Maggie, I am almost certain I heard her come in

[Franz]

aamartin, in my theory, when the messenger came to delivery the note, Bridget was in the barn to fetch the handle for cleaning windows and to fetch water, so she could have not noticed nothing. And Lizzie was in her room (maybe for her period matter, with her door closed). and I have said as well that Lizzie could have lied about her whereabouts, placing her as far as possible from the guest room.

And in my theory, I never used expression like "ring the bell". If I recall correctly, it was usually Abby who answered if there was someone at the front door.

[Aamartin]

But wouldn't Lizzie have heard the bell?

[Franz]

But wouldn't Lizzie have heard the bell?

aamartin, why do you think that the messenger, if there were one, had to ring the bell?

[Franz]

Franz, I've read your theory many times. I still say that for someone to Ring the bell, be answered by Mrs. Borden, have a conversation on the front walk, have a person sneak PAST Mrs. Borden in broad daylight in a crime-ridden neighborhood and run up the stairs, hide, then Mrs. Borden go up the stairs and be killed has two glaring problems. As Aamartin says, there was not a time when this could happen when Bridget or Lizzie weren't around. Bridget was washing windows, inside and out. Out front of the house also. Lizzie was in her room and downstairs, she would have seen/heard someone sneaking in. THEN, when did Mrs. Borden have a chance to tell Lizzie that she got a note? Your theory could work ONLY if a dozen incredible coincidences all happened together. Your plan could work only if no one saw them on the street, no one saw the person sneak in the house, no one in the house saw or heard a man run up the stairs, all of which are HIGHLY improbable. Read the testimony of the huge number of witnesses who were looking out their windows, walking the street, out in their yards, SOMEONE SAW:
Mr. Borden leave,
Mr. Borden return,
Bridget run to the doctors,
Bridget return from the doctors.
Morse leave in the morning,
Morse Return.
EVERYTHING that occurred outside of that house was observed by some neighbor that day. BUT no one saw Mrs. Borden talking to someone on the sidewalk, OR a sinister man sneaking behind her and entering the house, they would have called the police immediately. That street seemed full of nosy neighbors.

PossumPie, if you read Mrs. Kelly's testimony, you will know how many people Mrs. Kelly saw in the street (except Mr. Borden), when she went to see her dentist.

If you read Bridget's testimony, you will know, when she returned from Dr. Bowen (she didn't find him there), how many people she saw in the street.

I agree that in my theory there are a number of coincidences that must occured all together so that my theory could be possible. But I permit me to ask this question: is there any theory in favor of Lizzie's innocence, or even in favore of her guilt, that doesn't contain a number of coincidences?

The Borden case happened more than 120 years ago, and up to now we just can't find the truth. Even though there are a number of circumstancial evidence against Lizzie, we just can't be certain of her guilt. This in itself is just something of extremely extraordinary. No matter if Lizzie was innocent or guilty, a number of coincidences occured that morning in that house, I firmly believe in this.

(P.S.: PossumPie, you suggested to me one day to change my mind, to consider the case from another point of view. Here I invite you, and other members of the forum to change for a moment their mind and consider the case in a different way. Let's suppose (just for a moment) that the killer was an intruder (it's possible), and everyone make a theory to explain the case, giving (at least) possible conjectures to, among others, these two crucial points:
1. When, from where and how did the intruder enter into the house;
2. The note story.

I am pretty sure that if you do this exercise, you will find that this would not be a easy task.)

[Allen]

Whether it's a knock on the front door or the doorbell ringing it is going to attract attention. That's the purpose for doing both isn't it? To attract attention to someone being at the door to be let in? Or maybe there was some secret knock that only Abby could hear.

The killer was not going to get behind Abby, go directly behind her back, at the door without being seen or heard. It's not going to happen. Unless they moved Abby clear out by the street to have this conversation it's not going to happen at the entrance of that house on those front stairs. I've been on those front stairs. I sat outside one evening talking to a gentleman who worked there on those front steps. The next morning he cooked me a lovely breakfast. It's not happening. Second he's not going to get up those stairs without making noise.

[Franz]

Whether it's a knock on the front door or the doorbell ringing it is going to attract attention. That's the purpose for doing both isn't it? To attract attention to someone being at the door to be let in? Or maybe there was some secret knock that only Abby could hear.

The killer was not going to get behind Abby, go directly behind her back, at the door without being seen or heard. It's not going to happen. Unless they moved Abby clear out by the street to have this conversation it's not going to happen at the entrance of that house on those front stairs. I've been on those front stairs. I sat outside one evening talking to a gentleman who worked there on those front steps. The next morning he cooked me a lovely breakfast. It's not happening. Second he's not going to get up those stairs without making noise.

