Any male callers?

[snokkums]

I know Lizzie and Emma never married, but did they ever have male callers? I mean, like, go out on a date or anything?

[shakiboo]

That's a good question! You would think that they would have, as they would have been a good catch. But I don't remember ever hearing of any. It would have had to been alot earlier in their lives though, as they were by the time of the murders, concidered past their prime, and already spinsters. How awful is that?! Lizzie was only 32!

[snokkums]

I think maybe Emma might have had some after the trial, but I wonder if Lizzie would have had any I think if I were a guy , I'd bee afraid to ask Lizzie out.

[Yooper]

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as an age limit to determine spinsterhood, but there was nearly ten years' difference between Emma and Lizzie. If Emma felt compelled to remain in the household until Lizzie reached adulthood, it would put Emma nearly ten years beyond that point. It could be that Andrew or Lizzie and Emma tended to be suspicious of someone trying to marry for money. The only way around that would be for some young man who was wealthier than Andrew to court one of the girls.

[Harry]

Hopefully the new book Parallel Lives will shed some light on this area of the "girl's" lives. There is this in Officer Medley's witness statement (p34-35):

"On the 6th day of October [1892] Curtis I. Piece of Westport came to Fall River, and met Mr. A. J. Jennings. I was informed by Mr. Champlain of the Daily News that Piece was an old lover of Lizzie A. Borden. In order to sift the matter to the bottom, I commenced a thorough investigation. I found that Mr. Piece first met Lizzie Borden at the house of Mr. Tripp at Westport, about ten years ago. At that time Piece was a sort of itinerant preacher, and was doing a little in that line in Westport at that time. While he was on speaking terms with her, yet there was not anything to indicate that Lizzie cared for him. I was told by Mrs. Tripp that Lizzie could hardly tolerate him.

Mr. Piece told me he first met Lizzie at the home of the Tripp's about ten years ago. Was not intimately acquainted with her; he had not met her in over four years, and had not written to her in two years before the murder. He was not her lover, and never was. He never was to her house in his life, and did not know her people, either father, mother or Emma, and had never spoken or written to any of them. He did write to Lizzie since she was sent to Taunton Jail; and the letter was answered by Mr. Jennings. He never wrote to any member of Lizzie's family, expressing regard for Lizzie, or in any other way.

The following is a copy of the letter sent by Mr. Piece to Lizzie. "Westport Sep. 20, 1892. To Miss Lizzie, with friendly greetings. I am very anxious to meet you, and as I cannot presume upon your presence without your permission, will you be so kind as to appoint a day for me to visit you as soon as convenient. I can come any day or hour. Please not deny this one request, believe me you have my deepest sympathy and constant prayer. I am sincerely yours. Curtis I. Piece. Westport Box 34.

Copy of letter sent by Andrew J. Jennings to Curtis I. Piece. Fall River, Mass. September 24, 1892. Mr. Curtis I. Piece. P. O. Box 34, Westport Mass. Dear Sir; Your letter to Sheriff Wright and to Miss Lizzie A. Borden have been handed to me by the latter. For your sympathy, as for that of everybody else in her suffering, she is grateful but she is at a loss to understand why you should presume upon her unfortunate position to open correspondence with her, or write to Sheriff Wright asking for an interview. She does not [wish] to see you, nor to receive letters from you. She has not, tis true, a father to appeal to, or family to compel you to cease your attempts to force yourself upon her notice; but there are others who can and will supply his place. She has told me of your previous conduct, and I am surprised that any man should attempt to renew it under present circumstances. Yours truly, Andrew J. Jennings."

Whether if indeed he ever did have any serious relationship with Lizzie or was just an opportunist trying to latch on to the now wealthy heiress is unknown. Jennings obviously thought the latter.

How this is a matter for a policeman to investigate is beyond me unless something previously had happened that Jennings wanted looked into.

[Yooper]

It seems that Jennings wrote to Piece on September 24th warning him off, the letter clearly states that Lizzie had no interest in a visit, mentioning something about his previous conduct. On October 6th, Piece apparently came to Fall River and met with Jennings in spite of the rebuke. Whether that was the sole reason for his visit is unclear, but he tried to press the matter in any case. He may have tried to bypass Jennings and was told, perhaps by Wright, that he had to see Jennings first. In any event, he had been warned away by Jennings, and here he was appealing to Jennings. His persistence (obsession) might have prompted a visit by Officer Medley at the request of either Jennings or perhaps even by Wright if Wright was aware of Jennings' warning to Piece.

[shakiboo]

Hmmm, it would be real interesting to know what he had done in the past to rally the troops like that. Lizzie would have only been in her twenties at their first meeting. To have anyone even utter the word "lover" in the same conversation would have been a no no, especially concerning a lady. Then he says he hadn't seen her for four years and hadn't written to her in two years, so what was going on? He doesn't say anything about her writing him or how or why he saw her. she apparently didn't want anything to do with him and took steps to see that he couldn't see her. It's strange to to mention that she didn't have a father (any more) to see to it. Isn't that a strange thing to say? Could that have been something only Piece would understand and know the implications for?

