Lizzie’s Chinese connection

[Franz]

Before the murders occurred Lizzie had been teaching English to some Chinese immigrants, and it was said she was a good teacher. Being Chinese myself, I am curious to know if her Chinese students left any testimony, of any kind…

[mbhenty]

Yes: Franz

There is very little known about Lizzie Borden and her Chinese class. The only real knowledge we can acquire with any certainty is the testimony given by Mrs Marianna Holmes, one of Lizzie Borden's best friends and staunch supporters who testified in court that Lizzie taught Sunday school. The way she put it was that she taught Bible class at church with Lizzie and that Lizzie "taught in the Chinese department." Her words at trail.

There is very, very little known about the Chinese in Fall River and the connection to Lizzie Borden. One must be very careful where they get their information.

After studying the Borden case for over 30 years I have come across very little, and most are from newspaper accounts and gossip by other writers who "assume, surmise, conjure up and just plain lie.

For instance: Let us take Victoria Lincoln, Fall River's sweetheart. About Lizzie and the Chinese she says:

But one task at Central she did not do well. Mr. Buck was also City Missionary, which in that town of Catholic labor meant that he had lean pickings. He rounded up a little Sunday-school class of Chinese laundrymen's children, and Lizzie taught it.


She makes it sound like Fall River was full of Catholics and the only non-Catholics they could find was a handful of Chinese laundrymen's children. Also the term she uses, "rounded up" like these chinese children were cattle. Nowhere else had I read that they were "Chinese laundrymen's children" Lizzie taught Chinese class. It has always been assumed that they were Chinese men. We don't know. There are no records or interviews that I have ever read about who these Chinese were, or that any spoke to, or that any Chinese person gave his story about Lizzie and her Chinese class.

But for further entertainment, Victoria Lincoln goes on to say:

But the Sunday school superintendent who spoke of Lizzie's "disproportionate excitement" when her class of Chinese laundrymen's children disregarded her avid---and rarely, rarely requited---desire for affection, for admiration, had touched on a pivotal point in her character. Everyone who knew her at all well spoke of it. Her need to be loved outstripped her ability to love




Who was this "superintendent"? Here she implies that Lizzie starves to be loved and for affection from these Chinese children and failed to get it. What child would not return love for love, affection for affection, or at the very least, fondness for affection.

Thus we must be careful what we read and where this information comes from. Victoria Lincoln gives us no sources. So most of what she say's in unreliable and can not be trusted.

Now, let us look at Frank Spiering, Victoria Lincoln's brother from a different mother and father, who wrote the famous book simply called "Lizzie."
He says:


Marianna Holmes was Lizzie's friend. She testified as to Lizzie's religious activities, one of which was her role as teacher of a Chinese class in the Sunday school. (One observer, James L. Ford, in an interview with the Providence Journal, later theorized that since the deaths were caused by a hatchet---a favorite weapon used in Chinese tong wars---that the murders might have been committed by one of Lizzie's Oriental pupils---as an act of devotion to his beloved teacher.)

He was a little more honest. Interestingly so, he mentions this James L Ford Character who started the rumor at the time that the Bordens were killed by a "Oriental", (Asian) with an axe, making the racial claim that the Chinese all ran around with axes. Talk about handing the Chinese a reputation.

One interesting note is that there were 3 Chinese laundries near 92 Second Street, including one right across the street.

So in conclusion, there is very little known about the tiny population of Chinese and Lizzie. No interviews that I have ever read. And you can't trust everything you read about Lizzie and Borden Authors.

The only, only, thing we know is what Marianna Holmes said, she taught Bible class at church with Lizzie and that Lizzie "taught in the Chinese department.

You may discover other declarations in news papers or books, but most are not worthy of the truth. Not enough was studied or known, then and now, about the Chinese and Lizzie Borden.

[Franz]

Thank you very much! All you said in the reply is very interesting!

[mbhenty]

Yes Franz, you are welcome.

When I was growing up in Fall River we lived a block away from a Chinese restaurant, called CHINA CITY. My friends and I, we were around 12 years of age, would go to China City every sunday for lunch. We were just a bunch of cocky kids. The owner was a funny guy. My friends and I use to talk about him behind his back, in Portuguese so he couldn't understand us.

