Hello

[RichardX]

I've been reading the board for some time and finally got myself registered and even remembered my password! My first experience with Lizzie was the Elizabeth Montgomery movie. Have read most of the books over the years (although I've forgotten some of the details), spent the night at Maplecroft and the B&B, have my first edition copy of the Porter book etc. For what it's worth, I'm convinced Lizzie did it. If for no other reason than any other explanation seems implausible. What fascinates me is trying to figure out how much she planned in advanced and how much was a spontaneous act. The crime appears to have elements of both. For example, why did she do it on that particular day? Did she snap at some casual household annoyance or did she intend to do it in advance?

[DJ]

Hey, RichardX--

I can't shake the feeling that Lizzie planned to do the deed on the day when the police were having their picnic, as close to noontime as possible. I think she would have done her darnedest to commit the murders by early afternoon, getting Bridget over to Sargent's come heck or high dry goods, then luring Abby upstairs.

I also can't shake the feeling that Lizzie had let it be known to Emma (and Emma to Uncle John) that Thursday was her D-Day, if poisoning couldn't be effected by Eli Bence's dime's worth of prussic acid.

Yes, I believe Lizzie was on a timeline, that the murders were premeditated before she even left on the aborted trip to the seashore to meet up with Lizzie Johnston & Co.

I think something sent Emma packing up-- and how-- out of that house. Some bit of information about Andrew's estate at which she just gave up attempting her watchfulness in the household, trying to ferret out (and demand quid-pro-quo for) "special financial dispensations" to Abby, on which Emma was obviously on high alert since the Whitehead Affair.

My belief: Andrew was going to put stocks in Abby's name (yet still control the dividends therefrom) for Abby's security, that Andrew may just have decided to put off the drawing up of a new will indefinitely, that he was planning to:

Let Lizzie and Emma slug out his intestacy in court, thereby causing them to create a public spectacle over what he perceived as their avarice.

However, he wanted to assure Abby some peace of financial mind. Thereby, the stocks.

I think Emma (and Lizzie) found out, threw up her hands, and said, "What's the point?" I wonder how soon, if ever, she planned to return to No. 92.

Lizzie, however, decided to go for broke (and a broken hatchet handle).

I believe she came back to No. 92 with the principal intent of dispensing with Abby. I think Uncle John was summoned down to either talk her out of it and/or to handle damage control. Hence, the open-endedness of his trip.

The second he saw that crowd outside the house (and-- oh, yes-- the lying man did see a crowd; the police were already there!) he knew that Lizzie had killed Abby.

Now, I believe he was to help "handle" Andrew in the event. However, Uncle John did not reckon on hearing the news, at the screen door, that Andrew was dead.

So, Uncle John retreats to the pear tree, to gather his wits.

(I have to wonder if he brought a bag-- and possibly a hatchet therein-- for Lizzie. He may have been in it that thick. He was NOT an innocent bystander. He lied like a rug to the police, obstructing justice left and right. It's even difficult to imagine him saying, as he did, that the police would never solve the crime. Can you imagine being at the scene of a gruesome double homicide, and telling the police that?)

Anyway, I think Monday, the Eighth of August, was some sort of "Deadline Day" for Lizzie, when some sort of large financial business favoring Abby was to be effected.

I think Lizzie gave this away in her Inquest testimony, when she said that visitors were due at the house that Monday, and Knowlton dropped a very big ball by not inquiring of such to Bridget (or Uncle John) or Lizzie herself. Just who, Lizzie? Names please. He could have caught her out in a humongous lie. And, if she were lying about that ... then, who knows? Bridget would certainly have known (for the sake of menu preparations and other special preparations) whether visitors were due that Monday.

Why wash windows on a Thursday when visitors are due Monday? Why not late Saturday or early Monday morning?

Anyway, welcome RichardX!

[snokkums]

I think Emma went packing and visiting because she had an idea that Lizzie would do something "off the wall", call a womans intuition or something, but I think she knew. I also think kin her own way, she was putting the idea into Lizzies had. The reason I think this is because Lizzie never knew her mother, only what Emma told her, and I don't think Emma was to wild about Abby. She passed that feeling onto Lizzie. Lizzie was just silly enough to do something, Emma just thought about it.

I think Uncle John knew something was going down, so he got out of the house too, and he remember exactly where he was at and the street car he took, too. Along with the streetcar driver and his badge.

[DJ]

Yes, Snokkums, Emma and Uncle John knew more than they ever let on.

One of the biggest mysteries of this case is just how much they knew, and when. And how much they assisted Lizzie. Because, at the very least, they obstructed justice after the murders.

