Life after Murder...

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:09 am

Could we discuss what we know about the key players lives in the years after the murders? I read a great article about Morse in the years after...I'll try to find it. There is much more about "Lizabeth" but not much about Emma's life. Allen produced a death certificate which says she had Senility which is interesting. She never lived alone, but jumped from home to boarding home, to home. She certainly had enough money to buy a house, but didn't...When asked in an 'interview' with the Boston Post, why she left Lizzie, Emma allegedly said life had gotten 'unbearable'- but this interview was thought to have been falsified by the newspaper...

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:52 am

Here are drawings of the floor plan of someone who visited Maplecroft.... Fascinating.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:13 pm

Good stuff

.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:43 pm

I am honestly interested in what happened to all the key players in this case after the trial. I know that a few of the officer's moved up in rank afterward, or move up to be appointed to more important offices. I think it would be an interesting idea to delve into what happened to everyone afterward.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:08 pm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:01 am

Thank you for posting that newspaper article.

I know some people believe it was faked. I don't know that it is. But I wish they would have stated in the article where they were when they interviewed Emma. It's a fascinating read because we know so little of Emma.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:14 am

Thank you Aamartin, your posts are exciting.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:27 am

Allen wrote:Thank you for posting that newspaper article. I know some people believe it was faked. I don't know that it is. But I wish they would have stated in the article where they were when they interviewed Emma. It's a fascinating read because we know so little of Emma.

Is there evidence that it was faked?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:56 am

There is no evidence that I know of that it was faked. I'm not really even sure why or how that idea got started.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:20 pm

Allen wrote:There is no evidence that I know of that it was faked. I'm not really even sure why or how that idea got started.

"Emma Lenora Borden, sister to our gal Lizzie, has long been cited as the subject of an interview in the Boston Sunday Post of April 13, 1913. The by-lined reporter, one Edwin Joseph McGuire, however, has never been confirmed as a reporter, let alone the validity of the interview itself. The interview came just one week after an extensive article by Gertrude Stevenson of the Boston Sunday Herald who wrote of what life was like for Lizzie twenty years after the crimes. It has been speculated *that* article encouraged Emma to come forward from her self-imposed exile and speak for the very first time, ever, publicly – and “Lucky” McGuire got the gig.

Reference to this astonishing interview with Emma was, however, flatly denied by her"
-Wordpress.com

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:41 pm

The article was never flatly denied by Emma directly, according to the article, but through members of the Buck family years later. The entire article can be read on the site I posted. Thank you for leading me to the information Possumpie.

"Emma Lenora Borden, sister to our gal Lizzie, has long been cited as the subject of an interview in the Boston Sunday Post of April 13, 1913. The by-lined reporter, one Edwin Joseph McGuire, however, has never been confirmed as a reporter, let alone the validity of the interview itself. The interview came just one week after an extensive article by Gertrude Stevenson of the Boston Sunday Herald who wrote of what life was like for Lizzie twenty years after the crimes. It has been speculated *that* article encouraged Emma to come forward from her self-imposed exile and speak for the very first time, ever, publicly – and “Lucky” McGuire got the gig.

Reference to this astonishing interview with Emma was, however, flatly denied by her through the “Buck family”. The Buck family (once headed by that revered Reverend Edwin Augustus Buck who had died a decade before on March 9, 1903) was apparently now led by his spinster daughters, including Alice Buck, who was the closest to Emma.

We don’t know for certain if it was Alice Buck who was the member of the Buck family who said the McGuire article was “not authentic”, though it very well could have been. But the point is this: McGuire’s article is mentioned in so many books of the “first generation” authors and so little is mention, even with contemporary authors on the case, as to the subsequent denial of its authenticity..."

http://www.zimbio.com/Lizzie+Borden/art ... +Interview

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:09 am

This is a good thread, and I thought I'd bump it up. I have questions about Lizzie's life after the murders...namely, what was it like?

I know:

-She lived in Maplecroft.
-She had a chauffeured limousine when they became available
-She would visit Providence, and was caught shoplighting at Tilden-Thurber only five years after the murders (1897.) I'm from RI; Tllden Thurber exists to this day, on Westminster Street, "downcity" in Providence, You do NOT go in there unless you have money, and a lot of it.
-She liked the theater
-She had a horse drawn carriage waiting to pick up Nance O'Neil after one performance
-She threw at least one lavish party for the troupe of actors
-She was good to her servants, to laborers, to neighborhood children...the ones that weren't scared of her, at least.
-She had a falling out with the W.C.T.U. and proceeded to kick them out of the Andrew J. Borden building..I think it was during those proceedings when one woman was reported to have said that Lizzie was "physical wreck" and "morbidly paranoid.
-She had a falling out with Emma and died alone in the mid 1920's.