One day we thought it was funny to order our meal in Chinese. Of course we knew nothing in Chinese. We just mimicked a bunch of vowels. We thought we were really funny. I remember the Chinese fellow nearly dove over the counter at us. He chased us a block up the street.

Years later I ran into an old friend and we reminisce about old times and China City.

I said to him that I remembered us speaking portuguese so the owner could not understand us.

It was then that he told me something I did not know. "Mike," he said. "That old Chinese fellow knew everything we were saying about him."

"Why would you say that?" I asked, to which he responded, "the old fellow was fluent in Portuguese. His family was from Macau."

We had a good laugh.

Here's another thing I am sure you did not know.

I'm not sure how many people on the forum are familiar with the Chow Mein Sandwich.

It was invented in Fall River.

Soon it spread to many New England towns. A Chow Mein Sandwich was chow mein noodles with shrimp, chicken, etc., over a soft hamburger bun. They were real messy, but very, very good. When I was a child a large chow mein sandwich was 15 cents plain and 25 cents with meat. I grew up thinking everyone was familiar with the Chinese Chow Mein Sandwich. As an adult I soon discovered that no one out of state knew what it was. Below is some information about the Chow mein sandwich.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chow_mein_sandwich

The three most famous Chinese restaurants in Fall River when I was growing up and which we frequented often, was China City, Mark You, Mee Sum and the famous China Royal.

Below is the famous Mark You Restaurant and it's famous Dragon sign. Mark you is still in business. The same family ran it for something like 50 years. Then it went out of business and it closed for a couple of years. Someone purchased the sign and it disappeared not to long ago. I remember it being up there for over 50 years. Now different people own the place.

[mbhenty]

Mark You Restaurant opens again.

http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x4255986 ... resh-ideas

[Allen]

One of these newspaper accounts about Lizzie teaching Sunday school is on page 12 of Lizzie Borden Past and Present by Leonard Rebello. It was included in a piece by the Boston Daily Globe that came out August 7, 1892 on page 6. It is called "Lizzie Borden: Her School and Later Life - Noble Woman, Though Retiring." The paper allegedly interviewed friends, family, and teachers to get an idea of what our Miss Lizzie was like. One of the people interviewed was Mrs. Charles J. Holmes.

"She was given a class of rough, untutored boys and labored with them until her courage was almost gone and then she was given some girls to teach. Also connected with the church is a Chinese school and Miss Lizzie took one of the men to instruct. She had good success and her pupil has since left Fall River."

[PossumPie]

While interesting, I hope the theme of this thread isn't a "Chinese connection" to the murders simply b/c of their ethnicity...that was what often happened in the late 1800's - first suspicion of a crime fell on anyone not born in the U.S. I haven't run across any suspicion thrown to the Chinese during the investigation.

[Allen]

I don't see that anything has been said about that. I see a curiosity for Lizzie teaching Chinese students.

[Franz]

Hey mbhenty! I had a good laugh, too. You are so kind for sharing your so funny stories, thank you very much!

The Borden case, in my opinion, is by far the most fascinating in the history, more fascinating than Jack the Ripper, Lindbergh case, the Black Dalia, or Wallace case. I am very happy to be able to exchange my ideas here with other members of the forum.

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Thank you Franz.

Fall River has, was, and still is, a very ethnic community. In Lizzie's day and right up to the sixties and seventies. There were very little numbers of Chinese in Fall River, as there are today. A hand full, when you consider a population that was once well over a hundred thousand. Most of the Chinese were laundry workers or restaurant owners. But there was no big numbers, and there was not even a Chinese sector, or neighborhood, or temple etc. The numbers were very small.

The only real world contact that I experienced with the Chinese was in their restaurants.

But there was this Chinese family who rented upstairs from my best friend Joe. This was about 20 years ago. They were very humble and private people. They worked at the China Royal Restaurant as kitchen help. They spoke no English and we no Chinese. We talked with our hands and lots of smiles.

Funny story about that Chinese family. The Chinese women would sit by the porch and watch traffic go by with my friend's mother. Now, my friend Joe was Portuguese. His mother did not speak English. The Chinese lady did not speak English. My fiends mother did not speak Chinese, and the Chinese woman did not speak Portuguese. Yet they would both sit on the porch and talk away, holding a conversation.

I asked my friends mother how she knew what this Asian woman was saying, and she claimed she did. She said, "I don't understand what she is saying, but we both know what we mean." I could only scratch my head. But in the end, I knew just what she meant.

