A kangaroo court

[NancyDrew]

Definition: "a mock court in which the principles of law and justice are disregarded or perverted"

In my opinion, the Borden trial was rigged. A farce, a pretense, a show for the public. That's all it was. Lizzie's acquittal was bought and paid for well before the judge's gavel first came down.


Were the citizens of Fall River outraged? They should have been. Judge Dewey should have been arrested and charged with conduct unbefitting an officer of the court.

We are all entitled to live our lives and pursue happiness as we see it. No one, regardless of their choices in life, deserves to have our lives shortened by a murderer.

All evidence pointed to Lizzie Borden as the author of these crimes. She was the only one in the house with Abby. The home itself was tightly locked. Besides Emma, no one benefited from the deaths of Abby and Andrew but Lizzie herself.

She had no shame, showing up to court dressed in fancy black clothes when on the day of the tragedy itself, she saw fit to wear a cheerful pink striped dress.
She had no shame, buying a huge, ostentatious house on the hill, going so far as to name the house, and have it engraved on the front steps.
She had no shame, pilfering expensive items from a gift store when she had more than enough money to pay for it.

I can see her now, riding around her in her chauffeur-driven limousine, throwing parties for show-biz folks, something her father would have found abhorrent. I don't care how many pets she had, she was an awful, detestable woman. Selfish, greedy, materialistic, and full of concern for herself. I'm glad she spent her days shunned by society, and constantly vigilant for anyone's disapproval of her. GOOD.

What I don't understand is why there was no cry for justice. The jury found her innocent..okay, well then WHO DID IT?

I've come a long way with this case...myself, personally. It was the time-travel questions by Aamartin that got me thinking...I don't think I like Lizzie Borden at all. In fact, I find her disgusting. She isn't rare, unfortunately, History is rife with greedy persons who put personal pleasure above respect for anyone else.

I started a topic back a while ago about Heaven, and whether anyone thought Lizzie believed in it. Well, I do, and I can tell you this: she isn't there.

I have a strong distaste for the perversion of justice and truth this case represents. It's the same kind of feeling I got when I posted that I didn't think serving axe shaped cookies at the B&B was appropriate. When we become enured to the degradation of righteousness we walk a slippery slope.

Two people were mercilessly slaughtered in their own home. And I think the behavior of their daughters is deserving of our contempt, as was the behavior of her attorneys, and the officers of the court, sworn to uphold the law.

Maybe THIS is the reason Robinson et al won't release the case files...it might reveal what really happened...a murderer got away with it, and the legal system helped her.

[Miranda]

I agree with most of this, I just feel a little different about Lizzie. she was mentally ill, that's obvious. What she did was truly awful, but I feel pity for her.

For years, I wanted to believe in her innocence, but couldn't. Too much circumstancial evidence. Too much opportunity, and too many bald face lies.

[NancyDrew]

Hi Miranda: Thanks for replying to my post.

WAS she mentally ill? Or was she just EVIL?

It's an interesting question. I've been fascinated with human behavior since I can remember. I remember reading "The Stranger Beside Me" by Ann Rule, about Ted Bundy, and wondering, was he mentally ill? Did he know what he was doing was wrong?

I'v concluded that yes, he did. He was a remarkably intelligent and charismatic person. He was able to kill without detection for years because he knew how to game the system.

We look at someone like that, someone who kills for pleasure, and think "anyone who does that MUST be sick." But at the time he was doing it, did he know his actions were wrong? Of course he did. He chose to do them anyways.

I asked this question before on the forum...was Lizzie possibly insane? The answer came back: no. She was found to be of sound mind.

This is a topic that hits at the heart of what one thinks about humanity in general. Is EVERYONE a "good person" deep down inside? When I was a younger person, I thought this was true. I believed with all my heart that people were basically good at their core, and that any sort of hurtful behavior or choices was an aberrant attempt to fill some sort of need. I thought that if you could just break down someone's defenses, you'd find a warm caring soul at the heart of each human being.

I've changed my mind.

I now believe in Evil. I do NOT know if there is a literal "Hell" that people go to when they die...you know the one pictured by Hollywood, and the Catholic Church, and born agains...full of pitchforks, and lakes of flames, tormented souls screaming for eterminty...very, very hot...everyone dressed in ragged clothes. The colors 'black' and 'red' always come to mind.

I taught chemistry and physics for many years. The first law of Thermodynamics states that the energy of the universes cannot be created or destroyed. It is a constant. When we die, the 20 watts of energy that our brain produced while living HAS to go somewhere. Do we retain a corporeal consciousness? Do you still know that you are YOU once you stop breathing?

I thinik: YES. I realize this is way off topic, and I realize that this is an intensely PERSONAL matter, but I believe that when you commit evil deeds in your life...when you murder and kill and cause untold harm and grief to others, that your energy, once you die, is simple dispersed...like so much dust blown off an old book. This is a wild theroy...and I don't expect or want to convince anyone else of it.