Allen, in my theory when the messenger knocked the door, Lizzie had already closed herself in her room, Bridget was in the barn (if I am not wrong, it is generally thought that Abby was killed about 9:20-9:30. Almost at the same time, as Bridget testified, she went into the barn for her houshold work.)

The messenger acted in such a manner that Abby went down to the fence which separated the property from the street. She was not standing on the stairs. The killer stepped up the parapet and enter the house. He would certainly have been very careful to not make any noise.

[Miranda]

These people were so suspicious that they locked the doors INSIDE THE HOUSE. Do you really think someone could 'slip in' without notice?

[Allen]

Whether it's a knock on the front door or the doorbell ringing it is going to attract attention. That's the purpose for doing both isn't it? To attract attention to someone being at the door to be let in? Or maybe there was some secret knock that only Abby could hear.

The killer was not going to get behind Abby, go directly behind her back, at the door without being seen or heard. It's not going to happen. Unless they moved Abby clear out by the street to have this conversation it's not going to happen at the entrance of that house on those front stairs. I've been on those front stairs. I sat outside one evening talking to a gentleman who worked there on those front steps. The next morning he cooked me a lovely breakfast. It's not happening. Second he's not going to get up those stairs without making noise.

Allen, in my theory when the messenger knocked the door, Lizzie had already closed herself in her room, Bridget was in the barn (if I am not wrong, it is generally thought that Abby was killed about 9:20-9:30. Almost at the same time, as Bridget testified, she went into the barn for her houshold work.)

The messenger acted in such a manner that Abby went down to the fence which separated the property from the street. She was not standing on the stairs. The killer stepped up the parapet and enter the house. He would certainly have been very careful to not make any noise.

If he is being careful not to make any noise he would have been moving very slowly. I don't know a way to run up the stairs quietly. And you are saying that it is more likely that Lizzie did not hear a man coming up the stairs and walking by right outside her bedroom door to get to the room right next door to hers?

[PossumPie]

PossumPie, if you have read my theory many times, I wonder why you said that in my theory the guy (the messenger) followd Mrs. Borden and then killed her...

Then tell me Franz, How COULD not one of the nosy neighbors who saw everyone who came and went that day NOT see Mrs. Borden talking on the street to a stranger, while some villain sneaked past her and dashed up the stairs?? I'd like enlightenment on that point. And Bridget who was washing the side windows not see anyone? and Lizzie who was inside not see someone make a dash in the door and up the stairs? and neither one of them hear a knock at the door, nor Mrs. Borden unlock all of the locks which was a noisy process.

[twinsrwe]

Whether it's a knock on the front door or the doorbell ringing it is going to attract attention. That's the purpose for doing both isn't it? To attract attention to someone being at the door to be let in? Or maybe there was some secret knock that only Abby could hear.

The killer was not going to get behind Abby, go directly behind her back, at the door without being seen or heard. It's not going to happen. Unless they moved Abby clear out by the street to have this conversation it's not going to happen at the entrance of that house on those front stairs. I've been on those front stairs. I sat outside one evening talking to a gentleman who worked there on those front steps. The next morning he cooked me a lovely breakfast. It's not happening. Second he's not going to get up those stairs without making noise.

Allen, in my theory when the messenger knocked the door, Lizzie had already closed herself in her room, Bridget was in the barn (if I am not wrong, it is generally thought that Abby was killed about 9:20-9:30. Almost at the same time, as Bridget testified, she went into the barn for her houshold work.)

The messenger acted in such a manner that Abby went down to the fence which separated the property from the street. She was not standing on the stairs. The killer stepped up the parapet and enter the house. He would certainly have been very careful to not make any noise.

Allen, I have a couple of questions for you…

Since you have been at the 92 Second Street house, is there enough space between the fence and the house for a person to quietly sneak past Abby, go up the front steps and enter the house without Abby noticing them?

Approximately, how wide would you say the space between the fence and the house is?

Unfortunately, I have not been to the house, but according to the photo below, there just doesn’t appear to be enough space for a human being to sneak past another human being without being noticed!!!

Residence of Andrew Jackson Borden, 92 Second St., Fall River, Mass., in 1892. (SHNS photo courtesy Fall River (Mass.) Historical Society).jpg

Click on the attachment to enlarge.

[PossumPie]

As I've said before, we will have to agree to disagree. Franz, I believe coincidences happen every day. If I roll dice, and get 2 sixes, that is coincidence. If I do it twice, BIG coincidence. BUT 6 times in a row, that is virtually impossible. I wouldn't bet money on that EVER. Your theory has so many coincidences all in perfect line, that it goes from a coincidence to impossible. An intruder just "took a chance" that they wouldn't be heard, wouldn't be seen, could get out without being heard, without being seen, and all to help a man who had absolutely no Motive to kill two elderly people??? Too many coincidences. Witnesses saw everyone come and go from the house that day EXCEPT the killer? EXCEPT Mrs. Borden standing at the steps talking to a stranger? Poppycock says I !

