The "Key to the case" Locks and keys everywhere

[PossumPie]

I thought I'd move our discussion of keys and locks to a separate thread, it warrants it.

I've listed the testimonies regarding the locks and keys below. I tried to make it complete. The front door had NOT been opened at all the morning of the murders before Mr. Borden came home. Everyone who left the house that morning left by the side or back door. The milk was delivered to the back door. The 'night lock' on the front door needed a key to be opened from the inside, and could NOT be opened from the outside. It was Lizzie's responsibility (according to her testimony) that she do the final "lock-up" at night. Once this 3rd lock was engaged, a key must be used inside to open it. Both Lizzie and Bridget testify that when Mr. Borden returned, he had his key, but still couldn't get in because the "night lock" had not been unlocked from the night before. Anyone going out of the front door that morning would have had to unlock the "night lock" and would have LEFT IT UNLOCKED. This disproves Franz's theory of someone sneaking in the front door. (To be fair, his theory could still work if the people came to the side door) If Mrs. Borden heard the bell, she would have had to get the "night lock key" to unlock that lock from the inside before she went outside to meet Morse's "note accomplice". If this happened, she WOULD NOT have re-locked the night lock. It was always left unlocked all day, and the spring lock and knob lock were used to secure the house. BUT Bridget an hour and a half later found the 'night lock' still locked. No one had unlocked it yet.

Lizzie said she didn't unlock the night lock that morning, Bridget said she didn't unlock it, Mr. Borden didn't b/c he couldn't have from outside, The only person who could have was Mrs. Borden, but WHY would she go to the trouble of re-locking it when they never relocked it during the day?


Sometimes we need to place ALL OF THE EVIDENCE out together to see the big picture.


Front door Locks:

Inquest
Lizzie
pp54+
A. I spent the evening with Miss Russell.
Q. As near as you can remember, when did you return?
A. About nine o'clock at night.
Q. The family had then retired?
A. I don't know whether they had or not. I went right to my room; I don't remember.
Q. You did not look to see?
A. No sir.
Q. Which door did you come in at?
A. The front door.
Q. Did you lock it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. For the night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And went right up stairs to your room?
A. Yes sir.
..........

Q. Did you have a night key?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How did you know it was right to lock the front door?
A. That was always my business.
Q. How many locks did you fasten?
A. The spring locks itself, and there is a key to turn, and you manipulate the bolt.
Q. You manipulated all those?
A. I used them all.
Q. Then you went to bed?
A. Yes, directly.
.........

p61
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key.
Q. Where was Maggie when the bell rang?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room up stairs.
.........

68
Q. After he went out, and before he came back; a large portion of the time after your father went out, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were the only person in the house?
A. So far as I know, I was.
Q. And during that time, so far as you know, the front door was locked?
A. So far as I know.
Q. And never was unlocked at all?
A. I don't think it was.
Q. Even after your father came home, it was locked up again?
A. I don't know whether she locked it up again after that or not.
Q. It locks itself?
A. The spring lock opens.
Q. It fastens it so it cannot be opened from the outside?
A. Sometimes you can press it open.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose the spring lock was left so it could be pressed open from the outside?
A. I have no reason to suppose so.
Q. Nothing about the lock was changed before the people came?
A. Nothing that I know of.
________

Inquest
Emma
114
Q. I dont think I will trouble you with that question any how. Did you use to keep the back door, the screen door, fastened, was that the habit of the household?
A. Intended to when they were in.
Q. How about the front door?
A. We locked that with a spring lock.
Q. Did the spring lock work?
A. Once in a while we would find it did not, but very seldom.
Q. The few times it did not work, did it not come from the fact the door was not slammed too enough to catch the spring?
A. I suppose that must have been it.
Q. You had not had it repaired?
A. No Sir.
Q. It is in the same condition now it had been?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You have lived there since the tragedy; you are still living in the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It works as well now as it did; there is no difference in it?
A. So far as I know, it does.
Q. Was it the habit to keep the front door locked with the spring lock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How about the bolt and the big lock?
A. We used those only when we went to bed.
Q. When did they get unlocked in the morning?
A. Usually when my sister or I came down stairs, one or the other unlocked them.
______

Inquest
Morse
102
Q. Which door did you go out of?
A. The back door.
Q. Was it fastened when you went out?
A. Yes, and Mr. Borden opened it and let me out, and hooked it himself.
Q. After you got out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it the habit to keep that hooked?
A. Always.
Q. And the front door?
A. Always keep it fastened; they have been very cautious, always have been, about the doors.
........

Preliminary Hearing
Morse
252
Q. Did you hear any sounds from Lizzie’s room before you went away, and while you were sitting in the sitting room?
A. I do not know that I did.