To tie it back to what we were talking about...I don't think Lizzie was insane. Mentally ill? Perhaps. We are all, to some extent...it's a continuum . But when she swumg that axe, I think she knew EXACTLY what she was doing. I think she knew killing was wrong, and she did it anyways. And when she saw those lifeless bodies, her reaction spoke volumes. No tears. No hysterics. No OUTRAGE...as in "who could have done this???" She knew who did it, and her only thought was for herself. How could she answer the questions in such a way that she would not around suspicion. How could she get Dr. Bowen to give her drugs so that the whole act was a little easier for her to pull off.

And so, Miranda, I have no pity for her. She lived a very privileged life. She never knew was it was like to wonder where next meal was coming from. She never heard the crack of a whip she knew was meant for her. Lizzie never went hungry, or had to worry, one single day in her entire life.

I don't want to speculate about her...what movies would Lizzie like, what were her favorite foods, would I want to talk to her? I do not care. She doesn't deserve that kind of attention.

I will end with this: I love my own father very, very much. And if I found his body hacked to death by someone, I'd move heaven and earth to figure out who committed this outrage against my own blood.

I don't think human life was very precious to Lizzie Andrew Borden. She wanted her creature comforts, a big house (ridiculously large for one person), beautiful clothes, expensive things, and important friends. She was very much in control of herself, and I think she absolutely knew what she was doing. My feeling for her is contempt, not pity..

[Aamartin]

I used to really struggle with inherit evil in people as well. I just didn't want to believe it could exist. I clung to many things about Lizzie to focus on for her being a decent person, most notably her love of animals. It took me years to put that aside and come to the conclusion that she was most probably guilty.

It is easy to be bountiful and generous to those who pose no threat to you, ie- animals, servants and the other people Lizzie gifted and bequeathed her estate to.

I have also come to know (in my own mind) that a great many people are capable of a great amount of violence if their particular buttons are pushed-- and those buttons vary with people. For me? Someone threatening my child could lead me to violence, but someone else might be inclined to violence if someone 'disrespected' them, ie- gang members. (I am NOT comparing Lizzie to a gang member-- just pointing out a culture.)

We don't know what Lizzie really thought or how her mind processed things. If money was her God-- well-- she could very well have been capable of the killings. Once this was done, she enjoyed financial freedom and never had occasion to do it again.

[NancyDrew]

You make an excellent point, Aamartin....she was kind to those who posed no threat to her. I still wonder, though, how she lived with the memories of what she had done. It appears that mentally, she was not at peace after the murders. All the things she craved so much as a younger woman: the material things...they ultimately were poor companions..(except of course for her friendship with the acting troupe, and even if that didn't appear to last very long.)

The fall-out with Emma. Maybe she finally got Lizzie to break down and admit what she had done...and Emma simply couldn't abide it. Emma had a confessor the whole time...Reverend Buck. Lizzie, to my knowledge, didn't.

Do you agree with my opinion that the trial was a joke? All that trouble to convict her, and there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell she was going to pay for her crimes. Ironic, no?

[Franz]

...
She had no shame, showing up to court dressed in fancy black clothes when on the day of the tragedy itself, she saw fit to wear a cheerful pink striped dress.

Even though I could disagree with you for the essential opinion, but I appreciate a lot your sensibility about details as the dress colour.

Lizzie didn't hide her emotions in front of Bridget, Mrs. Churchill, Alice, or even Mr. Sawyer, but in front of the policemen she self-controled better. In my opinion, her changing the cloth could have been for the same reason. She could have paid no attention (had no room in her mind) about the dress colour in that tragic circumstance; or she could have been chocked but meanwhile secretly satisfied by the death of the two victims, and therefore she just ddin't take care of the dress colour at all.

[twinsrwe]

Well, I refuse to pass judgment on Lizzie. She may or may not have been the killer, and until she is proven guilty beyond a reason doubt, I can't in good conscience condemn her.

Granted, there are a lot of unanswered questions surrounding the Borden murders; unfortunately, the answers to these questions may never come to light.

Yes, Lizzie’s reactions and actions after the bodies of Andrew and Abby were found, at their funeral, during her trial and after her acquittal were indeed strange. But, who I am to question her actions and reactions without knowing Lizzie and the circumstances involved.

As far as that goes, when you think about it, Emma’s actions and reactions were just as strange as Lizzie’s behaviors were. However, Emma was not nearly in the center of everyone’s focus as much as Lizzie was, since she was out of town the day of the murders. I have always found it very odd that these two women were not more persistence in finding out who killed their father and step-mother.