[Allen]

Whether it's a knock on the front door or the doorbell ringing it is going to attract attention. That's the purpose for doing both isn't it? To attract attention to someone being at the door to be let in? Or maybe there was some secret knock that only Abby could hear.

The killer was not going to get behind Abby, go directly behind her back, at the door without being seen or heard. It's not going to happen. Unless they moved Abby clear out by the street to have this conversation it's not going to happen at the entrance of that house on those front stairs. I've been on those front stairs. I sat outside one evening talking to a gentleman who worked there on those front steps. The next morning he cooked me a lovely breakfast. It's not happening. Second he's not going to get up those stairs without making noise.

Allen, in my theory when the messenger knocked the door, Lizzie had already closed herself in her room, Bridget was in the barn (if I am not wrong, it is generally thought that Abby was killed about 9:20-9:30. Almost at the same time, as Bridget testified, she went into the barn for her houshold work.)

The messenger acted in such a manner that Abby went down to the fence which separated the property from the street. She was not standing on the stairs. The killer stepped up the parapet and enter the house. He would certainly have been very careful to not make any noise.

Allen, I have a couple of questions for you…

Since you have been at the 92 Second Street house, is there enough space between the fence and the house for a person to quietly sneak past Abby, go up the front steps and enter the house without Abby noticing them?

Approximately, how wide would you say the space between the fence and the house is?

Unfortunately, I have not been to the house, but according to the photo below, there just doesn’t appear to be enough space for a human being to sneak past another human being without being notice!!!

Residence of Andrew Jackson Borden, 92 Second St., Fall River, Mass., in 1892. (SHNS photo courtesy Fall River (Mass.) Historical Society).jpg

Click on the attachment to enlarge.

The space between the house and fence is wider than it appears in the photographs, in my opinion. But I don't know if the fence is in the same place it was back then. So I could not say for sure. I do know that sneaking behind Abby at that door is not going to happen. And I don't think Abby would walk even as far as the fence to talk to a stranger and leave her home open when they were so careful they locked all of the doors on the second floor of their home. Abby would stand at the door and talk to the stranger. And Lizzie would hear someone coming up the stairs and walking right past her room to go into the room right next door. Franz is free to believe what he wants. But there are sooooo many implausibilities and coincidences it boggles the mind in that theory. For that theory to have any chance to have taken place in the way he describes is like setting up domino's and knocking them down. Like building a rube goldberg machine for murder. And if one element doesn't fall the whole thing is ruined.

[Aamartin]

But wouldn't Lizzie have heard the bell?

aamartin, why do you think that the messenger, if there were one, had to ring the bell?

Franz.... How else is he going to get the attention of someone inside the very well locked house?

And-- although Bridget was outdoors-- washing windows, in the barn, gabbing with the Kelly's maid-- still-- that would take masterful timing to go to the front door without the possibility of being seen. A very bold move.

The street was also a busy one-- like the one I live on. I live 'upstreet' on Main Street. It's a busy street. I don't think someone could come and go here without being noticed. It is likely no one would pay particular attention-- but if word got out later that I had some sort of trouble/crime here-- people would remember seeing something. Especially if it was something as riveting as a double murder.

[twinsrwe]

Allen, I have a couple of questions for you…

Since you have been at the 92 Second Street house, is there enough space between the fence and the house for a person to quietly sneak past Abby, go up the front steps and enter the house without Abby noticing them?

Approximately, how wide would you say the space between the fence and the house is?

Unfortunately, I have not been to the house, but according to the photo below, there just doesn’t appear to be enough space for a human being to sneak past another human being without being notice!!!

Residence of Andrew Jackson Borden, 92 Second St., Fall River, Mass., in 1892. (SHNS photo courtesy Fall River (Mass.) Historical Society).jpg

Click on the attachment to enlarge.

The space between the house and fence is wider than it appears in the photographs, in my opinion. But I don't know if the fence is in the same place it was back then. So I could not say for sure. I do know that sneaking behind Abby at that door is not going to happen. And I don't think Abby would walk even as far as the fence to talk to a stranger and leave her home open when they were so careful they locked all of the doors on the second floor of their home. Abby would stand at the door and talk to the stranger. And Lizzie would hear someone coming up the stairs and walking right past her room to go into the room right next door. Franz is free to believe what he wants. But there are sooooo many implausibilities and coincidences it boggles the mind in that theory. For that theory to have any chance take place in the way he discribes is like setting up domino's and knocking them down. Like bulding a rube goldberg machine for murder. And if one element doesn't fall the whole thing is ruined.

Thanks for the information, Allen.