Q. You did not notice any?
A. No Sir.

Q. You do not know whether she had got up or not?
A. I do not.

Q. You told Mr. Knowlton that that front door of the house fastened with a spring lock.
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was there any other lock or bolt upon it?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What?
A. There was a common lock that is in most of doors, and then there was a bolt.

Q. Beside the spring lock?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Do you know whether those locks or bolts were used at all?
A. They have been used nights since I have been there. I do not know what they did with them before. I suppose they were used before.

Q. At night they not only had the spring lock, but used the other lock and the bolt?
A. They did when I was there; I do not know what they did before; when I am not there I do not know.

Q. Before you went away that morning, had anybody gone out the front door to your knowledge?
A. No Sir.

Q. Since the murder have you seen that front door tried to see whether it would close without springing the lock, or not?
A. I have.

Q. How did it act?
A. Sometimes it would open without turning.

Q. Was that when it was not slammed too hard, that it would shut without springing the lock?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Then it could be opened by anybody without touching the lock?
A. Sometimes it could; and sometimes it could not
.........

Preliminary Hearing
Bridget
19+
A. I heard him at the door. I cannot tell did he ring the bell or not, but I heard a person at the door trying to get in; and I let him in.

Q. What was it you heard exactly?
A. Somebody trying to unlock the door.

Q. You was then in the sitting room washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What did you do?
A. I went and let him in.

Q. It was Mr. Borden was it?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Have you any idea what time that was?
A. It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.

Q. What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A. The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.

Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.

Q. A spring lock?
A. Yes Sir. He had a key.

Q. He unlocked that from the outside?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that spring lock set to lock the door up when it was shut?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Up to the time you let Mr. Borden in, had you seen Miss Lizzie?
A. She was up stairs at the time I let him in.

Q. Where up stairs?
A. She might be in the hall, for I heard her laugh.

Q. Up the back or front stairs?
A. The front stairs.

Q. At the time you let Mr. Borden in?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that the first you had heard or seen of her since you spoke to her at the back door?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You had not seen her or Mrs. Borden during the intermediate time?
A. No Sir.

Q. What was the occasion of her laugh?
A. I got puzzled on the door, I said something, and she laughed at it; I supposed that must make her laugh, I dont know.

Q. She laughed when you said something?
A. Yes Sir. I did not expect the door was locked. I went to open it. I was puzzled; I went to unlock it twice.

Q. What was it you said, if it is not too bad to repeat?
A. No. I did not say much.

Q. Some exclamation you made when you had trouble with the door?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that the time she laughed?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did she laugh out loud?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Say anything?
A. No Sir.

Q. Did you see her then?
A. No Sir.
........


Trial
Bridget
Q. What was the occasion of going to the front door on Wednesday?
A. I let Dr. Bowen in.

Q. Was that in the morning or afternoon?
A. It was in the morning.

Q. Did you go to the door again on Wednesday after you let Dr. Bowen in?
A. No, sir.

Q. How was the door when you let Dr. Bowen in on Wednesday?
A. The spring lock had the key in it.

Q. Sprung locked, was it?
A. Yes.

Q. Did you say you had no occasion to go to that door again on that day?
A. No, sir.
........
Q. Did you hear the ringing of any bell? [THURSDAY]
A. No sir, I don't remember to hear any bell.

Q. When you got to the front door what did you find the condition of the locks there?
A. I went to open it, caught it by the knob, the spring lock, as usual, and it was locked. I unbolted it and it was locked with a key.

Q. So that there were three locks?
A. Yes sir.

Q. What did you do with reference to the lock with the key?
A. I unlocked it. As I unlocked it I said, "Oh pshaw," and Miss Lizzie laughed, up stairs. -- Her father was out there on the door step. She was up stairs.

Q. Up stairs; could you tell whereabouts up stairs she was when she laughed?
A. Well, she must be either in the entry or in the top of the stairs, I can't tell which.

Q. Was there any talk passed between you and Mr. Borden as he came to the door?
A. No sir, not a word.

Q. I am reminded that one question was unanswered. How many locks on the front door were unlocked as you went there, -- locks and bolts, I mean?
A. There was a bolt and there was a spring lock, and there was a key.

Q. And those were all locked?
A. Yes sir.

Q. During the morning hours, usually, was that door kept locked otherwise than by the spring lock?
A. I don't know anything about the door; I didn't have nothing to do to it.

Q. After you had let Mr. Borden in, where did you go?
A. I went on washing my window.

.......

Q. Were you in the habit of tending the bell calls at the front door?
A. Yes sir, when Mr. Borden or Mrs. Borden was not at home, but when they were in the sitting-room I did not go to the door.

