Pre-meditated or Spur of the Moment?

[Smudgeman]

How many of you think Lizzie planned the murders in advance or snapped that day? I tend to believe she had been thinking about ways to do it with Prussic acid, poisoning, etc.. Did she know the cops would not be around that day? Did she have the perfect opportunity, or did Abby say something to her that morning that made her furious? She certainly was thinking about it, because she planted the seed with Alice Russell the previous night . What do you think?

[DJ]

People can argue "L'Affaire Prussic Acid," but Lizzie's visit and statements to Alice Russell do indicate premeditation, as you say.

Indeed, it's my belief that Emma and Uncle John knew Lizzie was planning to murder Abby, and that JVM was there to run interference between his brother-in-law and blood-niece in the aftermath, to bring AJB under control if he became enraged with Lizzie.

However, I believe Lizzie went for broke that a.m. and decided to eliminate Andrew as well. That, I believe, is the explanation for JVM's bizarre behavior upon returning to No. 92 the a.m. of the 4th, why he left the side door, which was already guarded, to hang at the pear tree while he gathered his thoughts at the change of plans.

Therefore, to answer the question: I believe Abby's death was premeditated. I think Lizzie decided to kill Andrew after she murdered Abby that morning, probably realizing she already had everything to lose, so why not go for everything?

[snokkums]

I think it was alittle bit of both. I think she was evenuatually was going to kill her parents. But, on the day of August the 4th shejust had enough.

[Allen]

I agree that it was a little bit of both. I think she thought of different modes of murder for a very long time. She probably had plans laid out for where she could possibly hide a weapon, different ways to keep herself from becoming blood spattered, or how she could slip poison into their meals undetected. She could take note of their habits an schedules. I think she mulled these things over so much that when it came down to actually doing the deed she could almost run on autopilot. "Ok, here's where I put the weapon." The only thing is that even with all that preplanning, doing it spur of the moment still left loose ends. She hadn't planned the actual day, nor did she have a very feasible alibi planned out, and other things that arise from not planning it down to the minute. I think something sped up her planning and put it into actual action that week. I think she first tried the poison, and that didn't work so she killed them with her bare hands. I think she realized after Abby started telling people her suspicions of being poisoned, that the next method she used had to mean certain death.

[Smudgeman]

I also think she was incredibly lucky not to get caught!

[spidis]

I've often wondered if Lizzie planted the idea in Abby's head that morning that the windows needed washing in order to get Bridget outdoors. From what I've read, Abby and Bridget really liked each other. When Bridget tried to leave employment with the Bordens at one point (probably due to the tension and turmoil in that house), Abby increased her wages in order to get her to stay. In light of all this and the fact that nobody in the house had felt well for the past couple of days, I find it hard to believe that Abby would be so inconsiderate as to send Bridget outdoors in that heat to wash windows when she wasn't feeling 100%. I wonder if Lizzie set in that morning that the windows were dirty and needed washing and Abby, in an attempt to appease her and shut her up, ordered Bridget outdoors to clean the windows. Lizzie would have known that this would give her the house to herself for a certain amount of time. Anyway, it's something to think about.

[DJ]

I think it was JVM who mentioned dirty windows to Abby, if anyone did-- across all his testimony, he insists that Abby gave the order to Bridget during breakfast.

However, Bridget is clear that the order to window-wash wasn't given until after she had finished washing the breakfast dishes.

In any event, one could theorize that it was JVM who was wrought up over dirty windows during breakfast, or:

He's perjuring himself in Lizzie's favor, so no one will conclude what you have, Spidis, which is that Lizzie gave the order directly to Bridget to get her out of the house.

It's either/or, and either JVM or Bridget is lying. I tend to believe Bridget. I don't think Abby would have interrupted the meal to discuss window-washing with Bridget, who was in the kitchen unless summoned. It wasn't as if Bridget were going to grab her scrub-pole and rush right out of the house, for she had other chores to complete first.

[RichardX]

I think there are elements of both. The level of violence and overkill are indicative of someone who has snapped. It was also a risky undertaking if she intended to kill both Andrew and Abby. She didn't have control over the movements of the maid, her uncle or Andrew. Any combination of events outside her control could have resulted in the discovery of Abby before she had a chance to kill Andrew. So there are aspects of Andrew's murder that simply couldn't be planned in advance.

The poisoning scenario and discussion with Alice are indicative of someone contemplating the act beforehand. What's interesting is if she did try to poison them she is lucky it didn't work. There would have been a witness testifying that she attempted to buy prussic acid. Jurors at that time would be much more likely to accept the proposition that a woman used poison to commit murder than an axe. And it would be suspicious if she herself had not been poisoned. Likely a conviction under that scenario.

[Smudgeman]

I agree it was a little of both. Abby was defintely the target, and Andrew was an afterthought. I think Lizzie knew she had the perfect opportunity when she appeared at the back screen door to ask Bridget if she was going to wash the windows. If I remember correctly, Bridget states Lizzie appeared at the back screen door at 9:30am, Bridget then did not come back into the house to do the inside Sitting Room windows until 10:20am, this gives Lizzie plenty of time to dispose of Abby and prepare for Father's return home. I think she winged it from there. I think window washing was once a month, and usually on Thursdays, Lizzie would have known this pattern. I think Lizzie needed confirmation that Bridget was starting on the outside windows first so she knew she would be outside and out of sight.

[twinsrwe]

If Lizzie was the sole killer, which I believe she was, then I think she planned both of the murders in advance. Her visit with Alice Russell, Wednesday evening, does suggest premeditation.

