This and That

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:49 pm

Very cool stuff! It looks like Emma contributed to the Animal rescue league more than anyone. As an animal lover myself, I wonder if the girls longed for a cat or a dog when they lived with Andrew, and he said "No"! I can somehow believe that.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:30 pm

That is a cool pic of Nance. Do you know who the ladies are that she is having tea with? I have never heard of them before, curious.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:12 pm

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:17 pm

Tolo, huh? Interesting...just one name? She looks polynesian; I wonder where she was from.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:52 pm

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:05 pm

Thank you very much, Allen, for this interesting post!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:02 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:03 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:05 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:06 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:08 pm

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:03 pm

Thanks again for the photos of Nance and Tolo, :)

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:18 am

Allen, thanks SO much for this...I love reading this kind of stuff. I collect old cookbooks, and many of them have chapters addressing the care of the sick. Fascinating stuff...turns out they were right! Sunlight IS good for you, and DOES promote good health...and I found the chapter advising "subnitrate of bismuth" interesting...to this day, bismuth is the main ingredient in Pepto Bismol.

The date of this publication being 1892 meant that use of antibiotics would not be a factor in treatment for another 43 years. The first ones, sulphur compounds, weren't used to treat infection until 1935. (http://www.health24.com/Medical/Meds-an ... d-20120721

I live in a rural area...a friend of mine is, what many would call "an old hippie"...she and her family live in a house built in the 1890's, keep many animals, grow all their own food, and never, ever, EVER see doctors or take traditional medicine. They have so many medicinal herbs, barks, roots, etc that it boggles my mind. None of them have ever taken commercially prepared antibiotics, and they are all healthy and strong (3 sons, all in their 20's). They also do not believe in vaccinations. (On this point we occasionally get into a debate.)

Her oldest son recently suffered a spider bite that got badly infected. It actually turned BLACK and if it had been me, would have sent me running to the doctor. But nope, she gave him some sort of leaves, crushed up with a mortar and pestle, and rubbed on the affected area. It cleared up in 2 days, and is almost completely gone.

I wonder what Lizzie's biological mother actually died of. "Uterine Congestion" is what I've read, and I have no idea what that means or how they arrived at that manner of death.

On another side note, a study was just published that showed that persons (men where the only ones in this particular study, but I think it could be applied to women) who never ate breakfast have an increased risk of heart disease. I find that interesting, in that Lizzie readily volunteered (during her inquest testimony) that she "never ate any breakfast." Her death was later attributed, in part, to heart disease. I actually find it incredible that she would have allowed herself to have surgery in the 1920's...surgery is risky enough NOW. Imagine how many poor outcomes there must have been 90 years ago.

I'd like to see her medical records...they should be available to the public. HIPPA rules do not apply after ones' death. (I've worked in health insurance for over a decade). Does anyone know the name of her personal physician at the time of her demise?

Allen, thanks again for scanning and posting these pages. If you feel like showing us any more of them, I'd love to see how they treated the subjects of pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding...but only if you feel like it!

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:30 am

Is there any indication that Lizzie ever underwent any sort of psychiatric examination?

Oh I would love to see those initial notes that her attorney (Robinson) made upon his first few visits to her in jail. Did the insanity plea exist at that time? Could Lizzie have pled "not guilty due to mental disease or defect?" Or would that have meant she would be remanded to an insane asylum, and not able to spend her vast inheritance...just thinking (typing) out loud here.

She was certainly neurotic (stealing things) and most definitely exhibited paranoid behavior after her acquittal. She craved the approval of others, it would seem, but not so much, that she didn't pack up and move someplace where no one had heard of her, and wouldn't pre-judge her.

Going back to the paranoia, she certainly displayed signs of it before the murders...when she told Miss Russell she feared someone was going to burn down the house. Is it paranoia if the fear is based on something real?

So another question: had anyone ever tried before to harm or hurt Andrew Borden? How about threats? Had anyone ever threatened his life or health, due to his lack of charity, and unwillingness to have any pity or empathy for, say, his tenants?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:25 pm

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:44 am

Wow! Thanks, Allen. I enjoyed reading that. So Lizzie's mother had a "bad disposition." and Lizzie's temperament was "ugly." To me this can mean only one thing; public displays of behavior that would have been considered unacceptable. And yet, I know of no examples. Did Lizzie's ever berate a shopkeeper? Yell at someone in church? Storm out of a meeting?

It makes it easier for me to feature Lizzie losing her temper and having a psychotic rage attack or episode that apparently lasted a few hours. How she could come down from such a "high" to act calmly in front of friends, and the police, though...? Guess it's myseteries like that that still have us discussing this case over a hundred years later...thanks again!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:05 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:40 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:27 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:18 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:34 pm

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:39 am

Thanks for scanning these documents, Allen. Fascinating stuff! I'm so glad I was born in the 20th century...to be a woman entailed so much oppression it seems. We were good for being wives and mothers; if we lost our lives in the duties of either, it was "noble." Oh, and I'm very petite...wonder if I would have been considered "feeble"?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:26 am

NancyDrew wrote:Wow! Thanks, Allen. I enjoyed reading that. So Lizzie's mother had a "bad disposition." and Lizzie's temperament was "ugly." To me this can mean only one thing; public displays of behavior that would have been considered unacceptable. And yet, I know of no examples. Did Lizzie's ever berate a shopkeeper? Yell at someone in church? Storm out of a meeting?