Q. At any time when you answered the bell call did you find the door locked in the way you described this morning?

MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object to that.

MR. MOODY. It has been suggested that it may appear hereafter on the testimony of Miss Lizzie Borden that it was her habit to unlock the door in the morning and leave the door on the spring lock only.

MR. ROBINSON. I suppose that is not now before the Court.

MASON, C.J. We exclude it.

MR. MOODY. The witness is yours unless something
has escaped us. I tried
very hard that there should be nothing.

[Allen]

To make one point clear, Lizzie did not claim it had been that morning of the murders that the man came to talk to her father about letting the store. I believe as I said in the other thread that Lizzie left the front door locked in this manner on purpose. The side screen door was left hooked when Andrew came home. As we all know you cannot open a hook lock with a key. And nobody could open the front door either because too many locks were left in place. Bridget knew how to operate a spring lock there were two on the side door. This is how Bridget entered the house. So it wasn't confusion about how to open the locks it was the confusion that the door was still locked with the dead bolt. Also if Andrew had turned the key in the spring lock she might have been trying to open it from the inside with the little knob and it didn't work. There were no locks on that front door that could not be opened from the outside with a key. If you have the key that is. Dead bolts can also be opened from the outside with a key. But if you aren't expecting it be locked you might not use that key or have it on you. Which is also why Bridget might have made mention about Andrew forgetting his key. I think if Lizzie did leave the door locked, this was another slip up on her part because that left no room for anyone to get in. Why would she say she heard someone come in? I think she didn't think about that until afterward. This is why she denied ever saying to anyone that she thought she heard Abby come in.

Franz's theory about Abby being let in the door has never made sense to me for a variety of reasons. If I started listing all of those I'd have to make a separate thread.

[PossumPie]

To make one point clear, Lizzie did not claim it had been that morning of the murders that the man came to talk to her father about letting the store. I believe as I said in the other thread that Lizzie left the front door locked in this manner on purpose. The side screen door was left hooked when Andrew came home. As we all know you cannot open a hook lock with a key. And nobody could open the front door either because too many locks were left in place. Bridget knew how to operate a spring lock there were two on the side door. This is how Bridget entered the house. So it wasn't confusion about how to open the locks it was the confusion that the door was still locked with the dead bolt. Also if Andrew had turned the key in the spring lock she might have been trying to open it from the inside with the little knob and it didn't work. There were no locks on that front door that could not be opened from the outside with a key. If you have the key that is. Dead bolts can also be opened from the outside with a key. But if you aren't expecting it be locked you might not use that key or have it on you. Which is also why Bridget might have made mention about Andrew forgetting his key. I think if Lizzie did leave the door locked, this was another slip up on her part because that left no room for anyone to get in. Why would she say she heard someone come in? I think she didn't think about that until afterward. This is why she denied ever saying to anyone that she thought she heard Abby come in.

Franz's theory about Abby being let in the door has never made sense to me for a variety of reasons. If I started listing all of those I'd have to make a separate thread.

On page 2, in Assistant Marshal Fleet's notes dated August 4th, he quotes Lizzie as saying:

"... A man came here this morning about 9 o'clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away."

[Allen]

That would make no sense because everyone was still at home at 9:00 on the day of the murders. We wouldn't need any information about locks to know this would be a lie. It stands to reason everyone would have heard this exchange at the front door that morning. Including John Morse and Bridget. No man came that morning. According to Lizzie's testimony the man had not come that morning. But I think there never was such a man in the first place.

Inquest Lizzie Borden:

Q. Do you know of anybody your father was on bad terms with?
A. There was a man who came there that he had trouble with. I don't know who the man was.

Q. When?
A. I cannot locate the time exactly. It was within two weeks. This I don't know the date or day of the month.

Q. Tell all that you heard.
A. I did not see anything. I heard the bell ring, and father went to the door and let him in. I did not hear anything for some time, except just the voices; then I heard the man say, "I would like to have that place, I would like to have that store. Father says I am not willing to let your business go there. " And the man said, " I thought with your reputation for liking money, you would let your store for anything." Father said, "You are mistaken." Then they talked a while, and then their voices were louder, and I heard father order him out, and went to the front door with him."