I agree, Abby would definitely stand at the front door to talk to a stranger; even if the stranger were standing out on the sidewalk. When you stop and think about the fact that the outside doors of the Borden house were kept locked, as well as the doors inside the house, then, no, Abby would not have gone down to the fence to speak with a stranger!!! Obviously, the Borden family did not trust anyone, since, it is my understanding that they did live in a high crime area. Therefore, Abby would not have allowed the door to her house to remain unlocked, and most likely opened, while she went down to the street to talk to someone she didn’t know. I think she would have most likely asked the strange to come up the steps to her, or spoke with him from the front step landing.

I found the following photo, which shows some people going into the B&B…

outside-of-the-b-b.jpg

Enlarge the attachment, and then look at the woman about to go up the steps, and the man standing out on the sidewalk. In my mind, this is approximately where the messenger and Abby would be placed as described by Franz, according to his theory.

Here is an even better photo of people standing in front of the B&B.

lizzie-borden-1040cs073112.jpg

Enlarge the attachment: This photo gives me a better idea of just how much space is available for the killer to sneak past Abby, go up the front steps and enter the house without her noticing them. The killer would, in all likelihood, have brushed up against Abby in order to sneak by her. (Even if the fence has been moved, there doesn’t appear to be a lot of space to move it very far).

[PossumPie]

Thanks Twinsrwe!!! That really puts it in perspective. A person sneaking into the house would almost have had to jump over Mrs. Borden!!!

[twinsrwe]

Thanks Twinsrwe!!! That really puts it in perspective. A person sneaking into the house would almost have had to jump over Mrs. Borden!!!

You're welcome, PossumPie. I can't tell you how pleased I was to find the second photo that I posted; that particular photo really says it all!

[Aamartin]

Was the street or sidewalk widened when it was paved? Anyone know? In any case-- that front door is very close to the sidewalk.

[Allen]

Where does the information come from that they lived in a high crime area?

[PossumPie]

Where does the information come from that they lived in a high crime area?

I think most of the information is anecdotal. Lizzie was always going on about the 'bad neighborhood' but other neighbors like Mrs. Churchill seemed comfortable coming and going without an escort, and Dr. Bowen lived in the neighborhood, and he certainly could have moved if it were bad. I think I've read some newspaper reports at the time that it was not "the best" part of town, but I always took that to mean that given what Andrew could afford, they were living 'below their means" not in the getto. Obviously they locked their house up like Fort Knox, and there had been a break-in to their barn so there may have been some small truth to the rumor.

Franz's theory could only work if someone lured Mrs. Borden out of the doorway, down the steps, across the sidewalk, so an accomplice could sneak in behind her. I live in a great neighborhood, BUT when a stranger comes to my door, I stay RIGHT IN THE DOORWAY! I am not being lured away from my house by a stranger! That is just common sense. Heck, I don't even trust the Jehovah's Witnesses that come to my door in suits and ties and Bibles , much less some other stranger trying to lure me away. I doubt that someone ringing the bell, then running back down the stairs and standing 20ft away on the sidewalk could instill much confidence in me to come out to see what they wanted.

[twinsrwe]

Where does the information come from that they lived in a high crime area?

Well, as I stated in my post, it is my understanding that the Bordens lived in a high crime area. Apparently, I am wrong in making this statement.

PossumPie, is correct, it is an anecdotal statement on my part, because I did not do any research on this particular subject. I assumed that since leitskrv had posted the statement, Fall River was a high crime area, (See subject titled: Did Lizzie have dome one to help her?) that it covered all areas of Fall River.

I apologize, since it appears that I assumed incorrectly.

[Aamartin]

Where does the information come from that they lived in a high crime area?

Well, as I stated in my post, it is my understanding that the Bordens lived in a high crime area. Apparently, I am wrong in making this statement.

PossumPie, is correct, it is an anecdotal statement on my part, because I did not do any research on this particular subject. I assumed that since leitskrv had posted the statement, Fall River was a high crime area, (See subject titled: Did Lizzie have dome one to help her?) that it covered all areas of Fall River.

I apologize, since it appears that I assumed incorrectly.

The over-locking of the house has to be for a reason... Insider mistrust accounts for locking bedrooms-- but that place was Fort Knox... There are reasons for that.

That said-- I am a door locker. Not while we are up and about-- or when my son is at work, etc. But if we are all in--- even as early as mid afternoon-- this place is locked up tight.

[PossumPie]

Where does the information come from that they lived in a high crime area?

Well, as I stated in my post, it is my understanding that the Bordens lived in a high crime area. Apparently, I am wrong in making this statement.

PossumPie, is correct, it is an anecdotal statement on my part, because I did not do any research on this particular subject. I assumed that since leitskrv had posted the statement, Fall River was a high crime area, (See subject titled: Did Lizzie have dome one to help her?) that it covered all areas of Fall River.

