Emma pu the idea in Lizzies head

[snokkums]

I have always thought this. I never thought that Lizzie could have come up with the idea of killing her parents all on her own. I am thinking that maybe Emma might have made suggestions. Maybe not right out and said gave her the idea, but she was always trashing Abby. And Lizzie never knew her mother but what Emma told her.

I think that Emma felt Abby was moving in on her territory and didn't like it. And Emma didn't have enough combtion to do the deed. And Lizzie wasn't bright enough to see that Emma was just venting, so i am thinking that Lizzie thought that Emma wanted her out of the picture.

[Steveads2004]

I think Emma was on her visit because she knew something was happening at the house she wanted no part of. I do not think she thought murder would happen. The deaths were unplanned and unexpected. The "plan" whatever it was, unravelled and Lizzie was all alone to minimize the damage. Thats why there are so many small but crucial holes in the "story". She did the best she could, and quite a good job at that, of damage control. Everyone involved, JVM Lizzie Emma etc ended up Ok but they were always worried it would all explode again. Hence the lawyer never closing the case.

[kssunflower]

I think Morse had some role in what happened too and was not just an innocent bystander. He's such an intriguing character.

[snokkums]

Yeah I think Morse had more to do with it. He just seemed to have his alibi too precise, tight.

[Yooper]

According to Emma's trial testimony, both Lizzie and Emma left on July 21st, Emma went to Fairhaven, Lizzie to New Bedford. Lizzie returned to Fall River on the 26th, before spending the day of the 30th in Marion. I wonder if their leaving on the same day was coincidence or if there was a reason for it.

[shakiboo]

They both had to make plans to go, because you couldn't just pop in on some one back then, so they'd have had to know they were going before they actually went. Right? Transportation also had to be arranged for the both of them.

[Yooper]

You're right, there was probably a bit of planning and corresponding involved, so it was most likely just coincidence.

[SallyG]

I have always thought this. I never thought that Lizzie could have come up with the idea of killing her parents all on her own. I am thinking that maybe Emma might have made suggestions. Maybe not right out and said gave her the idea, but she was always trashing Abby. And Lizzie never knew her mother but what Emma told her.

I think that Emma felt Abby was moving in on her territory and didn't like it. And Emma didn't have enough combtion to do the deed. And Lizzie wasn't bright enough to see that Emma was just venting, so i am thinking that Lizzie thought that Emma wanted her out of the picture.

Saying that Lizzie could not have come up with the idea of killing her parents on her own insinuates that Lizzie was a dimwitted individual incapable of making her own decisions. I think the opposite is true...Lizzie was fairly intelligent and, in the end, acted on her own. I doubt "murder" was an option that Emma suggested...we can all "trash" someone without suggesting they should be eliminated. I highly doubt Lizzie thought Emma was suggesting that she kill Abby.

If Emma felt Abby was moving in on her "territory", she had a great many years to mull that over...Abby and Andrew had been married for a very long time. Emma was well into spinsterhood...in fact, so was Lizzie. Emma was probably, as a young teen, resentful of Abby when she and Andrew were married, and probably carried that resentment into adulthood.

I think the only "territory" that either girl cared about was the money that Andrew would be leaving behind when he died. Sadly, in the end, it was all about money.

[snokkums]

I have always thought this. I never thought that Lizzie could have come up with the idea of killing her parents all on her own. I am thinking that maybe Emma might have made suggestions. Maybe not right out and said gave her the idea, but she was always trashing Abby. And Lizzie never knew her mother but what Emma told her.

I think that Emma felt Abby was moving in on her territory and didn't like it. And Emma didn't have enough combtion to do the deed. And Lizzie wasn't bright enough to see that Emma was just venting, so i am thinking that Lizzie thought that Emma wanted her out of the picture.

Saying that Lizzie could not have come up with the idea of killing her parents on her own insinuates that Lizzie was a dimwitted individual incapable of making her own decisions. I think the opposite is true...Lizzie was fairly intelligent and, in the end, acted on her own. I doubt "murder" was an option that Emma suggested...we can all "trash" someone without suggesting they should be eliminated. I highly doubt Lizzie thought Emma was suggesting that she kill Abby.

If Emma felt Abby was moving in on her "territory", she had a great many years to mull that over...Abby and Andrew had been married for a very long time. Emma was well into spinsterhood...in fact, so was Lizzie. Emma was probably, as a young teen, resentful of Abby when she and Andrew were married, and probably carried that resentment into adulthood.

I think the only "territory" that either girl cared about was the money that Andrew would be leaving behind when he died. Sadly, in the end, it was all about money.