Okay, so that's all I know. What I would LIKE to know is:

-Did she EVER discuss the murders with anyone?
-Did she she ever consent to any interviews?
-She had friends; Helen Leighton, and one other woman whose name escapes me. And the actors in the theater troupe. Its' hard to me to believe none of them ever made a comment about Lizzie; her demeanor, behavior, what she was like, did she talk about her past, etc.
-Did she go to church? If so, which one? Did she have any sort of relationship with a pastor?
-(Purely speculative) How badly do you think she was haunted by the murders?

If she was guilty, don't you think she would have been TORMENTED by guilt? Was Lizzie an atheist? She belonged to a Christian organization, taught Sunday school...that would suggest she believed in God. Why wouldn't she be afraid that her actions (murder) would condemn her to an eternity in hell?

If she was innocent, where was her outrage? Why didn't she use her vast wealth to find out who killed her beloved father?

Finally...did she ever visit her father's gravesite? Did she do ANYTHING to preserve his memory, or honor his life?

Thanks to anyone who might know the answers to any of these questions.

For the record, I think Lizzie was guilty. I think all the evidence points to her, and the possibility of anyone else committing the crimes is very, very slim...and not empirically supported.

That being said, I cannot get inside her head, and that bugs me. How does one simply go on living after killing two people...folks who were IMMEDIATE family members? What was wrong with her that she could just pick up her life and blithely go on with it, knowing that the blood of her parents was on her hands? Was she a monster? A sociopath? A homicidal maniac?

One last thing...after the 1897 shoplifting of 2 porcelain paintings from the Tilden Thurber shop, Andrew Jennings, her own attorney, supposedly said "I will have nothing to do with that woman."

What do you think he meant by that? Do any of you think that her own lawyers thought she was guilty?

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:21 am

Two more questions:

Did either Mrs. Churchhill or Alice Russell ever speak to Lizzie or Emma again, after the murders? Thanks.

dalcanton · Post by **dalcanton** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:01 am

"If she was guilty, don't you think she would have been TORMENTED by guilt? Was Lizzie an atheist? She belonged to a Christian organization, taught Sunday school...that would suggest she believed in God. Why wouldn't she be afraid that her actions (murder) would condemn her to an eternity in hell?"

NancyDrew - excellent question. I, too, have often wondered about her Christian conscience - if she were guilty. Also, your comment about Lizzie just going on with her life after allegedly killing 2 people. Whether guilty or innocent, I just can't believe there's no record of her every talking about what happened. Or, perhaps she did. Boy, what I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall at Maplecroft! LOL

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:58 pm

I know that when Lizzie went back to her church she was literally snubbed by the rest of the congregation. They didn't even sit near her. She never went back. A lot of her life and her relationships with people after the trial are written about in the book Parallel Lives. She was very good to the people that worked for her. This is where I also saw a picture of her as an older woman, which I hadn't seen before this book. To me she seemed lonely, and people didn't really accept her back. She was never accepted into the "high "class of Fall River and it seemed that (my opinion) her close relationships were with the regular people.

Lizzie liked the theatre, and for a time became friends with the actress Nance O'Neil. Of course back than, theatre people were looked down upon by society. Again, poor Lizzie gets talked about for just being friends with someone.

That book is about Fall River and you read about the people & Lizzie throughout. I learned a lot of information and also put situations in perspective of the times. Life was so different back then between the social "classes" and the customs.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:00 pm

I also just wanted to put down that Lizzie & Emma died 9 days apart in 1927.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:06 pm

I've always found that to be a really intriguing coincidence in this case. Emma hung on until Lizzie had passed and she did not hold out much longer.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:55 pm

In my opinion alone, I was surprised that after they split up, that one of them didn't die or get severely ill. The adjustment must have been horrible. They were living together for so many years that it must have been either hard or they hated each other so much it was a relief.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:24 pm

I have also been intrigued with the fact of Emma and Lizzie dying only nine days apart. It’s almost as if Emma deliberately hung on until Lizzie had passed, and then she could leave this earth knowing she had indeed fulfilled the promise made to her mother; to ‘take care of little Lizzie’.