I do not mean to bring ethnic or racial topics up in a Lizzie Borden forum. And I fully understand that that it is all about Lizzie, as the name above LBSF denotes. But one can not write about Lizzie Borden or Fall River without writing about ethnic conflict or issues.

I lived in a French neighborhood and up the road from an Italian neighborhood I lived in a Lebanese neighborhood, I lived in a polish Neighborhood—an Irish neighborhood. We moved a lot. A block or two away was a French Church, Portuguese Chruch, Lebanese Church. There were countless people who only spoke Lebanese or French. No English. The French had nothing good to say about the Portuguese and vise versa. It was just the way it was. Ethnicity could not be avoided and was woven into the community. But we all had to live together and in the end everyone got along.

Now to talk about Lizzie Borden and not bring ethnicity into it is almost impossible. But when we do we may deviate from the topic a bit. And that's OK. Otherwise this panel would be very dull.

But prejudice existed when I was a child as it did in Lizzie's day and still does today. And in a city like Fall River it is like peanut butter and jelly. You cannot separate or not bring up ethnology or cultural differences and biases. They were woven into people's cerebral hearts.

When Mr. Ford suggested that it was a Chinese who committed the Borden murders he was feeding off of ignorance and sterotyping. Perhaps there were deep seated and moral shortcomings in this fellow. Who knows.

But I can see how he makes his connection. Perhaps he just read about the Tong conflicts and the Chinese or had been out to San Francisco at a time when Chinese groups were at odds (war?) with each other out west. Who knows.

But you cannot talk about Fall River and Lizzie Borden without discussing the ethnically tainted complexion of life in Lizzie's world. Believe me. At times I grew up on the shitt end of that stick.

In the end we always return to Lizzie. After all, is that not why we are all here?

[mbhenty]

Yes: Franz

I was never interested in any of those crime stories you mentioned. In the beginning I was not even interested in Lizzie Borden. My connection with Lizzie is a obvious and natural one. I lived and grew up in fall river, and I collected books. In collecting books, one of my fields was the city I lived in. Thus collecting Lizzie Borden was just part of a greater collection.

It was not until I moved next door to Maplecroft and purchased the Davenport House, which once belonged to Lizzie, that I began taking a greater interest in the crime.

It is the only crime story in which I have any interest.

But to avoid Lizzie for me has become impossible. When I draw my shades on my windows, her house is the last thing I see before going to bed and the first when I get up.

I have yet to run into her ghost.

[Franz]

Oh my god! you are all so near to Lizzie, I am the unique exception here!

[mbhenty]

Yes: Franz


The year before Lizzie died, 1926, there were still 28 Chinese Laundries. The list below is from the 1892 Fall River Directory.

As the washing machine became popular, there were less and less Chinese Laundries. When I was a child, I think there were only 3 or 4 left, and by the time I was in high school, only one that I knew of. On Rock Street. Today there are none. At least none owned by a traditional Chinese Family.

Also, today there are about a dozen Chinese Restaurants in Lizzie's Fall River. Last time I counted, 13 of them. Most are fast food Chinese Restaurant.

Very popular, especially to a single guy who doesn't like to cook. It is one of the only eating establishments open on Christmas day.

[mbhenty]

Yes:

As one can see by the chart below, there are very little Asians in Fall River today. Very few of those are Chinese. Out of the 2200 Asians I would have to guess that at least 1800 of them are Vietnamese, Cambodian, and possibly a sprinkling of Laotians. Most came in shortly after the end of the Vietnamese War in the 70s. Most settled in Flint Village, in old Lebanese/polish neighborhoods. My old neighborhood.

The numbers I mention here are only a guess. But for sure, most are not Chinese. The list below was taken from http://www.city-data.com/city/Fall-Rive ... setts.html

Great site. Has most American cities and towns with tons of info.



White alone - 74,107 (83.4%)
Hispanic - 6,562 (7.4%)
Black alone - 3,016 (3.4%)
Asian alone - 2,249 (2.5%)
Two or more races - 1,963 (2.2%)
Other race alone - 787 (0.9%)
American Indian alone - 163 (0.2%)
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone - 10 (0.01%)


Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Fall-Rive ... z2ZSCoCLZZ

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Lizzie's European vacation?