I apologize, since it appears that I assumed incorrectly.

Twinsrwe, I don't believe you are incorrect in believing that there was crime in the area. "High Crime Area" is relative. Compared to the area Maplecroft was in, the area the Borden's lived in may have had more petty thefts. When I first moved to where I live now, I found it odd that people went out on errands and left their doors unlocked. People left their cars running and went in to the gas station to pick up a pack of smokes. There was no crime out here. BUT I have lived in an area in "town" where you locked vehicles b/c kids would steal the CDs or Change out of your car, but not so high crime that there were any burglaries. It is relative. Like I said earlier, the fact that a doctor still chose to live on the street tells me it wasn't teeming with hooligans waiting to rob you blind. BUT as Aamartin said, they did keep that place locked up tight. I guess the question is did they do it b/c they were targeted multiple times already (probably by Lizzie though) or was it b/c of the reputation of the neighborhood? I don't know the answer. I do know that Mrs. Churchill, Mrs. Borden, Lizzie, Emma, and Bridget were not so uncomfortable in the neighborhood that they needed an escort when the went out walking around... "High crime" is like "it was a hot day" totally relative.

[Darrowfan]

Hello, all. Just wanted to say that of all the threads I've read on this site, this one is particularly fascinating. Thanks to all of you who raised such interesting points that I had never even given much thought to, such as:

1. Lizzie's "go to the cemetery" remark. Odd indeed, and very indicative of the fact that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

2. The fact that Lizzie "yelled" up the stairs to Bridget, but then wanted someone to "go upstairs" and look for Abby. It never occurred to me that this never made any sense. If Lizzie were innocent, she would not have said, "I think I heard Abby come in." Or, at the very least, Lizzie should have amended the remark by adding, "No, Abby must not have come back yet, because if she had, she would have heard me yelling for Bridget." Since Lizzie asked, more than once, for someone to "go upstairs to find Abby", I am more convinced than ever that Lizzie was anxious for Abby's body to be discovered...for the "other shoe to drop", so to speak.

3. The fact that Lizzie never specified (and apparently, no one ever asked her) exactly when she thought she heard Abby come home. She couldn't have thought she heard Abby come home before her father came in, because she would have told her father, "I think I heard Abby come in a while ago." Bridget did not hear any such remark from Lizzie to Andrew. And she couldn't have thought she heard Abby come in after her father, because, according to Lizzie's own story, she left the house for the barn almost immediately after her father came home.

Possum, Nancy, Allen, twins, and all the rest of you certainly keep me thinking. As one of my fictional heroes, Hercule Poirot, would say, "You all know how to use the little gray cells."

[twinsrwe]

Where does the information come from that they lived in a high crime area?

Well, as I stated in my post, it is my understanding that the Bordens lived in a high crime area. Apparently, I am wrong in making this statement.

PossumPie, is correct, it is an anecdotal statement on my part, because I did not do any research on this particular subject. I assumed that since leitskrv had posted the statement, Fall River was a high crime area, (See subject titled: Did Lizzie have dome one to help her?) that it covered all areas of Fall River.

I apologize, since it appears that I assumed incorrectly.

Twinsrwe, I don't believe you are incorrect in believing that there was crime in the area. "High Crime Area" is relative. Compared to the area Maplecroft was in, the area the Borden's lived in may have had more petty thefts. When I first moved to where I live now, I found it odd that people went out on errands and left their doors unlocked. People left their cars running and went in to the gas station to pick up a pack of smokes. There was no crime out here. BUT I have lived in an area in "town" where you locked vehicles b/c kids would steal the CDs or Change out of your car, but not so high crime that there were any burglaries. It is relative. Like I said earlier, the fact that a doctor still chose to live on the street tells me it wasn't teeming with hooligans waiting to rob you blind. BUT as Aamartin said, they did keep that place locked up tight. I guess the question is did they do it b/c they were targeted multiple times already (probably by Lizzie though) or was it b/c of the reputation of the neighborhood? I don't know the answer. I do know that Mrs. Churchill, Mrs. Borden, Lizzie, Emma, and Bridget were not so uncomfortable in the neighborhood that they needed an escort when the went out walking around... "High crime" is like "it was a hot day" totally relative.

Thank you for your kind words, PossumPie; I appreciate it. Maybe instead of stating it was a "High Crime Area", I should have stated that ‘it was an area where Abby had already had several items taken from her home’.