I have always wondered if Emma had ‘kept an eye on Lizzie’ after she moved out of Maplecroft, even though, as far as we know, these two women never spoke again for the rest of their lives.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:08 am

I've been going back over the threads in the last few days trying to piece a few things together that I did not think made much sense to me. It actually had nothing to do with this subject but, in rereading this thread, I would like to say one thing about atheism. I was a bit confused about the subject of religion being brought up in another thread, but this conversation did specifically bring up atheism. I am an atheist. I can assure you I need no threats of burning in the fires of hell to keep me from thinking it's O.K. to murder someone, or feeling bad when I do something I know has hurt someone. Atheists do have a conscience. That's not purely a concept that belongs to those who believe in God. I'm not saying this because the remarks offended me in any way. I'm just saying it to clear things up in that matter a little.

Another thing is Nadzieja pointed out the relationship with Nance O'Neil made Lizzie the subject of gossip. This is true and I've never understood why. Theater people to some extent were looked down on by people who thought themselves to be of good background. But Nance was also thought of very well, even beloved, by her fans. Which included all social classes. She was invited to meet and spend time with many people who were considered to have a good name and standing. And they were honored to do so. Theater people were thought to live a sort of wild vagabond lifestyle. Because in a way they really did. They traveled a lot. They were scrutinized in the public much the same as stars are today. This part for me has never made much sense. I think it had as much to do with Nance befriending a woman who was famous for being an accused murderous.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:14 am

Its hard to know what was the truth and what was gossip. Nance O'Neil got married after her relationship with Lizzie ended..in 1916 to Alfred Hickman.
I've found quite a few sources that claim she was an "overt lesbian." No substantiation, though. She never openly declared that she preferred women.

Some interesting facts:

O'Neil was very tall; 6 feet, in fact.
She was in silent movies.
She lived until 1965; I can't believe no one ever interviewed her. More digging.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:12 am

Nance O'Neil was interviewed about her relationship with Lizzie after Lizzie's death. A copy of the interview is found in The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:36 am

Thanks Allen.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:26 am

I will try to scan the interview from the book and hopefully upload it. But my computer is not liking me at the moment so we'll see how that goes.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:49 pm

Thank you for posting where I can find the interview. I do have that book, but it's one I haven't read yet.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:56 pm

I'm glad that you own a copy of the book. Unfortunately, I am unable to scan it in at the moment. The interview is near the back of the book on page 345. It keeps cutting it off and will not show the entire page. I can scan pictures but nothing bigger than a photograph. I have no idea what's going on. But since I had my scanner going I am going to post some pictures of the house that I took during my stay as soon as I have them all scanned in.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:39 am

Some of the things written about Lizzie's relationship with Nance O'Neill seem almost pathetic in a way, a lonely, ageing woman paying some of Nancy's legal expenses in the several lawsuits she was involved in and even turning up in court to offer moral support. It's clear that Nancy quite liked Lizzie but there may have been just a tinge of self-interest on Nancy's part just the same. I don't believe there was a lesbian relationship, may be wrong but there's no evidence and I just cannot visualise it somehow.
I am sure Nancy's way of life and the glimpses of the theatrical world it gave Lizzie were fascinating to her and I am sure she enjoyed the noisy and exuberant house parties at Tyngsboro and elsewhere. Yet the relationship between the two women doesn't seem to have lasted longer than about two years. Wasn't there some rumour that Lizzie wanted to write or stage a play as a starring vehicle for Nance, just a step too far perhaps? Certainly, Lizzie didn't cough up any money when the perpetually financially embarrassed Nancy's house went into foreclosure.
As for Emma, I am sure she disapproved of Nancy and her lifestyle. I think Emma left Maplecroft because, above everything she craved anonymity and a very quiet life. Whether the elephant in the room (was Lizzie a murderer or not) just got too much for Emma as she aged is also a possibility.

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:25 pm

Curryong, you've captured my take on the Nance O'Neil business perfectly, but added something that had slipped my mind, that being the mere two-year duration of this relationship. I would add that I always suspected Nance rather "collected" Lizzie, the way the character Sally Bowles in "The Berlin Stories"/"I Am a Camera"/"Cabaret" frivolously collected her various oddballs.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:12 am

According to the authors of the book 'The Cases That Haunt Us', after Lizzie's trial the prosecutor William Moody received a package in the mail 'containing official photographs of the trial-- including the crime scenes-- along with a handwritten note from the lady herself 'to the effect that she thought he might like them "as souvenirs of an interesting occasion."
Who knew that Lizzie had such a black sense of humour, always supposing its true, of course. Wonder whether she kept a few copies for herself? And what other 'official photographs' would there be?