[Allen]

Also from page 2 of the witness statements:

“I was ironing handkerchiefs in the Dining room, which I left and went in the barn, up stairs, and remained there for half an hour. Bridget had gone up stairs, and when I came back I found father dead on the lounge, and went to the back stairs and called Bridget (servant) down stairs. Told her that some one had killed father, and told her to get Dr. Bowen.” “Did you see anyone around here?” “No, I had not seen anyone in the house or yard.” “Who is this Mr. Morse?” He is my Uncle; he came here last night, and slept here, but went away before nine o’clock A. M. and did not get back until after the murder; he could not know anything about the murder.” “Have you any idea who could have done this?” “No, I do not know that my father had bad trouble with anyone. But about two weeks ago a man called, and they had some talk about a shop; and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose. The man talked as though he was angry; did not know who he was, did not see him, could not tell all that he said. A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”

[Franz]

PossumPie and Allen,

A very little detail has been always making me think: that morning Bridget found the front door unusually difficult to be unlokced...

[PossumPie]

Also from page 2 of the witness statements:

“I was ironing handkerchiefs in the Dining room, which I left and went in the barn, up stairs, and remained there for half an hour. Bridget had gone up stairs, and when I came back I found father dead on the lounge, and went to the back stairs and called Bridget (servant) down stairs. Told her that some one had killed father, and told her to get Dr. Bowen.” “Did you see anyone around here?” “No, I had not seen anyone in the house or yard.” “Who is this Mr. Morse?” He is my Uncle; he came here last night, and slept here, but went away before nine o’clock A. M. and did not get back until after the murder; he could not know anything about the murder.” “Have you any idea who could have done this?” “No, I do not know that my father had bad trouble with anyone. But about two weeks ago a man called, and they had some talk about a shop; and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose. The man talked as though he was angry; did not know who he was, did not see him, could not tell all that he said. A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”

But about two weeks ago a man called, and they had some talk about a shop; and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose. The man talked as though he was angry; did not know who he was, did not see him, could not tell all that he said. A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think ...

Allen, you're saying she didn't mean "A man came here this morning about 9 o' clock?

[Allen]

Yes, I am saying she referred to a man coming there on this morning, about two weeks ago. I do not think even Lizzie would be foolish enough to try to say that a man came about 9:00 am on a morning when John Morse and Bridget could testify that nobody had been there. If you notice it all runs together as one story. The man came there about two weeks ago. And this morning, about two weeks ago, they had words at the front door. There is no break in the story. She doesn't state the first man left, and then a second man came this morning. And in the inquest she makes no mention of a man coming there that morning. Only the man who had been there sometime in the last two weeks. Putting the two together, I'd say yes, she referred to the same one man in both instances.

[Allen]

Further into the witness statements she is asked again about the man calling, and again states it was about two weeks ago.

Witness statements page 5:

Miss Lizzie. “Saw father, when he returned from the P.O. He sat down to read the paper. I went out to the barn, remained twenty minutes; returned, and found him dead. Saw no one in the yard when going to or returning from the barn. Heard no noise whatever while in the barn.” (To a question.) Not even The opening or closing of the screen door. “Why not, you were but a short distance, and would hear the noise so made?” “I was upstairs in the loft.” “What motive?” “I dont know.” “Was it robbery?” “I think not, for every thing appears all right, even to the watch in father’s pocket, and ring on his finger.” “Have you any reason, no matter how slight, to suspect anybody?” “N-n-no, I have not.” “why hesitate”? “Well, a few weeks ago father had angry words with a man about something”. “What was it?” “I did not know at the time, but they were both very angry at the time; and the stranger went away.” “Did you see him at all?” “No sir they were in another room; but from the tone of their voices, I knew things were not pleasant between them.” “Did father say anything about him, or his visit?” “No sir. About two weeks ago he called again. They had a very animated conversation, during which they got very angry again. I heard father say “no sir, I will not let my store for any such business.” Just before they separated, I heard father say “well, when you are in town again, come up, and I will let you know
about it.”

During this conversation with Lizzie, I cautioned her about what she might say at the present time. I said owing to the atrociousness of the crime, perhaps you are not in a mental condition to give as clear a statement of the facts as you will be tomorrow; and also by that time you may be able to tell more about the man who wished to hire the store. You may recollect of having heard his name, or of seeing him, and thereby be enabled to give a description of him, or may recollect of something said about him by your father; so I say it may be better for you not to submit to an interview until tomorrow, when you may be better able to recite what you know of the circumstances.” To this she replied “no, I think I can tell you all I know now, just as well as at any other time.” This conversation took place in Lizzie’s room, on the second floor, in the presence of Miss Alice Russell, who sat in a chair by the door which
leads to the front hall, by which I entered Lizzie’s room.

[PossumPie]

Yes, I am saying she referred to a man coming there on this morning, about two weeks ago. I do not think even Lizzie would be foolish enough to try to say that a man came about 9:00 am on a morning when John Morse and Bridget could testify that nobody had been there. If you notice it all runs together as one story. The man came there about two weeks ago. And this morning, about two weeks ago, they had words at the front door. There is no break in the story. She doesn't state the first man left, and then a second man came this morning. And in the inquest she makes no mention of a man coming there that morning. Only the man who had been there sometime in the last two weeks. Putting the two together, I'd say yes, she referred to the same one man in both instances.