[Yooper]

From a mercenary standpoint, Lizzie would inherit quite a bit of money if acquitted. Anyone attempting to court her after acquittal would warrant suspicion. Piece has nothing to lose and everything to gain if he's after her money. The trick is to try to gain her confidence before the outcome of the trial is reached and motives come to question. If Lizzie is convicted, he's out nothing. Since he originally met her some time before the murders and had at least attempted a correspondence, he may have thought he would get in under the radar. I'm sure Jennings knew the score!

[SallyG]

It's strange to to mention that she didn't have a father (any more) to see to it. Isn't that a strange thing to say? Could that have been something only Piece would understand and know the implications for?

Not strange at all for that time period. A woman's father or brothers were always on hand to "discourage" a suitor that a lady had no interest in, especially if he was persistent.

[snokkums]

It's strange to to mention that she didn't have a father (any more) to see to it. Isn't that a strange thing to say? Could that have been something only Piece would understand and know the implications for?

Not strange at all for that time period. A woman's father or brothers were always on hand to "discourage" a suitor that a lady had no interest in, especially if he was persistent.

I can to relate that statement. I have 9 older brothers. At 47 I am still there baby sister. LOL

[Chichibcc]

I wonder if Lizzie and Emma were just maybe a little too picky when it came to finding a mate? Some people are...

[snokkums]

But who would want marry someone who was accused of murdered and the sister who supported her? And after the trial even Emma didn't want anything to do withher.

[Chichibcc]

But who would want marry someone who was accused of murdered and the sister who supported her? And after the trial even Emma didn't want anything to do withher.

I'm sorry, I meant before the murders, if they were just plain old picky about who to date, which could be why they were still unmarried up to that point.

[Yooper]

I still think the problem was the prospect of Andrew Borden as father-in-law. Nobody has that much to offer!

[snokkums]

Yup, think old Andrew would have been a tough cookie as a father in law, and I think that after the murder, who was an accused murderer for a girlfriend and possable wife.

[Chichibcc]

Yes, from what I've read about him, Andrew wasn't exactly a "warm and fuzzy" type of person, and didn't come across as being that likeable, although I have to admit that he was an excellent businessman. I imagine it wasn't very difficult at all for potential suitors to be scared away.

[Yooper]

To be fair about it, we'll never know how Andrew would have been as a father-in-law, he was never afforded the opportunity. I get the idea he was not as hard nosed with his immediate family as he was in business affairs. It could be that he always wanted a son and a son-in-law would have been welcome.

[Chichibcc]

That's true-good point.

[ddborden]

I have a post in the "heritage" section called "possibility that Lizzie Borden had children." I have done some extensive research on this subject as some family members of the late Diane Borden Kessler Schilke asked me to look into this. There is a lady named Elizabeth Kessler that has the same birth month and year as Lizzie Borden and there is very strong evidence/family issues to suggest something fishy was going on. Please read if you have time. I've covered just about everything I could. I personally believe Lizzie Borden and Elizabeth Kessler were the same person and yes there were marriages/relationships and children.

[shakiboo]

Wow, when in her life did that happen? How old was she? How could that have been totally missed by everyone who watched every move she made? Need to hear more!

[snokkums]

Wow, when in her life did that happen? How old was she? How could that have been totally missed by everyone who watched every move she made? Need to hear more!

i am wondering about that too. Maybe she was using the alias when she traveled.

[Yooper]

There really isn't much evidence to support the idea that Lizzie had children, but read the post and decide for yourselves.

[Chichibcc]

It's an interesting theory, that's for sure, but I just don't see it having happened, not at this point, anyway.

[SallyG]

I commented on the post...don't see any evidence at all that leads to Lizzie.

[Yooper]

I think any opportunities for marriage were governed by Lizzie and Emma's expectations. They aspired to the uppermost reaches of Fall River society, and their choice of a husband would pretty well relegate them to whatever social status he possessed. Neither one wanted to marry beneath her perceived station in society, and it may be that their perception was a bit overestimated. No potential suitor wanted to marry beneath his station either, and those who the Borden sisters considered suitable didn't find Lizzie or Emma suitable to them. It could be a simple matter of unreasonable expectations.

[Chichibcc]

I'm sure that suitors would've found them more "suitable" had they lived on "The Hill," a lifestyle their father would've certainly been able to afford, but unfortunately, there was nothing Lizzie or Emma could do to change that-had to be frustrating.

I feel very sorry for women back in those days-their entire identity was essentially shaped by men-nothing in their lives was really all theirs alone.

[Yooper]

Well, there was ONE thing Lizzie and Emma could do to change that! They didn't waste much time in buying Maplecroft after the trial.

The prospect of spinsterhood might have been a bit more tolerable when the woman could expect to inherit a tidy sum from her father. Under those conditions, a woman would not have to compromise her identity through marriage. That would make the prospect of a will favoring a stepmother and her family all the more of a threat.

[Chichibcc]

Concerning the will, I don't think Abby was trying to be greedy or anything, despite what her stepdaughters may have thought-I think she just wanted security in case something happened to Andrew, knowing full well that Lizzie and Emma certainly weren't going to look out for her.

[Yooper]

Oddly enough, Massachusetts law provided for that if Andrew died intestate. Abby would have gotten the proceeds from a portion of Andrew's estate for as long as she lived, with the principal going to Lizzie and Emma upon Abby's death. Lizzie and Emma would have received the majority of Andrew's estate when he died.