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:59 am

Could that possibly be true? Wouldn't it be more likely that Moody had these things himself, all along? How would Lizzie have acquired them? They were state's evidence against her, after all.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:41 am

I'm interested in what happened to John Morse after the murders. Emma kept to herself by all accounts that I've read. Lizzie kind of did her own thing after the murders. Can't say that I blame her. Noone wanted anything to do with her.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:13 pm

I think he had quite a good life, Snokkums. John Morse never married but continued to hold land and be prosperous and visit his relatives in Fall River, New Bedford and other places. He was interested in life after death and would sit in a friend's shop for hours talking about it. John had a small boat that he kept at New Bedford, and he fished and rode horses. He was quite well known and popular in his community. Later on in life I believe that, like Emma, he lodged with friends rather than be alone.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:27 am

twinsrwe wrote:I have also been intrigued with the fact of Emma and Lizzie dying only nine days apart. It’s almost as if Emma deliberately hung on until Lizzie had passed, and then she could leave this earth knowing she had indeed fulfilled the promise made to her mother; to ‘take care of little Lizzie’.

I have always wondered if Emma had ‘kept an eye on Lizzie’ after she moved out of Maplecroft, even though, as far as we know, these two women never spoke again for the rest of their lives.

that's what i was going to say. it may be romanticizing, but only nine days after lizzie's death, despite emma being about a decade (i believe) older than lizzie, does seem a considerable coincidence.

Curryong wrote:As for Emma, I am sure she disapproved of Nancy and her lifestyle. I think Emma left Maplecroft because, above everything she craved anonymity and a very quiet life. Whether the elephant in the room (was Lizzie a murderer or not) just got too much for Emma as she aged is also a possibility.

i agree. a result of the two of them always having vastly differing characters and wants. but i can't help but think something specific happened that caused emma to leave lizzie and maplecroft, and for the two of them - who'd always been so close - to never speak again. it had to have been something big, something irreconcilable.

did lizzie finally admit to emma she had killed their parents? surely if she were to confess, it would only have been to emma. according to that (possibly made up) interview with emma, she continued to profess lizzie's innocence, but she might have done that anyway.

the only other thing i can think of, which has been discussed, is that lizzie and nance were having a romantic relationship. that certainly would have shocked straight-laced emma to her core, and i could see it causing a permanent break. that letter from lizzie to nance about a dream lizzie had does rather sound like they might have had some romantic involvement.

the fact that nance later married doesn't exclude this. she may have been bisexual.

NancyDrew · Post by **NancyDrew** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:47 am

Yes, I agree. The dying of the 2 sisters 9 days apart is quite odd, but then again, I think death is odd.

I've witnessed a close relative hanging onto life, and only passing when he was left alone for 10 minutes.

My grandfather, the greatest person I have ever known, hung on in a coma for a week (no food or water, just morphine) until his 3 sons were together, by his bedside (1 had been out of the country when his father was stricken by a massive stroke). My father (the oldest) spoke "Dad, we are all here...you can go now; it's okay." And he promptly died. True story.

This past year, I lost a very close relative...my 1st cousin, Bonnie. It was a horrible tragedy; she was very ill to begin with, and then, on shaky feet, attempted to go down a steep flight of stairs and fell, breaking her neck and spine. For 3 days, droves of family came to say goodbye to her (she had lapsed into a coma.) Finally, with just her 2 brothers and her mother near her, she succumbed.

The nurse who cared for her told us that in her 30-plus years as an ICU nurse, she saw very strange things..."too many to be a coincidence" was the way she put it.

Is it possible that Emma killed herself, or simply stopped wanting to live, and "willed" herself to die? I confess to not knowing the circumstances of her death...actually, the COD for Lizzie varies greatly, depending on the source.

I've read Lizzie died from gallbladder surgery, from a year of sickness following removal of her gall bladder, from pneumonia. from heart disease, etc.