Then I misunderstood the statement...GOOD, that just reinforces what I was saying in this thread. NO ONE unlocked the door from it's night lock configuration until Mr. Borden returned. Both Lizzie and Bridget knew the night lock was still locked, and there is just no conceivable reason Mrs. Borden would unlock, then relock the night lock with a key. Lizzie and Bridget both say it was still locked, Mr. Borden had his key yet couldn't get in b/c the night lock was still locked. Bridget heard fumbling, thought at first that he had forgotten his key, tried to let him in and discovered the night lock still locked, said "Pshaw" and let him in.

And Allen, Franz's theory has so many inconceivable coincidences that I also cannot conceive of it ever working. It's just that he argues with me about Mrs. Borden opening the front door, walking down the porch, out onto the sidewalk while in broad daylight someone sneaks behind her up the steps, in the door and upstairs...I can't get him to see the impossibility of this, so I thought if I show him that NO ONE had even opened the locks on the front door from the night before, perhaps he would see the impossibility.

[Allen]

I think I have some idea of the argument Franz would use about the locks on the front door. I don't think he'd give up that easily. But since he came up with this theory, knowing all of the facts of the case, I don't think he sees the impossibilities.

[NancyDrew]

So it was Lizzie's job to lock up the house at night, making sure the inside lock was secure.

When asked it that same lock had been unbolted the next morning, Lizzie, during the inquest, defers to Bridgette ("I don't know; you'll have to ask Maggie.")

Why didn't the prosecution jump on this? Why didn't this ask Lizzie "Wasn't it YOUR job to unlock the door in the morning? Why didn't you?"

Or why didn't they ask Bridgette: "Were you surprised to find the night lock was still on?...Isn't it the habit of the household that Lizzie unlocks it when she arises in the morning?"

[Allen]

The prosecution could not ask Lizzie any questions during the trial. She did not take the stand to testify. But they did try to establish this fact.

[Allen]

At the trial they did try to establish that it was Lizzie's job to unlock the door in the mornings. Mr. Moody stated as much in his opening statement, and the other witnesses who would know anything about it were asked who usually unlocked the door in the mornings.

Trial testimony of Emma Borden page 1565:

Q. Was the front door usually kept locked at night?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And bolted?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who attended to that if you know, usually?
A. The one that was retiring last.

Q. Whether they slept upstairs or down? You mean whether it was Mr. or Mrs. Borden or the girl?
A. Oh, my sister or I.

Q. One of you usually attended to that duty?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whichever one was last to bed?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And who usually unlocked it in the morning?
A. Usually my sister.

Q. Miss Lizzie?
A. Yes, sir.

[leitskev]

Excellent work. Obviously Bridget was surprised to find the inside key lock still locked, and she fumbled with it because she was unused to it. So something changed the routine that day. For some reason, no one unlocked the key lock.

Not sure what it means. Any change in routine suggests a member of the household was up to something...which is evidence not in Lizzie's favor.

However, I have no idea what the reason would be for not unlocking the door. Did Lizzie want to leave it locked while she killed Abby in case her father came home? And then afterwards forget to unlock it? Emma says Lizzie usually unlocked the door in the morning, but maybe often it was Abby, who was now dead.

Good post, thanks for copying the witness stuff.

[PossumPie]

Excellent work. Obviously Bridget was surprised to find the inside key lock still locked, and she fumbled with it because she was unused to it. So something changed the routine that day. For some reason, no one unlocked the key lock.

Not sure what it means. Any change in routine suggests a member of the household was up to something...which is evidence not in Lizzie's favor.

However, I have no idea what the reason would be for not unlocking the door. Did Lizzie want to leave it locked while she killed Abby in case her father came home? And then afterwards forget to unlock it? Emma says Lizzie usually unlocked the door in the morning, but maybe often it was Abby, who was now dead.

Good post, thanks for copying the witness stuff.

You're welcome. Seeing all of the lock information in one place did help put it in perspective. I believe from this that the front door had not been open, or even unlocked since night UNTIL Mr. Borden returned. I won't go so far as to say Lizzie did it on purpose, but it does seem to indicate that if someone sneaked in from outside, it was from the side door, or back door, and that would have been virtually impossible b/c Bridget was washing windows, and Lizzie was all around in the kitchen and downstairs rooms. In other words, it makes an outsider more unlikely, and Bridget or Lizzie more likely.