Well, she did not go as far as China, but she did go to Italy. Below are photos of Lizzie's personal copy of T A Trollope's Italy.

The book was in her private library and is signed by Lizzie.

[NancyDrew]

I find this aspect of Lizzie's life very interesting. There must have been whispers amongst her students of her crime, and opinions shared privately within the Chinese community in Fall River at that time. Given the ethnic discrimination that existed then (and to some extent, now) I can understand why no one ever volunteered any opinions to the press. Maybe no one thought to ask.

A tiny bit off topic, I got to wondering why Chinese immigrants in the 19th century were associated so often with the laundry trade, and found this article...http://meloukhia.net/2011/10/laying_som ... undry.html.

[Franz]

Yes:

Lizzie's European vacation?

Well, she did not go as far as China, but she did go to Italy. Below are photos of Lizzie's personal copy of T A Trollope's Italy.

The book was in her private library and is signed by Lizzie.

mbhenty, thank you very much! your tread is just exciting. I imagine she must have visited Venice, Florence and Rome? Are there any information about her hotels during her holiday in Italy. If there were some prestigious hotels in her list, maybe there are still the registers of that time conserved? with Lizzie's signature on them? (I am almost jocking).

I am a great flea market and old bookstore goer, let's try if I can find that book that Lizzie possessed!

Many thanks! my friend!

[Franz]

I find this aspect of Lizzie's life very interesting. There must have been whispers amongst her students of her crime, and opinions shared privately within the Chinese community in Fall River at that time. Given the ethnic discrimination that existed then (and to some extent, now) I can understand why no one ever volunteered any opinions to the press. Maybe no one thought to ask.

A tiny bit off topic, I got to wondering why Chinese immigrants in the 19th century were associated so often with the laundry trade, and found this article...http://meloukhia.net/2011/10/laying_som ... undry.html.

I read the article. Thanks!

[Allen]

She may have only had one Chinese student, if the newspaper account is accurate, a man. And he moved away from Fall River afterwards.

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Your observation is always engaging kiddo, and begging for a response. (You poor thing. It has to be from me)

Very astute discovery Allen.

I have often read that and wondered if it was true that Lizzie indeed only had ONE CHINESE STUDENT.

Would it not be funny after all that has been said and reported in books, etc., about Lizzie teaching the Chinese, if we discovered that it was only one fellow. (after setting up the "Chinese Department" who is to say the student even showed up for class)

Proof that we know very little. Though some love to write books and claim they know a lot.

Formality would have prescribed Mrs. Holmes (or the church) to set up the class as the, "Chinese Department," even though there may have been only one student.

I have written about Lizzie's Chinese Students, and in my piece I gave her a full room of Chinese students. Making up a story one is allowed to do that, have some fun with it, garnish and embellish. The trouble is some exaggerate when writing true accounts, giving no proof and others believe everything they read.

Then again, if we want to keep Lizzie Lore going it's all for the best. Gives us something to talk about.

[Harry]

At the time of the murders there was a Chinese laundry on Second street fairly near the Borden house.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/harwid/ ... 1.jpg.html

This from the 1892 city directory. The "do" means he lived and worked at that address.

101 Second St. - Lee, Gew, laundry, 101 Second, house do. – p352

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Wooe, Great Post Harry. I have seen that photo many times and never really read the little sign on the left. I have seen photos that have excluded or cropped out the left side of the street, excluding the sign. That is Gew Lee Laundry at 101 Second Street. There were actually 3 Chinese laundries on Second Street in 1892. (FR directory)

[Harry]

Sorry MB, didn't mean to repeat your street info on my edit.

Can't imagine the Bordens going there.

Wasn't there rumors of a drug den there?

[Harry]

Found this in the June 17, 1893 issue of the Providence Journal.

"... Something new in the line of missionary work indulged in by Miss Borden came to the surface to-day and created some mingled interest and amusement. It had been generally acknowledged that the accused had been very active in the fields devoted to the saving and regeneration of souls, but until to-day the nature and character of the souls to be saved had not been divulged. Mrs. Holmes gave out the information in the statement that Miss Lizzie’s Sunday school labors

Were Confined to the Chinese
Department.

With the utmost reverence for matters of a religious nature, there was something absolutely ludicrous in the picture of an army of Mongolians deserting their washtubs and flatirons, laying aside their pipes of opium and leaving their games of fan tan to hurry to the Congregational Church to received instructions in things sacred from the phlegmatic Lizzie Borden. ..."