FactFinder · Post by **FactFinder** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:54 pm

From Lizzie Borden Past and Present page 296:

"Lizzie Borden does not propose to have the W.C.T.U. in her building in Fall River unless all its members speak to her on the street, which some of them decline to do. Our advice to Lizzie would be that she would show more good sense by quietly keeping still than by using the money which came to her so suddenly through the unexpected death of her father and mother for the sake of evening up with people who are not reconciled to her relations with the affair. (From the Boston Record.) Fall River Daily Globe, June 6, 1894:8.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:49 am

Gosh, the Fall River Daily Globe certainly didn't stand on ceremony where Lizzie was concerned, did they? It's hard to know what attitude Lizzie should have adopted. I think the fact that she (and Emma) bought Maplecroft so soon after the murders was the catalyst for much of the ostracism she suffered. It just stuck in people's craws. She would have done better to have moved, perhaps to Boston or New York, in my humble opinion, instead of growing old, lonely and possibly embittered in Fall River.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:56 pm

i too think it would have been much smarter of her to get out of dodge.

it makes sense for her to stay there at first. she'd gotten so much support during the trial, i think it must have come as a very rude awakening that first sunday she went to church and found out that she was actually going to be blatantly ostracized. by the very people from whom she craved acceptance.

it's quite telling about her personality that she tried to force the members of the wtcu to speak to her by not allowing the organization in her building unless they did. (because as well all know, that kind of thing always works so well :)

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:31 am

Yes, you wonder how Emma reacted inwardly when Lizzie behaved in an abrasive or defensive way. Did she ever say to herself "Oh, here we go, again!" Emma went to church more after the trial than before, apparently, (to give thanks to the Almighty for her sister's deliverance, for some social contact, to get away from Lizzie for a few hours on a Sunday, who knows!)
I think it's notable that it was Emma who would write to Uncle John, irregularly, but she still wrote, and kept up with Gardner relatives, and, until the trial, had Alice Russell as a close friend and confidant. Emma was able to maintain close friendships with kinfolk and others, it seems, while, for whatever reason, Lizzie struggled.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:12 pm

People were smart enough to understand that Not Guilty is not the same as Innocent...patricide by bludgeon makes anyone a pariah in every culture at any time in history.

It seems that from thereon Lizzie's money bought most of her acceptance.

Maybe Emma's churchgoing involved getting down on her knees and thanking God that Lizzie had not seen fit to wait 'til she was home and wipe out the entire family...

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:05 pm

The Montreal Gazette. August 5, 1899

THE BORDEN MYSTERY.

Lizzie Borden’s Quiet Life With Her
Sister Emma.

[Fall River Cor. New York World.]
Next Friday will be the seventh anniversary of the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Andrew J. Borden. It will be recalled that this aged couple were killed by an assassin with an axe in the forenoon of a day when travel was at its height, when they were in their home, in Second street, but two blocks away from City Hall when their daughter Lizzie and a servant girl, Bridget Sullivan, were the only known people about the premises.
It will be recalled that the daughter was accused and imprisoned, that she stood trial and was acquitted, and that the whole case is still wrapped in mystery.
Lizzie A. and Emma, the daughters of the thrifty old man of 70 years, and the sole heirs to a half million dollars, live together in the aristocratic section of the city. Two miles of city buildings separate them from the old homestead on Second street, now occupied as a two-family house. They seldom see it, and never when they can avoid it.
At the time of the trial it was urged as a motive for the crime by the police, that the prisoner desired to enter social life, which was denied her because of her father’s penuriousness and her stepmother’s influence over him. The money that has come to her by death has certainly not aided her in attaining her desire, if that has been her desire at any time. Were it not for the presence of those friends who still cling to her, her life would be cheerless, for social hate has entered into it.
The new home she purchased on French street had been occupied by a family who brightened it in every conceivable way. Since the Bordens moved in, heavy iron bars have been placed on all the cellar windows, the blinds are rarely opened, and heavy vines have been trimmed to obscure the piazzas from all passers-by. The only servants employed are a single work girl and a man of all work. He drives the family carriage.
Shortly after the Misses Borden went to live in their new home they made successful overtures fro the removal of a tenement house that adjoined their property too closely. The lot on which it stood is vacant, buts its surface is carpeted in green, and it is bounded by a stone wall that runs around the east and north sides of the property.
There was another vacant lot directly opposite the house which offered a chance for close observers. It was bought by representatives of the two girls, and they now have its lawn carefully kept, despite the fact that it is across the street, and protects no view.
Lizzie Borden travels frequently, but does not remain away any great length of time. She does not sign her own name on the hotel registers. Emma, on the contrary, seldom goes out of the state. The two girls frequently go out in their carriage together. They ride frequently along the country drives or over to their farm in Swansea.
Sometimes they go shopping together, but as a rule that is done out of town, where attention and possible rebuffs are avoided. They both have frequent consultation with their lawyer Andrew J. Jennings, who stood by them so well, and their agent Mr. Cook, who looks after all their property and who has all the direct dealings with the numerous tenants.
They have never been known to go to church in the past six years. They take no part in church matters, and many of the Church people have cut them forever.
Lizzie recently began to take music lessons. It is also said that she takes lessons in painting. Her hobby, appears to be street pianos and hudy-gurdies. These instruments are wheeled up to her door night after night, and the neighbors remark that a dollar is the reward that is paid for a long grinding. A woman with an accordion or a tambourine is quite a acceptable as the lively piano tintillations of “Way Down in Georgia.”
The only pet on the premises is a black cat. It was sent from New York by a fancier, and has grown from kittenhood to be lord of Miss Borden’s back wall. She fondles and pets it, and it follows her about the yard like a dog.
Much of the women’s money is being spent in a charitable way, but they strictly enjoin anyone from remarking in public concerning it. They have contributed freely to local hospitals, to other kindred institutions, to the support of families they knew in their younger days, to the children of the poor, when application is made to them. In this respect Lizzie’s generosity has been remarkable.
The rewards that were offered for the apprehension of the murderer still hold good provided some one turns up to earn them.