It makes it easier for me to feature Lizzie losing her temper and having a psychotic rage attack or episode that apparently lasted a few hours. How she could come down from such a "high" to act calmly in front of friends, and the police, though...? Guess it's myseteries like that that still have us discussing this case over a hundred years later...thanks again!

I could find no specific incident other than the one cited below in the Pearson-Knowlton letters. Not much at all in the books which I find odd.

From "The Cases That Haunt Us" by Douglas &, page 109:

"Lizzie was willful and stubborn and liked to be noticed, which would almost surely have put her into conflict with her father. At the inquest she often displayed a belligerent temper. She dropped out of school in the tenth grade, was subject to black moods, and indulged in numerous remedies to deal with them. "

But this from the Fall River Herald in an interview with George Brigham dated Aug 20, 1892:

"And as to insanity?"
"There has never been a trace of it about her. She was a girl of very even temper. She never became excited. She had ideas, spoke them quietly and clearly. She could not be insane for the instant of committing the murder, and then return to her own normal self instantly - and after each of the two murders, for I think Mrs. Borden was murdered first, as do the others"

There was a series of correspondence between Pearson and Knowlton's son, Frank. In a letter dated Feb. 6, 1925, Knowlton writes:

"One of my neighbors, a lady, tells me that shortly after reading your book, and being very much interested in it, she had a rather thrilling experience. She went into a rather expensive but small tailor shop run by a humble Hebrew and while waiting for her fitting was attracted by a terrible dressing down which some woman was giving to the tailor. The language was scathing and caustic and aroused the admiration of my friend, who asked the tailor when the lady left who the customer was. He told her it was Miss Lizzie Borden of Fall River."

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:27 am

Yes, thank you Allen for the articles. I enjoy your research.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:29 am

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:35 am

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:56 pm

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:16 pm

I just got back from vacation in Biloxi, Mississippi, and I visited houses from the 1840's. Some of the hallways are small and narrow, but you can hear what is going on in ther other rooms. Just a thought.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:02 pm

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:48 am

The style and syntax used in Victorian texts always intrigues me. Never a paucity of verbiage there. Always seems as if they take 100 words when 20 would do. I wonder why that is... The passages on a woman's duty to marriage are particularly wordy; it almost seems as if the author is a tad defensive in his posture (it has to be a "him" that wrote it, I'm sure.)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:59 am

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:52 am

Thanks for posting that, Allen. I admit to not understanding what he said in the 2nd part...is he saying that the prussic acid evidence (Eli Bence) should have been included, or that he agrees that it was proper to exclude it?

See, this is one of the reasons I never went to law school...I cannot read legal language..it makes me dizzy!

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:33 pm

So he caught Lizzie in a lie, because he says "Quote from Allen's post"

"Is not an article of commerical use, that it is not used for the purpose of cleaning capes, seal skin capes, or capes of any other sort, and has no adaptability to such use. "

I always have wondered, did Lizzie even own a seal skin cape? Animal rights groups would be all over that in today's society. :)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:09 am

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:24 pm

Would Lizzie buy Prussic Acid so close to home knowing that if she poisoned her parents with it, and if they found out they died of Cyanide poisoning that it would come out that she had bought it? I would have gone to Maine or Connecticut somewhere to get it...not so close to home!!!!

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:54 pm

It may be that Lizzie was unaware that the substance was as tightly controlled as it was. Still, any poison bought close to home would raise suspicions. Lizzie had Abby's visit to Dr. Bowen to encourage her, Abby's fear of being poisoned.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:08 am

Thanks for the clarification, Allen.

I think Lizzie DID try to buy cyanide. I think she intended to use it to poison her step mother...she was already laying the groundwork..telling Alice Russell she feared the milk was poisoned. It was a huge mistake not to allow that bit of testimony to be entered into the trial.

PossumPie: I agree, it was an irrational and poorly thought out plan. As I've stated before, I think Lizzie was an immature and unbalanced individual. And for the luck element, again, she was a recipient of it, as Eli Bence and his two co-workers testimonies were never read by the jury.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:59 pm

I agree, there were three witnesses to the fact that Lizzie tried to buy cyanide, and since there is no commercial use and only very limited pharmaceutical use for the substance, it indicates she was predisposed to murder. Abby had gone to see Bowen with the fear of being poisoned and that seemed to plant the seed. Lizzie tried to buy cyanide later that day and Lizzie was aware of Abby's fear of poisoning, according to the discussion with Alice Russell that evening. It all points one way! If they wanted to avoid a conviction, they had to exclude it.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:12 am

Hi Yooper! Do you know why Allen deleted all the documents she had scanned into this thread?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:18 am

I don't know why the documents were deleted, you might try sending her a PM.