I'm not saying Lizzie was dimmwitted. All I am saying is that Lizzie never knew her mother, only what Emma was telling her. I think Emma just didn't have the guts to act upon what was feeling. I think Lizzie might have taking care of what both the girls thought was theirs; thier inheirtance, their home.
I think they both thought that Abby was moving in on the situation.

I think if Emma hadn't of been bad mouthing Abby and telling Lizzie about her biological mother, Lizzie might have thought of Abby as her mother. Who knows for sure.

[Yooper]

I think the root of the matter was control, and money was the primary means to that end, so ultimately it really was all about money. If Andrew Borden had not amassed a fortune, I doubt the murders would have occurred.

At the same time, I wonder if Emma's attitude toward Abby had been different, if the murders would have occurred. I get the impression that there was a power struggle between Emma and Abby all along about influence over Andrew and Lizzie. If Emma resented Abby's presence from the start, Lizzie was another matter entirely. Lizzie was a small child, she would have been receptive to a mother figure. Emma was a teenager at the time, which may have given Abby an advantage at first. As Emma matured, she may have been more successful in portraying a mother figure to Lizzie, but it might have been necessary to undo some of what had been done.

Somewhere along the line the Borden daughters realized that Andrew was worth a great deal of money and they could entertain ideas far beyond what their day-to-day existence suggested. Emma probably saw this first, depending upon when it occurred, but it gave them something to aspire to as long as the fortune remained intact and under Borden control. Given Andrew's habits, he certainly would not have presented a threat to their future well-being, quite the opposite. As much as they may have complained about living beneath their means, the Borden daughters at least had a sense of security that the family's wealth wasn't likely to be squandered or misdirected. That is, until the incident over the Whitehead residence. This demonstrated Abby's influence over Andrew, which likely presented a threat to the family fortune, the golden egg. It was unlikely that Andrew would have pursued the matter on his own, Abby almost certainly promoted it.

If the Borden daughters felt compelled to nurture their golden egg and to protect it from harm, might that have had an influence over a choice of whether to marry or not? They may have remained spinsters out of choice rather than necessity.

I don't know what Lizzie's relative intelligence level was, I would assume somewhere near average, without reason to believe otherwise. However, you don't need to be particularly bright in order to be sneaky. I doubt that Lizzie was an automaton subject to Emma's direction, and I doubt that "Emma made me do it" was a viable defense. If Lizzie had any inclination toward murdering her parents, Emma might have indirectly supported it. How many of their conversations might have been directed toward "If it wasn't for Abby..."?

[snokkums]

I have always thought the money and inheirtance was invovled, and Emma just thought Abby was moving on what she thought was theirs. She just passed the ideas on to Lizzie. I also think that Emma was more jealous.

[Yooper]

I wonder if Lizzie might have expected Emma to share some of the blame for the murders, just between the two of them? Lizzie's reaction to Alice's "revelation" that burning the dress was a bad thing was along the lines of "how could you let me do it?" Was Lizzie in the habit of blaming others for her actions, or did she expect them to bear some of the responsibility? If she expected that, it was awfully immature for someone 32 years of age. If people actually did that, it would tend to encourage outlandish behavior.

[snokkums]

I wonder if Lizzie might have expected Emma to share some of the blame for the murders, just between the two of them? Lizzie's reaction to Alice's "revelation" that burning the dress was a bad thing was along the lines of "how could you let me do it?" Was Lizzie in the habit of blaming others for her actions, or did she expect them to bear some of the responsibility? If she expected that, it was awfully immature for someone 32 years of age. If people actually did that, it would tend to encourage outlandish behavior.

i think she was just used to having her father bailing her out. Remember there was something going around on the board that she had shopedlifted at the department store, and her father paid for the items. Or something like that. I just remember reading something about that, and that charges were never brought against her. She might just figured that Emma or someone would bail her out.

But, you are right Yooper, it is immature behavior for someone of 32.

[shakiboo]

When I first read about the dress burning, and what was said and done, at the time. I took it differently. Here's the set-up- Lizzie and Emma couldn't go out and had to stay in the house. So, I imagined that they were both getting bored, and were looking for things to keep them busy. Like extra cleaning and sorting through closets, etc and Lizzie came across the ruined dress and decided to get it out of the way, so she went to the kitchen to burn it. She wasn't even careful about who was there, she just stuck it in the stove. Then when Alice said something to her about it possibly not being something she should be doing because of the murders and the looking for blood on clothing, her reaction was "How could you have just stood there and let me do it, why didn't you say something" . No that wasn't her exact words but that was how I took it. Of course, Emma said too that the dress had had paint on it and was ruined. I thought if she had really burned the dress that had blood on it she would have been a whole lot more careful in the doing of it, like waiting till Alice went out, and maybe Emma was taking a nap. It had been safely hidden till then.

