Well planned or spur of the moment?

[snokkums]

I have always thought about this. Did Lizzie plann the murder, think things thru, or was it the spur of the moment thing? The day of the murder she did come down the stairs about 9 a.m. Some of that I think was so that she could avoid the parents. But did she plan or did she just act on a whim?

[Yooper]

I get the idea that the murders had purpose, control over the integrity of the family fortune from Lizzie and Emma's perspective. Somehow or another, murder had become the only means to accomplish that end result. The method was rather haphazard, an attempt to buy poison, then the use of a hatchet, it almost implies desperation. In my opinion, the murder or murders were contemplated some amount of time before the fact, but the method was optional. The conversation with Alice Russell the night before the murders seems to set the stage for a planned tragedy.

[snokkums]

I think that Lizzie just had a lot of frustration and hate built up over the years, so if she did do the deed, might have boiled over on that day. spur of the moment even though she might have been thinking about it over the years. Got to get rid of the wicked step mom.

[Yooper]

I expect Emma was the one with a long term dislike for Abby, Lizzie maybe somewhat less so. That is, until Andrew purchased an interest in the Whitehead house for Abby, that was a turning point. That may have put Lizzie firmly in league with Emma. The Whitehead transaction took place five years before the murders, so I doubt it was reason enough for the murders by itself. Something else likely triggered it, the threat of a will maybe. Killing Abby prevented Andrew from willing his money to her, and killing Andrew prevented him from willing it to anyone else.

[shakiboo]

Emma was a young women when Andrew married Abby, and must have really resented her. Up till then she'd had the care of Lizzie and more then likely the running of the household. To have to step back and hand it all over to someone else would have been terrible for her. She'd have (in her mind) lost everything right then. That had to fester and eat away at her. It would of course then become, in a sense, a tug of war over Lizzie. There's no way she'd have let Lizzie go, and it's hard to tell what Lizzie went through, she was still pretty young at that time. Imagine being bombarded every day with that kind of thing. Of course she loved Emma, so what would that have done to her?

[snokkums]

YOu know, always wondered about this. Emma seemed to have the longe term dislike for abby, as stated by Yooper, and like shakiboo said, Andrew married abby when she was Emma was a youn girl, why didnt she murder andrew and abby? Seems to me she had more of a reason, and she did know her biological mother, Lizzie didn't.Lizzie was just going on what Emma told her. She would have been more resentful of Abby Emma had more to lose.

[Yooper]

Looking after Lizzie might be the reason Emma never married. I can see the stage set for Lizzie to be over indulged at every turn, by either Abby or Emma. Lizzie may have learned to play one against the other to get what she wanted, the loyalty contest was all she knew, if that was the case. However, the Whitehead house would have changed that for good. Lizzie would have sided with Emma after that.

[Allen]

In my opinion, there was some planning done long before hand. I think Lizzie may have thought about killing her parents, and different methods of murder, for quite some time. I think she may have even experimented with different methods long before ever trying to purchase prussic acid. There is the account of one shop owner saying she came in to buy Chloroform from him over the counter. What did she need chloroform for? What had been her plan for using it? I'm not so sure the method was set in stone. But the plans were probably pondered a great deal. Lizzie had years while living under the same roof with Abby and Andrew to get their schedules and habits memorized so planning was probably a fairly easy task. Even if it happened on the spur of the moment due to some unforseen event, she had those years of observing them to pretty much be able to predict their movements. It would be the same as me knowing what time my daughter gets home from school, or when you're spouse gets home from work, what they usually do when they get home, if they nap, what time they go to bed, what time they usually go out...etc. She'd had 30+ years of observation under her belt. You get to know people and their habits very intimately in all that time. I think she at first tried poison and that didn't work, and being spooked because Abby seemed to smell a rat and had gone to Dr. Bowen, she switched to a more straight forward and definite method. I think Uncle John showing up might have actually speeded things up. Abby had already talked to Dr. Bowen, what if she began discussing her concerns with Morse? Would he, knowing the animosity that Lizzie and Emma felt, have shrugged it off as easily as Bowen?