Lizzie was such an impulsive revealer of her feelings and intentions, that I cannot believe she didn't at least tell Emma something along the lines of, "I plan to kill Mrs. Borden before that [whatever drove her to the edge] happens."

Emma probably did nothing to discourage her, and her leaving-- at the very least-- helped accommodate Lizzie and gave Emma her alibi (although several authors believe she still sneaked back and did it-- not I, though).

Then Emma probably contacted her "very dear Uncle" to get himself down to FR, to at least help shield Lizzie from the consequences (so, he went about misleading the police, "You'll never solve this case," "The cellar door was open," blah, blah, blah-- "Here's a bag of hatchets.").

Now, here's what I think-- Lizzie's expressed target was probably Mrs. B. I think she decided to do AJB in after she did Mrs. B.

Yes, Lizzie was an impulsive gabber. With the dressmaker. With Alice Russell. With her Grand Tour shipboard roomie. And, the witness statements show that she was blabbing to at least one old friend in New Bedford, before she returned to FR, that she believed she was probably going to be cut out of her Father's will.

That goes to:

State of Mind.

[snokkums]

I ithink that Emma and Uncle John knew that Lizzie was going to do something off the wall so they decided to "get out of dodge". I don't think they knew what she was going to do. I think they might have assited her after the fact. And tried to cover up some stuff, so it would look like she was innocent, or had no knowledge of the crime.

[RichardX]

It's possible Emma and others might have suspected that Lizzie was capable of such an act without actually knowing that she was going to do it on that date. Lizzie herself may not have known. Like the dreaded OJ case, it's hard to say why the murderer would have picked that particular time to commit the crime when there may have been other more suitable occasions. There had to be days when Lizzie was alone with Abby in the house that would have been better suited to killing her. The presence of Maggie and lurking Uncle John seems to be the greatest evidence of a spontaneous event. Lizzie could not have ensured that Maggie didn't hear a cry or find Abby. Also, she would have had limited time to dispatch of Andrew before Uncle John returned. It just seems difficult to conclude there was a plan relating to that second murder under those circumstances. At the same time, Lizzie's coolness, attempt to buy poison, and ability to hide any evidence are signs of careful thought. Maybe there are elements of both. Abby said or did something that set Lizzie off. She picks up the hatchet - dispatches Abby - broods for a while perhaps blaming Andrew for putting her in that situation. She comes upon Andrew on the couch with no one around and whacks him.

[DJ]

I'll go back to mentioning Lizzie's state of mind, as evidenced by her being so wrought up over *something* that she was unable to make it all the way to Marion to join her friends for a jolly seaside occasion.

No, she makes it as far as New Bedford. Flops in a rooming house. And does what, exactly? Why is she there?

Then, instead of going on to the beach for-- again-- a fun time with her friends, she returns to No. 92!

Now, why? Wouldn't one think she would enjoy some R&R away from that "depends on your definition of 'cordial'" household?

She tells Knowlton that she was to take the Sunday School roll.

Now, she could have easily deputzied someone to do that.

Or, if she felt she had to be there, she could have gone to the beach for a few days and returned to FR on Saturday.

Methinks Lizzie was troubled by something, something related to No. 92. Otherwise, why didn't she continue on her vacation? She jumps right back in the frying pan, as it were.

Remember, Emma had pretty well packed everything. Sounds like she was planning to be away for awhile. Why? It would seem she was upset about something, too.

Again, why is Lizzie rambling to one of her old friends, whom she visits in New Bedford, about fears of being cut out of The Will?

Seems that that was weighing heavily on her mind. It seems a most inappropriate subject for conversation. It would be considered such now, but even moreso in an era of Victorian propriety. Such things were simply not discussed outside of one's immediate family, if at that.

[DJ]

Apologies for the double post, but this is on another track:

Lizzie simply didn't have that many opportunities when Andrew and Bridget were off, and she was alone with Mrs. Borden--
or had Mrs. Borden cornered and out-of-household-traffic in the guest room.

In other words, having Bridget outside with a lengthy chore, Mr. B downtown at the banks and barber, and Abby at Ground Zero, as it were, was--

About as Good as It Was Going to Get, as far as opportunities.

Mr. B's "away time" was limited, since he conducted so much business in the house, sans an office even in his own building.

So, he was hanging around a good bit. Bridget did have what? Sunday and an afternoon off?

However, she LIVED on the premises. Just because she had a day off doesn't mean that she would be away for the whole day.

As for Abby-- she went to market some, visited some, and probably spent as much time away from Lizzie and Emma as possible. Her bedroom was probably quite the retreat.

Having Abby alone and in the Guest Room, for Lizzie, was like having a gazelle out in the open, for a cheetah.