[Yooper]

The point is, Alice did say something while Lizzie burned the dress, and Lizzie ignored it. If Lizzie didn't understand Alice's warning, she didn't question it at the time, she deliberately continued burning the dress. Only when Hanscomb was made aware of the dress burning did it become wrong to have done it, and then it was someone else's fault, Lizzie certainly wasn't required to be aware of wrongdoing, even after being warned at the time by Alice!

[SallyG]

I believe that Lizzie, when told by Alice that "I wouldn't let anyone see me doing that if I were you", or along those lines, Lizzie actually stepped back to avoid being seen by anyone and continued with her dress burning. So she knew, then and there, that it was a suspicious looking activity that she should probably not be doing. She did not respond with concern, as in "oh, you're right...this WOULD look suspicious" and discontinue burning the dress, or at least what was left of it. She simply stepped back to avoid being seen by anyone and carried on!! Lizzie KNEW! But apparently that dress had to be gotten rid of. She probably figured it would look more innocent just doing it out in the open than covertly burning it when no one was around! Now that WOULD look suspicious.

She probably also counted on Alice keeping her trap shut!!

[Yooper]

I think anyone over the age of ten would know it was wrong to burn the dress under the prevailing circumstances. If Lizzie truly didn't know right from wrong, maybe she didn't think murder was wrong! Emma stood there and let it happen, too. Alice's comment certainly implies that Lizzie was doing something she shouldn't, and neither Emma nor Lizzie questioned it. Lizzie's reaction to the comment indicates that she heard what Alice said.

[SallyG]

Emma actually encouraged her to burn the dress, saying "yes, why don't you", or something of the sort, when Lizzie announced her intention, so she was basically giving Lizzie the green light to go ahead. It makes me feel that Emma knew Lizzie was guilty, and was perhaps seeing the dress burning as a way to eliminate possible evidence of Lizzie's guilt. I think Emma KNEW, like we all know, deep within our heart, when someone we are close to does something wrong..even though we would not admit it, we just KNOW!

Alice, however, was out of the loop, and did not KNOW! I think she really suspected, up to that point, that Lizzie was innocent and the Bordens had been attacked and killed by an intruder, and that Lizzie and Bridget had been spared. I think the dress burning incident bothered her because it brought up the possibility that not only might Lizzie have actually committed the murders herself, but Emma may be trying to help cover for Lizzie.

I know Alice had no contact with Lizzie after the trial, but did she distance herself from Emma as well? She and Emma had been rather close friends. Did Emma drop Alice because she blabbed about the dress burning? Or did Alice withdraw from the whole Borden clan?

[Yooper]

I guess once you've started doing something wrong, you might as well continue. For Lizzie to have stopped burning the dress when Alice cautioned her would have indicated her intent as well as calling attention to the dress itself. All the more reason to think that Lizzie believed the dress would incriminate her. Emma's testimony sounds a bit made up to me, I think she was trying to cover for Lizzie. Whether she encouraged Lizzie to burn the dress or not, saying she did tends to absolve her of any guilt for not preventing it when Alice cautioned Lizzie against it. From another perspective, Emma was ten years older than Lizzie and if Emma didn't know burning the dress was wrong, she certainly couldn't have taught Lizzie right from wrong!

[Chichibcc]

I used to think that Emma was involved, but now I'm not so sure...if she was, wouldn't she have wanted to be present at the house herself to make sure everything went "according to plan?" Why would she leave Lizzie to do all the "dirty work?"

If Emma wasn't involved, I wonder if she ever suspected Lizzie, even for just a millisecond.

It's so odd-I think we know even less about Emma than we do Lizzie.

[Yooper]

It wasn't just Lizzie who disliked or hated Abby, Emma did, too. They both avoided the elder Bordens to the same degree. I get the idea that Lizzie was a good bit more demonstrative than Emma, but that doesn't mean Emma was any less sincere about wanting a change in their lives. It could be that Emma was relieved when she got the news about Andrew and Abby. She might even have been grateful for Lizzie taking the burden, Emma wasn't facing murder charges. Emma may have known full well Lizzie was guilty and covered for her. I think Lizzie took advantage of Emma's absence to avoid implicating Emma. I also think Lizzie acted alone, she spent enough time tripping over her own testimony without having to deal with coordinating testimonies with someone else.

[Chichibcc]

I can't believe Lizzie actually had the nerve to call her stepmother "Mrs. Borden"-that's how you would address a teacher at school or something-not your stepmother!

If I had addressed my stepdad that way as a teenager-my mom would've slapped me so hard my head would've never stopped spinning.

Poor Abby-I can't imagine how hurt she had to feel.