I think Lizzie knew the police department would not be around that morning, and that her father would be out of the house, regardless of whether or not he was sick. I don’t believe there was ever a note – I think Lizzie made up the note as a cover for Abby’s absence. I think Lizzie knew she had a golden opportunity handed to her for the time required to kill Abby and clean up, when Bridget chose to wash the windows on the outside first. When it came to providing herself with the time it would take to kill Andrew and clean up, Lizzie suggested to Bridget that she take advantage of a cotton dress goods sale at Sargent’s store. (It is my understanding that this suggestion was given to Bridget in the dining room as she was finishing up the windows.) Although Bridget declined to take advantage of the sale, she came through for Lizzie by choosing to rest awhile before having to prepare the next meal.

Given the number of blows Abby received indicates rage/hatred; I think Abby was the primary target. I can't imagine an intruder being angry enough at Abby to strike her repeatedly when one or two blows would have accomplish the deed. Given the number of blows Andrew received suggest rage – again, I believe an intruder would have given Andrew a couple of blows to get the job done. The number of blows both victim’s received was, without a doubt, overkill, by someone who was full of rage/anger.

[snokkums]

I thiknk she had planned on killing the parents for along time, she just cracked on the 4th of August. I think the day was the spur of the moment. I mean I think she planned the murders, but didn't have a day in mind. But on the 4th, she just had enough.

[stargazer]

I always wonder if words were exchanged between Abby and Lizzie that morning. Andrew had killed her pigeons, there was the "house to Abbys relatives" situation in the works, and Lizzie probably figured that Abby and Andrew could poke along another 10 years in that house. What a fun time that would be year after year ! not. There are times that I suspect Bridget, but she doesn't have the face for it. Lizzies face looks angry, and a tad "out there" albeit a good face as faces go. We just don't know what she was really like. Sometimes I cut her some slack, and the animal kindness is a big deal to me, plus she was good to many people. At other times, I see her as a psychopath, but just for a few seconds. We just don't know !

[mbhenty]

Yes, Stargazer:

Everything you say may hold validity.

True, we just don't know.

But, please allow me to add.......there is no proof that they were Lizzie's pigeons and they were probably not.

Writer have written extensively and erroneously about "LIzzie's pigeons," and how devastated Lizzie became when her father killed the pigeons.

Not true.

The only proof we have of the pigeons being killed was at the inquest testimony Lizzie gave. If you read it you will discover that she was very "as-a-matter-of-fact about her description of the dead pigeons. She displays no emotion, expresses no opinion, and gives no disapproval, or does she give mention to it being wrong, sad, or anything. She is just blaugh about her testimony on the pigeons.

Thus, all these writers who report to us, in their shinny dust jacketed books, about "Lizzie's Pigeons," and how she loved them, is just not true, given the fact that there is no proof they were, again, "Lizzie's Pigeons.

Add to the 1975 movie and everyone thinks that Andrew Borden killed "her" pigeons out of spite.

[snokkums]

I, too, think that Abby was the target, and Andrew was an after thought. I think she justified in her mind, the killing of Andrew by thinking that he just won't "upgrade" the house, won't spend money on the finer things in life. YOu know, like moving to "the hill", where all the rich folks are.

[Yooper]

I expect Lizzie had been planning to do away with Abby for some time. Once that was done, from Lizzie's perspective, it made sense to kill Andrew if at all possible. Lizzie had attempted to purchase prussic acid prior to the murders, apparently without good reason for legitimate use. I have no doubt that this took place; why would Eli Bence risk his reputation on a false accusation when the political and social climate seemed to dictate that he should avoid incriminating a woman for first degree murder? The testimony was thrown out incorrectly because it speaks to an intent to commit murder. Lizzie's conversation with Alice Russell the evening before the murders seems oddly prophetic; yet another coincidence? Lizzie's return to Fall River that week allowed for Emma to be away, with Lizzie at home. Morse's visit was unexpected, but it might provide a suspect. Bridget was outdoors washing windows and Abby was as far out of earshot as she could be, in addition to being in the last room where anyone would innocently stumble across her. If it was ever gonna happen, it was now! The rest was blind luck, Andrew laying down for a nap and Bridget napping upstairs while Morse remained away from the house. At that point, why not? It would be far more reasonable for Andrew to have been the target of an intruder than Abby.

I think Lizzie's actions in the days shortly before the murders speak to premeditation, and the turmoil over the Whitehead house suggests it may have been on her mind long before that. Abby had visited Dr. Bowen expressing a fear that they were being poisoned the day before the murders. This might have been the trigger, followed by Lizzie's conversation with Alice; support for the contention that someone intended to harm the Bordens. Everything she said the day of the murders seems to have been an attempt to implicate an unknown intruder, people arguing with Andrew, her knowledge that it couldn't be anyone who worked for her father, and her corroboration of Bridget's story about napping upstairs.

[snokkums]

What I am wondering is this. If it was necessary to kill Andrew so not to leave a living witness, why not kill Bridget too? She would be able to testify against Lizzie. Or maybe she was paid off by Lizzie to keep her mouth shut? Just speculation on my point.

[RichardX]

What I am wondering is this. If it was necessary to kill Andrew so not to leave a living witness, why not kill Bridget too? She would be able to testify against Lizzie. Or maybe she was paid off by Lizzie to keep her mouth shut? Just speculation on my point.

If Andrew had witnessed or even suspected anything was going on that day, I doubt he decides to take a little nap. But that does raise the point as to whether he was actually lying down at the time. His position always looked a bit peculiar to me with his feet still on the floor. As though he had been siting and fell over sideways when he was struck. He doesn't strike me as the type to a take a midday nap on the couch. I really don't know. The whole case is strange but I guess that is why we are still discussing it. I'm a firm believer that Lizzie did it, but she certainly behaved oddly in many respects. The first thing I would have expected her to do is cast doubt on others like Bridget. But she doesn't.