Sorry Franz if it is offensive in any way. This was 1893 not 2013.

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Probably no offense will be taken by Franz, Harry.

He's Italian.

And, he hasn't been to Congregational Church in years.

Yes, that leap frog posting by you and I has happened a couple of times before.

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Being into old New England architecture, homes, like cape cods, two story colonials, Greed revivals, etc., I find it sad that the old Kelly Cape Cod home did not survive as a residence.

In the photo below you can still see the cape's old chimney and roof peak in the center of the one addition after another. Once a marvelous Greek Revival Cape Cod home it now has been swallowed up by onw store front appendages after another.

Like the old Charles Trafton house at number 92 next door, it's a wonder that the old cape was never demolished.

But, as it exists, it just as well might have been.

[mbhenty]

Yes:

In the photo below:

The grass lot across the street and up a ways from 92 Second Street is where Gew Lee Laundry once stood. It is now the NW corner of Second and Spring Street.

You can see the Kelly and Borden house on the right.

In 1892 the guy on the motorbike was not there.

[Aamartin]

I believe he is of Chinese descent-- living in Italy.

[NancyDrew]

Yes, I think that is true also...he claims to be living in Rome. I think it's fascinating that people all over the world are interested in this case.

BTW, thanks guys, for the photos. The area of the Borden house is so very different than it was 120 years ago. Fall River, like so many New England towns (and really all across the country, it's not limited to the northeast) is struggling. I used to have several accounts, in FR, but they went out of business.

[Franz]

The forum is dedicated to Lizzie... but only a word about me: I am Chinese (not Italian) and have a Chinese passport. I have been living in Italy for 12 years.

A "Hello" (bis) to everyone, very happy to meet you here, because of Lizzie.

Thank you very much for those links and photos!

[mbhenty]

Yes Franz:

Thanks for the personal declaration. Though it is nice to know, focus here is indeed on the Borden case. The remarks I made above was just a friendly joke and not a critical or favorable reflection on you, italians or Chinese.

Just congenial banter amongst forum friends.

But, I'm sure you understand that someone who is Chinese, and living in Italy, and interested in an American Victorian Crime is unique if not very uncommon. Thus, you must admit that someone such as yourself would stand out.

All that being said...

Let me add that the stimulating conversation which you have contributed to this forum is very welcomed and interesting. Weather you are Polishguese, Frenchguese, Portuguese, Italinguese, or Chinese makes no difference here when we talk "LIZZIE."

All in all, your input has been refreshing and has stimulated much talk on a forum that was withering.

Thus, post away good buddy. (If we run out of material to talk about we can always talk about Amanda Knox Borden)

[Aamartin]

Well said MB! Keep posting Franz.

[Franz]

Thus, post away good buddy. (If we run out of material to talk about we can always talk about Amanda Knox Borden)

Yes, I will, mbhenty and aamartin, good buddy!

(P.S.: Amanda Knox Borden has some link with me...Me too I studied Italian in Perugia, )

[irina]

Just from last year, but a good item to pull forward right now.

[debbiediablo]

Hey mbhenty! I had a good laugh, too. You are so kind for sharing your so funny stories, thank you very much!

The Borden case, in my opinion, is by far the most fascinating in the history, more fascinating than Jack the Ripper, Lindbergh case, the Black Dalia, or Wallace case. I am very happy to be able to exchange my ideas here with other members of the forum.

Then Franz, you should come to Iowa and learn about the Villisca ax murders!!!

[debbiediablo]

I'm curious if Skipper is bi-lingual or tr-lingual or does he 'speak' only one language.

[PossumPie]

In the 1800s many of the Chinese who came to America spoke "Pidgin English" a mixture of some Chinese words and some American slang. Some prases still remain in English today. We say "Chop Chop" to mean hurry up. It may have its origins in the South China Sea, as a Pidgin English version of the Chinese term k'wâi-k'wâi (Chinese: 快快; pinyin: kuài kuài) The Chinese often knew just enough English to get by, and many Americans who worked around them knew some Pidgin English. I doubt Lizzie was fluent in Chinese. I envy you Franz, speaking so many languages, I know enough Spanish to communicate, and English, I tried learning German but didn't stick with it.