Carriage out front

[Angel]

Has anyone read how long the parked carriage out front of the house stayed there? And what time was it there?

[mbhenty]

Quiet on here, huh Angel

Must be the economy Everyone's out looking for work

Which carriage, wagon, buggy are you talking about

Are we talking about the one outside the Borden House on the day of the crime?

[Angel]

Yes.

[diana]

Hostler Mark Chase's testimony regarding a carriage in front of the Borden house starts on page 1360 Volume 2 of the trial transcript -- however, whether the following is useful or not probably depends on which reference to a carriage prompted your question.

Q. Now, about 11 o'clock did you see any carriage or person in the immediate vicinity of the Andrew J. Borden house on Second street?
A. I did, sir.
Q. Tell us what it was or who it was.
A. I can't tell you who it was.
Q. Well, sir, where was it?
A. It was standing right by a tree right front of Mr. Borden's fence.
Q. What was it?
A. And open buggy, box buggy. It was a high top seat, high back.
Q. Anybody in it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What?
A. A man with a brown hat and black coat. He was back to me.
Q. Do you know who he was?
A. I can't tell. . . .

. . . Q. Do you know when he went away?
A. No, sir, I couldn't tell. (Trial 1361)


Q. When was your attention first directed to this team?
A. It was directed to it five or ten minutes to eleven.
Q. What?
A. Five or ten minutes to eleven.
Q. You had not seen it before that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you been where you could have seen it before that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Whether it had been there any length of time, you don't know? (Trial, 1363)


Q. Did you see any part of his face?
A. Yes, sir, the side of his face.
Q. You do not recognize it as anybody you know?
A. No, sir.
Q. But I suppose you would not undertake to say it was not somebody you knew?
A. No, sir, I could not.
Q. It might have been someone you know, for ought you know?
A. For all I know. (Trial, 1366)

So the upshot of Chase's testimony is that he noticed the buggy at about ten to eleven -- did not know how long it had been there -- or when it left -- or whether the man in the buggy was a stranger or someone he knew.

[mbhenty]

Yes: There was actually two different accounts of a carriage outside the Borden house on the morning of the murders. Whether it was the same carriage or not, I can't say, or has anyone else, me thinks.

Chase of course was the owner of a stable across from the Kelly house. Not only that, but I believe he was a cop. I think before he had the stable. Mr. Chase claimed that the carriage was in front of the borden house around 11:00 a.m.

But, there was also the sighting by Delia Manley, Alice Russell's sister in law. If you remember, Manley was walking by the house with her sister from Tiverton when they spotted a wagon outside the Borden house. But this was around 10 a.m. or a little before. Her testimony was about the fellow that was hanging around the Borden house. She saw the man when she was inspecting some lilies on the back of the carriage.

Now whether it was the same wagon (carriage) I don't think the question has ever been asked.

Thus, there were two accounts of carriages Angel. One around 10 and another around 11 a.m.

[mbhenty]

Yes: And my post above begs a trivia-question. Ready>?

Delia Manley testified that she was Alice Russell's sister in law.

We know that Manley was an old family name......when we are talking about Alice Russell.

But, her name was Russell. How could Delia be her "sister in law" if her name was Manley?

[patsy]

Was she Alice's sister in law or a sister in law of Alice's mother who was a Manley? Someone had a chart here somewhere with relationships.

[patsy]

Found this thread started by nbcatlover showing some relationships.

viewtopic.php?t=4225

[diana]

Delia Manley testified she was the sister-in-law of Mrs. Russell (Alice's mother). (Trial, 1378) This dovetails with the Knowlton Glossary which states she married Seabury T. Manley in 1869 and was an aunt by marriage to Alice Russell.

Also, at the Preliminary Hearing, Mrs. Manley testified that she knew one of the people in the carriage:
"Q. When you went by, who was with you?
A. A lady named Mrs. Hart was with me.
Q. Who else?
A. The gentleman and lady in the carriage that I was talking with.
Q. Who were they?
A. The gentleman was Mr. Manley; the lady, I do not know." (Prelim. 461)

So, as this carriage contained a man and woman and the one Mark Chase saw about an hour later had only one man in it, it seems unlikely we're talking about the same carriage.

[mbhenty]

Ahh Yes:

Thanks for clearing that up for me Diana. I thought I was being cleaver with my little trivia question, but instead I was just being wrong.

I thought that Delia misspoke in her testimony, when she said that Alice Russell was her sister in law. So, I went to the trial minutes to look it up. Thus, she said "Mrs Russell," not Alice Russell.

So, Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[diana]

No problem. I was really only able to answer that because I spent some time awhile ago looking into Delia M. as I felt her testimony was a little contradictory. It wasn’t – it’s just the reticence she shows when she identifies who was with her on the day.

For example Delia identifies her companion as “a lady named Mrs. Hart” and says the man in the cart “was Mr. Manley”.

But then Sarah Hart gets on the stand and testifies she's sister-in-law to Delia, sister-in-law to Alice Russell’s mother, and the man in the carriage with the pond lilies is her nephew Ezra Manley. (I don’t know for sure but I’m guessing Sarah is Delia's husband’s sister and another Manley brother is the parent of Ezra. This would explain why Sarah answers Knowlton with the cryptic phrase: "her husband" when he asks if Delia is also related to the man in the carriage.)

So Sarah calls Delia her "sister" and her "sister-in-law"-- whereas Delia simply refers to Sarah as Mrs. Hart of Tiverton. And, while Sarah is fine claiming Ezra as kin, Delia doesn’t see the need to identify her nephew any further than as ‘a young fellow in a buggy with pond lilies’. I kind of admire Delia’s discretion. (Sources: Preliminary Hearing and Trial testimonies of Sarah R. Hart and Delia S. Manley)

By the way, it looks as though Mark Chase didn’t raise the issue of the carriage in front of the house in his initial interview with the police. Harrington and Doherty interviewed him (dated Sept. 25, 1892) and reported: “Mark Chase. “Was around the Express Company’s stable, opposite the Borden house all forenoon. was back and forth from the stable to V. Wade’s store several times between 10.30 and 11.15. Saw nothing suspicious.” (Witness Statements, p. 19)