[leitskev]

Actually, I think it always made more sense that an outsider would have had to come through the side or the back door. I always assumed the front was locked. What was new to me in your post was that there seems to have been a very distinct change in routine. Both Mr. Borden and Bridget were very unused to that door being locked with the inside key lock. Any time there is a change in routine you have to wonder why. But I always assumed the door was locked in some manner.

An intruder getting by Bridget would be easy. Any time she was on the other side of the house she would have been blind to the side door. In fact, she spent time on the other side talking to a neighbor's servant.

The hard part would be for an intruder to get by Lizzie unseen. And intruder would have to know who was in the house and where they were, and you'd have to get pretty lucky to sneak in while Bridget was on the other side, somehow not be seen by Lizzie, and then kill Abby without her uttering a sound. For an intruder to do that, he would likely need assistance from either Lizzie or Bridgett.

It's difficult to conjecture an intruder without a shred of evidence. But the lack of a murder weapon means it can't be ruled out. If there was an intruder, it seems likely to me that he worked with Lizzie. Why not Bridgett instead? That possibility exists, but Lizzie's testimony supports Bridgett being in her room, while no one can support Lizzie's contention of being in the barn.

It's the missing weapon that always haunts me. I still think the most likely explanation is that Lizzie committed the crimes, and someone later, perhaps Bowen, smuggled it out for her. As her doctor, he spent time alone with her, and this was above suspicion by the others because he was her doctor. She could have talked him into it then and given him the weapon.

Let me speculate wildly a moment, and I'm happy to have this shot down: how do we know Abby's visit to Bowen was about sickness and fear of being poisoned? Is his testimony the only source we have on that? Let's say there was something improper between Lizzie and Bowen...couldn't that have been the real reason for the visit? And might that have been the reason Bowen later tried to see Andrew? If there was not something improper between Lizzie and Bowen, could it have been someone close to Bowen or in his employ?

I'm not pushing that theory, just floating it. Lizzie did discuss her family being sick with Alice the night before, I think. Maybe there was something about sickness in Morse's or Bridgett's testimony, I don't know.

I'm floating this as a way to connect dots: Bowen accompanying Lizzie to church, Abby's visit to Bowen, Bowen's visit and rejection by Andrew, the missing murder weapon, the time spent alone with Lizzie after the murder, the burned notes, the strange behavior after sending the telegram to Emma, the anxious questioning a couple days later about new information.

[PossumPie]

Actually, I think it always made more sense that an outsider would have had to come through the side or the back door. I always assumed the front was locked. What was new to me in your post was that there seems to have been a very distinct change in routine. Both Mr. Borden and Bridget were very unused to that door being locked with the inside key lock. Any time there is a change in routine you have to wonder why. But I always assumed the door was locked in some manner.

An intruder getting by Bridget would be easy. Any time she was on the other side of the house she would have been blind to the side door. In fact, she spent time on the other side talking to a neighbor's servant.

The hard part would be for an intruder to get by Lizzie unseen. And intruder would have to know who was in the house and where they were, and you'd have to get pretty lucky to sneak in while Bridget was on the other side, somehow not be seen by Lizzie, and then kill Abby without her uttering a sound. For an intruder to do that, he would likely need assistance from either Lizzie or Bridgett.

It's difficult to conjecture an intruder without a shred of evidence. But the lack of a murder weapon means it can't be ruled out. If there was an intruder, it seems likely to me that he worked with Lizzie. Why not Bridgett instead? That possibility exists, but Lizzie's testimony supports Bridgett being in her room, while no one can support Lizzie's contention of being in the barn.

It's the missing weapon that always haunts me. I still think the most likely explanation is that Lizzie committed the crimes, and someone later, perhaps Bowen, smuggled it out for her. As her doctor, he spent time alone with her, and this was above suspicion by the others because he was her doctor. She could have talked him into it then and given him the weapon.

Let me speculate wildly a moment, and I'm happy to have this shot down: how do we know Abby's visit to Bowen was about sickness and fear of being poisoned? Is his testimony the only source we have on that? Let's say there was something improper between Lizzie and Bowen...couldn't that have been the real reason for the visit? And might that have been the reason Bowen later tried to see Andrew? If there was not something improper between Lizzie and Bowen, could it have been someone close to Bowen or in his employ?

I'm not pushing that theory, just floating it. Lizzie did discuss her family being sick with Alice the night before, I think. Maybe there was something about sickness in Morse's or Bridgett's testimony, I don't know.

I'm floating this as a way to connect dots: Bowen accompanying Lizzie to church, Abby's visit to Bowen, Bowen's visit and rejection by Andrew, the missing murder weapon, the time spent alone with Lizzie after the murder, the burned notes, the strange behavior after sending the telegram to Emma, the anxious questioning a couple days later about new information.