[Yooper]

I'm not sure how much luck Abby would have had convincing Morse of a fear for her life. She would be casting aspersions upon his nieces, he might not take her too seriously. If Andrew had spoken to Morse about it, he would probably have been more likely to listen. Still, there may have been a fear that Abby might go to the police or to Jennings or some other individual with her concern. An attempt to buy poison and a hatchet murder within 24 hours looks a lot like desperation.

[shakiboo]

Yes it does, if we could just get to the WHY of it, we'd be alot wiser!

[Yooper]

The why is anybody's guess. What it looks like from here is a short term motive was apprehension over Abby blabbing about a fear for her life. Intermediate term motive supporting the short term would be apprehension over a will being made favoring Abby at the expense of Lizzie and Emma. The long term motive supporting the others might be the apprehension over Abby and her family inheriting more than the minimum from Andrew's estate. I'm sure that's just one of several possibilities.

[shakiboo]

Well, I gotta say, you wrapped that up in a neat package!! And it sounds right on!!

[kssunflower]

I think Uncle John showing up might have actually speeded things up. Abby had already talked to Dr. Bowen, what if she began discussing her concerns with Morse? Would he, knowing the animosity that Lizzie and Emma felt, have shrugged it off as easily as Bowen?

Morse's presence at the house is part of why I'm so intrigued by this case. We'll never know if he was part of an intentional plan, unwittingly triggered the day's events, or was just an innocent bystander.

[Yooper]

The only thing that comes to mind is Bence's testimony about Lizzie attempting to buy Prussic Acid. That took place before Morse arrived. It's pretty hard to be target specific if the plan was to poison the food and Morse seemed to be enough of a chow hound to put himself at risk.

[shakiboo]

So then what your saying is that Lizzie first planned to poison them, but changed tactic's because Uncle John arrived and would have possibly died with them. Well then too, not to mention what they might have said to him about being afraid of being poisoned.

[Yooper]

What I'm saying is that if Morse was a part of a plan to kill the Bordens by poison, he probably would not have eaten there. If the plan changed because Morse had arrived, then he probably wasn't a part of it.

[shakiboo]

Oh, ok.....gottcha! lol That does make sense.

[Chichibcc]

I think it was all planned, based on the fact that Lizzie had tried buying poison shortly before the murders.

The real question for me is, did she plan this on her own, or in conjunction with Emma as well?

[SallyG]

With Emma being appointed Lizzie's caretaker, I can't see her plotting to kill Andrew and Abby, then going off visiting and leaving Lizzie to do the dirty work. I think she would have stayed to help! I don't see her being directly responsible...but I do see her being indirectly responsible with her years of badmouthing Abby. I think she had a lot to do with the ill feelings in the house.

[twinsrwe]

... I don't see her being directly responsible...but I do see her being indirectly responsible with her years of badmouthing Abby. I think she had a lot to do with the ill feelings in the house.

I totally agree, Sally. It is my understanding that Emma disliked Abby more than Lizzie did. Sarah gave the responsibility of caring for ‘baby Lizzie’ to Emma, then Abby enters the picture and takes that responsibility away from her. I’m sure Emma displayed a lot of resentment toward Abby by verbally downgrading Abby in front of Lizzie.

I have always felt that Lizzie looked up to Emma, and whatever Emma said or did was condoned by her. I think Emma was an instigator; the dress burning incident is a good example. Assuming Lizzie was the sole killer, all Emma had to do was make a statement to Lizzie that she wished Abby was dead, and the seed would have then been planted.

[Yooper]

I wonder if Lizzie was caught in the middle between Abby and Emma as a child? Maybe if Emma considered Abby an intruder from the start and didn't attempt to hide the fact, Andrew might have more or less remained neutral rather than favor one side over the other. If Lizzie was torn between Abby and Emma, maybe Andrew represented stability to her. I expect Emma had increased influence as Lizzie grew older and I think Emma was responsible for the overall attitude toward Abby.