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Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:12 pm

I found the above interesting, posted in June 2010 by Kat and Harry, who transcribed the article. Thank you both and please come back and see us. It is on Page 10 of the topics and is in the thread 'Lizzie and Emma in 1895 and 1899.'
If true, their life sounds very secluded and grim. No wonder Lizzie enjoyed Nance O' Neill's company so much, later on.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:48 am

very interesting article. thanks, curryong, for reposting it. and thanks to kat and harry for locating and transcribing it. yes, please do come back!

i noticed andrew was described as thrifty and penurious.

also that the second street house was reverted to a two-family home. i wonder how that worked out. upstairs there would have to be a kitchen, with running water, and what about bathrooms? did they have to share the cellar privy?

yes, emma and lizzie's life does sound isolated and sad. i don't think lizzie would have minded not going to church anymore, but surely emma would have.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:53 pm

Yes, I wondered about the re-conversion, which would have been expensive, you would have thought. Mrs Mary Wyatt was a lodger in the Bowen home at the time of the murders. Was the Bowen home a true duplex or did mrs Wyatt just rent a room? Dr Bowen's father-in-law lived there too. Mrs Churchill, of course, had lodgers, whose presence she was a bit prickly about during her testimony.
The above article is a bit sad and pathetic, I think. The idea of Lizzie probably sitting near a window listening to organ grinders music of a night on a regular basis is rather bizarre. Emma apparently didn't partake of music lessons or painting. With only one maid most of the household chores and housekeeping would have fallen to her, I guess.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:52 pm

oh shoot, i just came across a photo of the bowen house. (yes, but where?) it looks large and rather imposing. much more elaborate than the borden's. so i'm thinking it wasn't a true duplex.

i wondered if that bit about the organ grinders coming night after night was true, or the reporter taking liberties. not that i can't see it happening a few times, and lizzie being pleased. but night after night? maybe not. but it makes better copy.

i wonder if emma had animals. she was there during the black cat period, but it sounds like the cat was really lizzie's. both of them left good sums to animal organizations in their wills (lizzie more than emma), but as far as i know, lizzie was the only one who really loved and had animals.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:55 pm

found the photo!

funny how it looks like it's on a corner, to the left side.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:06 pm

That's interesting about Emma. I didn't know she had senility. That's off the chain. And I thought that she had bought a home in Rhode Island.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:37 pm

What a terrific photo of the Bowen house. Beautiful, and imposing, but how would you like to do the housework, making it spick and span every day. It would be hard to maintain, too. The Bowens only had the one child, so five people inhabiting it would have had plenty of room. Wonder whether Ms Wyatt was some sort of (paying)lodger relative?

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:57 pm

We own a turn of the century Queen Anne that we're renovating to sell. It's not nearly that huge (3,300 square feet) but it has 59 windows! I swore we'd never retire to that house because of washing all those windows. I don't happen to have a Maggie in residence.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:07 pm

Was a house that age hard to maintain, debbie? I lived in a small 1880's house by the sea when I was a child, and the salt air and sea-spray was corrosive, but the house was unbelievably solid, two bricks thick in the walls.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:36 pm

There's a huge difference between new and old. Old houses always have 'iffy' basements, plumbing systems that balk and electricity that needs update, but the old growth timber used for construction will last another hundred years. This house has an open front staircase and the oak has the most lovely fine grain, unlike new oak trim. We designed and built the house we live in. As nice as it is, it will never have the character and beauty of an old Victorian.