[twinsrwe]

Hello, all. Just wanted to say that of all the threads I've read on this site, this one is particularly fascinating. Thanks to all of you who raised such interesting points that I had never even given much thought to, such as:

1. Lizzie's "go to the cemetery" remark. Odd indeed, and very indicative of the fact that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

2. The fact that Lizzie "yelled" up the stairs to Bridget, but then wanted someone to "go upstairs" and look for Abby. It never occurred to me that this never made any sense. If Lizzie were innocent, she would not have said, "I think I heard Abby come in." Or, at the very least, Lizzie should have amended the remark by adding, "No, Abby must not have come back yet, because if she had, she would have heard me yelling for Bridget." Since Lizzie asked, more than once, for someone to "go upstairs to find Abby", I am more convinced than ever that Lizzie was anxious for Abby's body to be discovered...for the "other shoe to drop", so to speak.

3. The fact that Lizzie never specified (and apparently, no one ever asked her) exactly when she thought she heard Abby come home. She couldn't have thought she heard Abby come home before her father came in, because she would have told her father, "I think I heard Abby come in a while ago." Bridget did not hear any such remark from Lizzie to Andrew. And she couldn't have thought she heard Abby come in after her father, because, according to Lizzie's own story, she left the house for the barn almost immediately after her father came home.

Possum, Nancy, Allen, twins, and all the rest of you certainly keep me thinking. As one of my fictional heroes, Hercule Poirot, would say, "You all know how to use the little gray cells."

Thanks Darrowfan; I agree this particular thread is one of the most fascinating and interesting threads within the forum! Like you, I am also finding insightful ways, which I have never thought of before, of looking at this case.

[Franz]

Hello, all. Just wanted to say that of all the threads I've read on this site, this one is particularly fascinating. Thanks to all of you who raised such interesting points that I had never even given much thought to, such as:

1. Lizzie's "go to the cemetery" remark. Odd indeed, and very indicative of the fact that Lizzie already knew Abby was dead.

2. The fact that Lizzie "yelled" up the stairs to Bridget, but then wanted someone to "go upstairs" and look for Abby. It never occurred to me that this never made any sense. If Lizzie were innocent, she would not have said, "I think I heard Abby come in." Or, at the very least, Lizzie should have amended the remark by adding, "No, Abby must not have come back yet, because if she had, she would have heard me yelling for Bridget." Since Lizzie asked, more than once, for someone to "go upstairs to find Abby", I am more convinced than ever that Lizzie was anxious for Abby's body to be discovered...for the "other shoe to drop", so to speak.

3. The fact that Lizzie never specified (and apparently, no one ever asked her) exactly when she thought she heard Abby come home. She couldn't have thought she heard Abby come home before her father came in, because she would have told her father, "I think I heard Abby come in a while ago." Bridget did not hear any such remark from Lizzie to Andrew. And she couldn't have thought she heard Abby come in after her father, because, according to Lizzie's own story, she left the house for the barn almost immediately after her father came home.

Possum, Nancy, Allen, twins, and all the rest of you certainly keep me thinking. As one of my fictional heroes, Hercule Poirot, would say, "You all know how to use the little gray cells."

Thanks Darrowfan; I agree this particular thread is one of the most fascinating and interesting threads within the forum! Like you, I am also finding insightful ways, which I have never thought of before, of looking at this case.

I agree, Darrowfan and twinsrwe, for whoever, "guiltists" or "innocentists", this issue, in my opinion, is one of the most crucial, even the most crucial point in the Borden case, even more than the note story. I have been thinking about it after months. Many thanks to every parpicipant of the discussion.

[dalcanton]

Lizzie stating that she thought she heard Abby come in always raised a red flag for me. Let’s say Lizzie was innocent & she did think she heard “someone” come in. Why would she automatically assume it was Abby? It very well could’ve been John Morse coming back early & going up to the guest room where he stayed the night before. Wouldn’t it make more sense for John to go directly upstairs to that room instead of Abby? Also, regardless of who might have come in, wouldn’t they have seen the butchered corpse of Andrew lying in the sitting room, even peripherally?

[Allen]

That is a good point to raise about how Lizzie knew it was Abby. I am not saying that I believe for one second that Lizzie thought she heard Abby come in, because I don't believe it at all. But if someone did come in it would have to be someone with a key. I don't think John Morse had one. And the screen door on the side of the house was kept hooked.

The point about not seeing Andrew laying there is excellent and one I've brought up also. Anyone that came in would have seen Andrew lying there. It would have been one of the first things that greeted them.

[PossumPie]

When Father returned, Bridget had to make a production of letting him in, one of the three locks on the door needed to be opened from the INSIDE...How could Mrs. Borden have gotten in without Lizzie or Bridget knowing? What am I missing?