I believe Emma knew who the killer was. The circumstantial evidence alone should have been a red flag to her, but, she let it all go since there was no blood noticed on Lizzie the day of the murders, and no murder weapon was found. I believe that she was doing exactly what she had promised her mother; she was protecting and watching out for ‘baby Lizzie’; that is until whatever circumstances took place that drove her to leave Maplecroft and never speak to Lizzie again.

[Aamartin]

I believe Emma knew who the killer was as well, as did Bridget.

As for the trial, yes, it was a foregone conclusion.

[Franz]

Granted, there are a lot of unanswered questions surrounding the Borden murders; unfortunately, the answers to these questions may never come to light.

Yes, twinsrwe, a lot of unanswered questions.

And I think that there are a lot of very important questions the police hadn't room in mind to ask! In my opinion they did a very bad job and this is one of the reasons for which the Borden case remains unsolved.

[NancyDrew]

Franz: I don't agree. I think they could have found Lizzie with the dripping axe in hand, and she still wouldn't have hung for her crime. I think her defense would have declared her insane and she would have spent a while in an asylum for women. Massachusetts wasn't going to murder the daughter of Andrew Borden....at least that is how i feel now...

[Franz]

Franz: I don't agree. I think they could have found Lizzie with the dripping axe in hand, and she still wouldn't have hung for her crime. I think her defense would have declared her insane and she would have spent a while in an asylum for women. Massachusetts wasn't going to murder the daughter of Andrew Borden....at least that is how i feel now...

NancyDrew, if I remember well (please correct me if I am wrong), it was suggested to the defence to make a "Lizzie's insane" pleading, but the defence part refused.

I am thinking to make a list of all those questions that, in my opinion, should have been asked by the police but they didn't. I think if those questions had been asked and consequent investigations had been done, we would be more certain of, or Lizzie's guilt, or her innocence (and the guilt of someone else).

[NancyDrew]

You are correct, I think it might have been me that asked if Lizzie was crazy. As it turns out the defense didn't use an insanity defense, but I'll bet they considered it.

You suggestion about the questions that should have been asked is a good one...you should start a separate thread for it...

[PossumPie]

You are correct, I think it might have been me that asked if Lizzie was crazy. As it turns out the defense didn't use an insanity defense, but I'll bet they considered it.

You suggestion about the questions that should have been asked is a good one...you should start a separate thread for it...

I think "insane" is often misused. We say about a killer "he/she must have been insane to kill...." Insanity is a loss of touch with reality coupled with an INABILITY to be held accountable for one's actions. Jeffry Dahmer hunted down murdered and ate his victims. That sounds insane, but when we see the methodical way he planned and covered up his crimes, he was brilliant and twisted, NOT insane. I don't think Lizzie was insane at all. IF she did it, she was methodical and got away with it. Methodical, lucky, and twisted? yes. Insane? not at all.

[NancyDrew]

I thought there, as far as an affirmative defense goes, insane meant the person committing the crime didn't know the difference between right and wrong at the time. What do you think of Lincolns' notion about Lizzie having "fugue' states?

[Miranda]

There is a difference between mental illness and insanity. Many people go about their lives with mental illness to one degree or another. I have OCD, to the point of feeling stupid sometimes, but I am not insane. I know what im doing, I just cant seem to stop it. I make excuses for my 'aberration', to myself and others. Like Lizzie, most people that don't know me think im weird. (The ones who do know me cant wait for me to visit, I have to clean their house LOL)

Lizzie was reportedly also a Kleptomaniac. which is a mental illness, not insanity. I would be more likely to believe I insanity if she had gone on a brief rampage and killed both parents. Waiting for papa to come home says to me she was at least marginally in control of herself.

[PossumPie]

I thought there, as far as an affirmative defense goes, insane meant the person committing the crime didn't know the difference between right and wrong at the time. What do you think of Lincolns' notion about Lizzie having "fugue' states?

I think I discussed this several weeks ago, Fugue is a mental illness characterized by loss of knowledge of who you are, and accompanied by travel. In other words they often end up in another state or city, forgetting who they are, or anything about their past lives. I think a more accurate term in this case would be Post Traumatic amnesia, but that really doesn't fit either. Lizzie was shown to have kleptomania, a compulsion to take items that don't belong. We truly don't know about any hidden truama such as repeated molestation, etc. This has been brought up before, the possibility of "Snapping" This psudo-scientific explanation is that some people stuff things inside until they "go postal" or "snap" These actions may or may not include planning, People who just walk into schools and begin shooting often have fantasized and even planned the attack long ahead of time. Some like Harris/Klebold at Columbine planned for a year. Others "snap" and attack. These are sloppy with no attempt to cover up until after. If Lizzie 'snapped' she was very skillled/lucky at covering her tracks. No blood trail, stains, or other clues pointing to her were found. If she planned, that shows aforethought, and rational thinking.