You bring up some excellent points. It is superficial and naive to think that a stranger would sneak into an OCCUPIED house in broad daylight and just "hope" no one would see them going in, while inside, or coming out...
WHAT IF someone saw the killer sneaking in, and alerted the police. The killer would be sitting for an hour and a half upstairs waiting for Mr. Borden, and the cops could just walk up and arrest him.. NO! If someone sneaked in, they would have to kill and get out quickly for fear someone saw them and reported them. Franz's theory implies that there was no way the killer could be sure he wasn't seen by a neighbor entering the house, yet the guy just sits and reads a magazine after killing Mrs. Borden. FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF!!!
Then, once they sneaked in, ANY ROOM could contain a person. They would have no idea who was home, who was out, what room they were in. Unless the killer was willing to wildly kill ever person he came across from room to room, they would be outnumbered. If I were home, and a stranger carrying an ax entered the room I was in, I'd scream-LOUDLY. Lastly, upon killing them, the killer would have to sneak out of the house with an ax. He must be willing to step out into broad daylight, not knowing if there were 100 people out there watching from the street, neighboring houses, and yards...People throw this "stranger sneaking in" theory out without thinking through the DETAILS of it. Would anyone take such chances?

As for not finding the weapon, I have mentioned in other threads that this doesn't bother me at all. It's Lizzie's house, she knows every place to hide something. Remember, the house was not thoroughly searched until MONDAY. The day of the murders it was given only a quick going over. Lizzie's Menstrual bucket was left alone, it could be in that under her rags. It could have been slipped in a slit in the lining under a couch or chair. If you are sitting on a stuffed piece of furniture, reach your hand up under it. Between the floor and the inside of the furniture is a piece of material nailed across. Easy to slit that and put a hatchet there just until things settle down a bit.

[Nadzieja]

O, I scanned this real quick because I have to head out, but one question I thought of going through was : "If a note was delivered to Mrs. Borden in the morning which door would the messenger have gone to?" In my opinion I don't think there ever was a note because I'm sure that the sender would have come forward. Would the messenger go to the front door or would they have gone to the side?

[leitskev]

It's easy to slip into inconsistencies. Possum, you mention the difficulty of escaping with "an ax" and not being seen. As I read that, I was thinking a hatchet is not very big and can easily be slipped in a pocket. Then you seemed to recognize that fact when you mentioned hiding it in the menstrual bucket.

It's not easy to hide a weapon. If she hid it in the bucket, all it took was someone to poke it with a stick. And what was in that bucket, bloody water and rags? Would a hatchet really be invisible? Nothing about Lizzie suggests she was so clever to have had this thought: "I'll just hide the murder weapon in plain sight with the bloody rags...because no one will look there!"

Even if she hid the hatchet somewhere in the house and managed to remove it before Monday, how did she manage that without help? The house was under 24 hour surveillance. The cops watched her urinate the next morning through the window.

An accomplice getting rid of the weapon for her would be the only way, and I can buy into that possibility. But we also have to keep in mind that whoever would do that would be taking one hell of a chance. Being caught with that would result in being an accessory to murder, or possibly even being charge with the murder.

[NancyDrew]

If Mrs. Borden HAD received a note, I would think that a stranger would go to the front door, no? And that means the night lock wouldn't have been still in place. Another hole in Franz's theory...

I agree about hiding the ax in the menstrual bucket. How deep WAS the bucket? What IF a cop had poked it with a stick? Lizzie would be taking a REALLY big chance putting it in there...if it were discovered, that would be pretty convincing evidence that she was the perpetrator. She'd hang by the neck in front of everyone in Fall River. Yuck.

[leitskev]

Not that I believe there was a note, but if someone did bring a note to Abby, they could just as easily used the side door, especially if they knew the family. In fact, they could have even encountered Abby in the yard and given it to her there.

The side door was a screen door. It's possible someone came and told Abby that there was someone she needed to visit. There might have been no note, but things were misinterpreted by Lizzie.

Of course, the fact that no one was ever found that sent a note or requested Abby's presence suggests that Lizzie made it up. Unless we were to go down some conspiracy road where the person who requested Abby's help was the person who killed her. But that's pretty far out there.

I can accept that Lizzie might not recall where she was when Andrew came home, and can even allow how her testimony on what she was doing in the barn could be confused, or what she heard. But making up the existence of a note is prettying damning evidence that she was either the killer or knew who was. To believe Lizzie's version of events, we'd have to believe:

- someone delivered a note to Abby requesting aid, and that someone(nor the messenger) was never identified

- someone got in through the side door unseen by her(or Bridget), went up the stairs, and killed Abby without Lizzy hearing anything

- and then later when Andrew lay down on the couch, Lizzie just happened to go outside while the killer came down from the guest room and murdered Andrew

- and the killer left without Lizzie seeing him, and despite the neighborhood being crowded with nosy neighbors, no one else seeing him either

It's a lot to happen for her version to be even possible.