[Allen]

I was making my post in answer to a question that had been asked by dalcanton. I actually thought it was a good question. Why could Lizzie think it was Abby she heard and not anyone else? Because the doors were locked and someone with a key would be the only one who could get in. This is a fact. I'm also sure that Abby and Andrew had come and gone on many occasions before without having to be let into their own home. For some reason Andrew had to be let in that day. My guess is because the locks were not left as they usually were that day. It also wasn't the first time Bridget let someone in the front door. She wasn't in the habit of doing it, but she had done it before. That was the first time she had this kind of trouble letting someone in. I think all of the locks were left locked when that wasn't usually the case. Otherwise Andrew would have just rung the bell to be let inside instead of trying his key thinking he could get in. Lizzie had no problems letting herself in just the night before without anyone coming to let her in. But honestly I don't think Lizzie heard Abby come in. I don't think there was a possible time when Lizzie could have heard Abby come in that she would not have seen Andrew lying there on the couch dead. And if Lizzie had thought she heard Abby come in she did not look for her after she found Andrew. Not to see if she was alright, or to alert her to what had happened. Abby also would have heard any commotion had she been in the house. So I do not believe for one second Lizzie heard her come home.

[NancyDrew]

Andrew had just been killed. Lizzie might have been thinking "I'll say I thought I heard Mrs. Borden come in" and if she were asked, she would say it was BEFORE she found her father killed...but even that has a big giant hole in it, since, when Andrew came home, she told him that Abby was out.

Why didn't the prosecution put 2 and 2 together like this? It seems so OBVIOUS to us now that Lizzie was lying through her teeth, making up fictitious statements as she went along. I've asked this before, but it seems if the prosecution had studied her actions and statements that day more closely, and presented it to the jury as such, there would have been more than enough circumstantial evidence to convict her.

Okay, a question, and one I hadn't thought about before...why DID Andrew have to be let in that day? What possible reason was there to lock the house up that tight, so that even the owner himself couldn't get in?

Is it possible Lizzie did it? Locked the door from the inside...so that if her father came home early, he'd have to be let in by someone; either Lizzie herself, or Bridgette....is THAT why Lizzie was giggling? Was it really the "P'shaw" that Bridgette uttered, or was it that Lizzie's plan was coming together perfectly. Mrs. Borden was laying butchered on the guest room floor, and there was no possibility that either Andrew or Uncle John could have interrupted her, because they couldn't get in the house.

[Allen]

I believe she might have locked all the locks on purpose. This is why I said I don't think the locks were left as they usually were. I think they were all left locked which was not the norm. Andrew obviously thought he could get in with his key. Bridget had never had trouble opening the door before with all of the locks being done up like that. And Lizzie got in the night before without being let in by anyone. I think if she locked the door nobody was getting in to unexpectedly find the body or to interrupt her.

[PossumPie]

Q. And during that time, so far as you know, the front door was locked?
A. So far as I know.
Q. And never was unlocked at all?
A. I don't think it was.
Q. Even after your father came home, it was locked up again?
A. I don't know whether she locked it up again after that or not.
Q. It locks itself?
A. The spring lock opens.
Q. It fastens it so it cannot be opened from the outside?
A. Sometimes you can press it open.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose the spring lock was left so it could be pressed open from the
outside?
A. I have no reason to suppose so.
Q. Nothing about the lock was changed before the people came?
A. Nothing that I know of.

[Allen]

It was said that it was Lizzie's habit to unlock the door in the mornings and leave it only on the spring lock. Maybe we should describe the locks on the door. There were three locks on the front door and three locks on the back door. A spring lock, a dead bolt, and a simple lock that was also opened with the use of a key were on the front door. The back door had two spring locks and a dead bolt. A spring lock doesn't have to be manually bolted and locked like a dead bolt. A spring lock bolts the door closed automatically via a spring mechanism. It takes a key to open it. It can be opened from the outside with a key. You can open it from the inside by turning a little knob. If the key is turned in the lock then you have to open it with the key. Turning the little knob won't work. The spring is locked in the closed position. I think this is where the confusion arose with Bridget opening the door. There were two spring locks on the back door that Bridget let herself in so she was familiar with how they worked. This would indicate the trouble with opening the door is because it was found unexpectedly locked. I have a spring lock on my kitchen door. If the spring is damaged and doesn't work properly the door might possibly be pushed open because it doesn't latch properly. Mr. Morse also stated that he found upon examination that if the door was not slammed hard the spring would not always catch. But the dead bolt was also locked that day.



Trial Opening statement of the Commonwealth by William Moody page 68:

...When Mr. Borden came home, contrary to the usual custom of the house, Bridget found the door locked with the key and bolted, as well as secured by the spring lock.

Trial testimony of Bridget Sullivan page 234:

Q. When you got to the front door what did you find the condition of the locks there?
A. I went to open it, caught it by the knob, the spring lock, as usual, and it was locked. I unbolted it and it was locked with the key.

page 235:

Q. I am reminded that one question is unanswered. How many locks on the front door were locked as you went there, --- locks and bolts, I mean.
A. There was a bolt, there was a spring lock, and there was a key.

[Curryong]

This is an interesting thread about the locks AND Franz's theory too!