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I still think Lizzie pressed her Father out of the house to mail the letter to Emma, that a.m. I think otherwise, he would have stayed, feeling as he did. I think the murders were premeditated, and things coalesced in favor of Miss Lizzie's plan that a.m.

[Allen]

I'm not sure how much lying we can actually point out that Uncle John did. Things can be surmised out of opinion, but his entire alibi was backed up by witnesses. I don't believe Uncle John knew anything ahead of time except he was to come over and help Andrew with some business matters, at his own discretion. I believe he just happened to show up at the wrong time. Uncle John was in the habit of showing up for unannounced visits. Testimony shows this was his pattern. Just a few weeks before he'd come down to spend the day and take Emma and a niece who accompanied him to Fall River on a buggy ride. It can be seen by studying the available testimony and information it was his custom to go visiting around to different friends and relatives whenever he was in town. The man never in his life even lived on his own. He always lived with friends, relatives, and boarders. I think he enjoyed the company. He might have been a lonely bachelor seeing as he never married. Even at his death he still had boarders living with him. I have never seen anything suspicious about Uncle John showing up that day just as he had on days before that, on short notice, and only for over night. He also had the letter from Andrew to verify his reason for being there. He was a free agent with no wife or children to answer to. He was also very well off and could afford to just pick up and take a trip whenever the desire arose. He seemed to me from reading the information available to have also been a little restless, and had a tendency to travel. He first moved to Michigan, then Illinois, then Iowa and always resided with other people.

Rebello page 70:

"Thoughout his life Morse traveled east during the summer and winter months visiting Fall River; New Bedford; Warren; Rhode Island; and Boston. He maintained a small boat in New Bedford, and he visited friends and relatives."

I do believe Emma left the house due to the building frustrations at home. I think she wanted a vacation away from all that just to enjoy the summer in peace. I don't think she knew just how serious the situation had become for Lizzie though.

I do believe that Lizzie had thought of different ways to dispense of her parents, and had been thinking about it for quite some time. A druggist claims she came into his shop at one point prior to the murders and bought some chloroform. I've always wondered what she was planning to do with it. I think she had thought long and hard about possible methods and means for disposing of evidence. I think over the years she maybe have devised several plans that never came to be realized. But something that happened that week set her off and got her finally into taking some action. She tried poisoning and that didn't work out. Abby was afraid that someone was poisoning her and had visited Dr. Bowen with her concerns. Lizzie knew that too many more possibly failed attempts would definitely bring about suspicion, and Abby may have started sharing her fears of being poisoned to those closest to her. So Lizzie picked a more direct means of murder that would definitely bring about the desired results. I also believe that Andrew had always been an intended target. Taking out just Abby would not have insured anything. Andrew could have left his money to whomever he pleased and left Lizzie nothing. Especially if he suspected her of murder. It's my opinion the daylight robbery was committed by Lizzie to set a precedent that an unseen assailant could enter the house and commit a crime and get away with it.

[Yooper]

Hello Richard, welcome to the forum!
There may have been something going on which prompted the separate visits by Lizzie and Emma just before the murders. This came fairly soon after Andrew bought back the Ferry Street house from his daughters. The purchase of a half interest in the Whitehead residence by Andrew in Abby's name for her sister's benefit is a major turning point. Andrew had given Lizzie and Emma the Ferry Street residence in an attempt to console them for their perceived slight. Lizzie and Emma had difficulty in maintaining the house as a profitable venture and Andrew bought it from them. I can imagine something might well have been said about it at that time which could have set the wheels in motion.

[DJ]

Yes, the Whitehead Affair was the proverbial "line drawn in the sand"--

I'm afraid the Big Bridge (to jumble metaphors) Burned was the Daylight Robbery.
I believe Andrew suspected Lizzie, and
that he thought Emma was covering, or, as we're wont to say in This Forum,
"Knew more than she was telling."

Then, that late spring before the murders:

Bye, bye horsie.
Bye, bye birdies.

Then, "We want to sell Ferry Street."

I bet Andrew had had it by then, and was plotting the coup de grace, whatever it was that sent the girls running.

It was most out of character for them both to take off SIMULTANEOUSLY.

What if Andrew did something special for Abby in their absence?

At that point, I would wager that Andrew was planning something special indeed for Abby, something for which Lizzie and Emma realized-- or were told-- there would be no "quid pro quo" for them.

So, Emma takes off, to return whenever. It no longer matters that she sticks around to eavesdrop and otherwise keep tabs. Andrew's through playing "fair is fair." Goneril and Regan-- or, rather, Lizzie and Emma-- have ticked him off for the last time.

So, Lizzie decides to nip the problem in the bud.