[Darrowfan]

leitskev, you are going to have to help me out on something. Your posts, as usual, are very informative and interesting. But you made a remark about the police surveillance of Lizzie that stunned the daylights out of me, to wit: "The cops watched her urinate the next morning through the window".

Huh?

[Allen]

I've conjectured that Lizzie hid the rags in the pail. But mostly my thoughts are she cleaned up with the rags, which were the handkerchiefs she was supposedly ironing and these were hastily hidden in a pail of bloody water in the basement. A pail that was not searched. We don't know how big the pail was there is no reference to size. It could have had a weapon inside. We don't know. Because the police did not search it. Could Lizzie believed they probably wouldn't look at her bloody rags. Yes, she could have. She was aware of how men thought of these matters at the time. They did not search it. And every step she took in murdering Andrew and Abby was a big risk. At any time something could have gone wrong. She's murdering two people with a hatchet on a busy street in the middle of the day, with the maid just outside during Abby's death, the windows were opened and the maid was upstairs when Andrew was killed, and a house guest who was expected to return. And people wonder if throwing a murder weapon in a pail of bloody rags is too risky. Or burning a supposedly paint stained dress, that Emma stated she told her she should burn, in front of people is too risky. Come on that makes no sense. Murder is not a business without risks. If she didn't want to take risks her parents would still be alive. Another good hiding place would have been her slop pail. They would not have poked around in what is possibly any number of a ladies private bodily functions in a pail in her bedroom. Without her being a true suspect at the time. That day they only made a cursory search of her bedroom after they gained access. They looked under the bed and opened her dresser drawers. They made only a cursory search of the dress closet during all of the searches. They needed Emma to state from memory what was hanging in there. Because the murders didn't happen in today's mind set we should not think of it with today's mind set. It could be easy to hide a weapon. So many murder cases in all of history have had no weapons ever found. Ever. And many of them are not the work of intruders. The police did not watch Lizzie urinate through a window. Ever. They watched her wash out a slop pail in the sink in the basement in the middle of the night through a basement window.

I brought up the fact of the door being locked and Bridget not expecting it to be because for me it shows that Lizzie quite possible left it locked on purpose. It was her job to unlock it in the mornings and yet she failed to do so that day. This would keep anyone from coming in unexpectedly.

Everyone also thinks that if Lizzie was found guilty of the crime she would have hanged. This is most likely not the case. I've studied the statistics of female murderers who were taken to trial in the nineteenth century. Especially those in Massachusetts. Of all the women found guilty very few of them were ever put to death. Their sentences were either commuted to life, the governor chose to pardon them, or they were conveniently found insane at the time of the murders. The insanity defense was the most often used, and the reason behind finding them insane was usually the fact that they committed murder in the first place. Women were thought to be too frail and delicate to intentionally commit acts of violence. And nobody wanted to see them put to death. So even when they were found guilty in about 99 cases out of 100 they did not get put to death. Even Hosea Knowlton admitted before the trial that he had no illusions that Miss Lizzie Borden would be found guilty. Massachusetts was against the death penalty in general. They are now a state without one.

[PossumPie]

Leitskiv, I like the way you debate, You can argue convincingly for either side, and you see inconsistencies on both sides. I agree with you that the note story almost certainly was a lie. This case was the largest news event at the time in New England. Everyone knew about it. They searched everyone known by the family, and no one stated that they had been sick and wrote a note. Franz has a wild theory as to it, but unfortunately there is not a shred of evidence to support it.
It seems to me, after following your posts, that your open to her possible guilt, but the lack of weapon found is your biggest hindrance. Read Allen's reprint of the trial testimony in the thread about Lizzie's dress. The officers repeatedly state for the record that they did NOT search carefully, and were looking only obvious clues, at one point he said he moved the dresses to see if a man were hiding behind them, not to look for blood.
No one watched her pee, no one even told her not to leave the house until much later when she was officially a suspect. Yes, the lack of weapon bothers me the most also. After reading all of the testimony having anything to do with the front door, I am now convinced that it had not been opened by anyone that morning until Mr. Borden attempted to get in that way at about 10:40 am. A note could be delivered to the side door, but there would have been a 50/50 chance Bridget would have seen the person, if she were washing the front or side windows at the time.

[Curryong]

I think this is an interesting thread with a view to the locks in the house.