlier to have killed Andrew.

By the way, Hanscom was hired to look out for the interest of the Bordens, not to look for the murderer. If looking out for Lizzie's interests included harassing the police and subverting their investigation, it doesn't look good for Lizzie's case.