[irina]

There are some other thoughts to throw into the mix. Through testimony we see that Lizzie and Emma had certain housekeeping chores but it also comes out that Emma did most of them. Emma and Lizzie were in charge of the front door. Want to bet Emma was diligent in unlocking the door and Lizzie less so? Emma was gone. Lizzie had been gone. Who took care of the door when both were absent? I'd bet Lizzie made sure the door was locked when she came home the night before and she simply didn't unlock in the morning because she wasn't going out. Even if she planned to do this responsibility that day I don't see that there was any time table. I don't recall for example that Lizzie or Emma always unlocked the door by ---------- because ---------. I think it got done when it got done.

[MysteryReader]

What a strange thing! Bridget or Lizzie could call "Mrs. Borden!" up the back steps then up the front steps, and Mrs. Borden would have heard. WHY DID LIZZIE suggest Bridget find Mrs. Borden by going upstairs? That wouldn't have been the first thought I had, just holler up, which is what Lizzie JUST DID to get Bridget. This verbal exchange was the first between anyone and Lizzie after the murder of her father moments before. In it Lizzie 1. Tries to get Bridget out of the house to a doctors, and a neighbors. 2. Lizzie tries to get Bridget to go upstairs where she would have found Mrs. Borden's body. NOW...

A little later, Lizzie AGAIN says "go upstairs and find Mrs. Borden" Don't you think with all that noise that Mrs. Borden would have come down? It almost certainly means that Lizzie KNEW Mrs. Borden was dead upstairs. I would have just assumed that if she hadn't come down that she was still out tending a sick friend. This struck me like a proverbial brick when I re-read it. It is so subtle, but if you really think about it...this is huge. We all have thought of Lizzie's second attempt to get Bridget to go upstairs and find Mrs. Borden, but to me, this first attempt IMMEDIATELY after the discovery of Mr. Borden's body is much more telling.[/quote]



The only plausible explanation of why she wanted Bridget to go upstairs would be if she suspected that Abby was sick- now, having typed that, she could have been fully aware that Abby lay upstairs dead. If you will remember, Abby went to see the doctor the night before (?) she was killed. Lizzie could have remembered that and figured that "if" she (Abby) did come home and didn't come down with all of the noise, that she was feeling sick.

[Curryong]

Abby had rushed over to Dr Bowen's early on the Wednesday morning. By Thursday she was feeling somewhat better as she had a full breakfast. Not that Lizzie would have known that, as she was then still in bed.

I agree. If Lizzie had believed her stepmother was in the house the most natural thing to do straight after her father's death would have been to yell "Mrs Borden, are you there! Please come downstairs." Also, later, Lizzie said twice "I am sure (almost certain) I heard her come in!" in an effort to get someone--Bridget, Alice, Mrs Churchill,-- to go look for her.

Where would Abby have come in from, though? The front door was triple-locked and Abby had told Phoebe Bowen a few days before that her key had been taken. It couldn't have been through the back door as she would have seen Andrew in the sitting room, alive or later dead, or Bridget and Lizzie in the dining room or Bridget washing the inside windows. Unless she had, so conveniently, come in while Bridget was upstairs in her room, Lizzie was supposedly in the barn and Andrew was being murdered!

If she had been alive in the house she certainly would have come downstairs after Mrs Churchill and Alice and Dr Bowen arrived, unless she was stone deaf. Actually, she was stone dead and had been since about 9:30am. Lizzie wanted someone to find her first victim and get the show on the road in my opinion.

It's my theory that she sent Bridget out of the house immediately because she wanted to have a look at the crime scene to either get something and burn it quickly, or make sure there was nothing lying about that would incriminate her. She then quickly went to the side door where she was seen by Mrs Churchill.

[debbiediablo]

A
If she had been alive in the house she certainly would have come downstairs after Mrs Churchill and Alice and Dr Bowen arrived, unless she was stone deaf. Actually, she was stone dead....

[Curryong]

Lizzie never really gave an explanation of why she didn't unlock the front door that day, did she? The previous day I suppose Abby got her to unlock it so she could rush across the road to Dr Bowen's. That may have been why Lizzie was downstairs, momentarily glimpsed by Dr Bowen later fleeing upstairs. Unusual activity for her so early in the morning.

Dr Bowen was still rather perturbed about that 'poisoning' episode a few days later, as one of the witness statements records him asking a detective (rather anxiously I would think) whether any other cause had been found for Abby and Andrew's deaths (apart from being butchered with a hatchet.) If the milk and/or bread had been found to be tainted it wouldn't have gone well for him in the witness box that he had so lightly dismissed Abby's concerns and sent her home with cod liver oil, even if he had second thoughts a bit later and tried to invade Andrew's home Dr Handy style! The subsequent publicity would have been rather harmful.