Still about the barn

[Franz]

“Did Lizzie do it?” This is the major question of the Borden case. Aamartin said in another post that most of the members have already their answer. This doesn’t matter: since the question is still open, there are always two possible answers: 1) yes, she did it; 2) no, she didn’t.

If Lizzie did it, she would have not been in the barn: she gave a contradictory alibi testimony because she lied and at that moment, instead of being in the barn, she was busy killing her father and hiding her weapon and cleaning her up…

If Lizzie didn’t do it, she could have been effectively in the barn. But in this case why did she give a contradictory alibi testimony? For this question I, inspirited by a Nancydrew’s post, recently invited you to consider the possibility of Lizzie’s drinking or smoking in the barn. Allen judged this conjecture “ridiculous”: Lizzie could not have run the risk to be judged and even convicted just in order to cover an act like smoking or drinking.

Certainly, it’s possible that Lizzie was the author of the murder, but I don’t think my conjecture is “ridiculous”, I am writing this new and separate thread to underline this point: Lizzie began to give different alibi versions immediately after the discovery of her father’s body. At that moment, being innocent, how could she foresee that she would be suspected and arrested and introduced in a court for the murder? Why must she foresee all this? For me it would be completely comprehensible if Lizzie lied, instead of confessing (automatically at that moment – in other words: auto-accused) that: “Oh, Mrs. Churchill, I was in the barn and I was… drinking (smoking a cigar)…” Why would she confess an action of this kind at that moment, immediately after the discovery of her father’s body, if these two behaviours, drinking and smoking, were really so badly considered by her contemporaries? Being innocent Lizzie certainly didn’t prepare nothing for her alibi, that’s why she changed her version in order to full up better those minutes she spent in the barn to drink or to smoke. And when questioned by Knowlton, because 1) Lizzie had lied before, in the 4th August, she had to continue; 2) she could haven’t realised still the gravity of the situation for her, so Lizzie continued to lie before Knowlton. Is my conjecture ridiculous? I don’t’ think so. If smoking or drinking could have caused the definitive separation of the sisters, I have difficult to imagine that Lizzie would have confessed: “Oh, Mrs. Churchill, it’s a shame but…I was drinking (smoking) in the barn.” Why must she?

Yes, Lizzie lied about her alibi. Allen, in a threat in the “Stay for tea”, said that sometimes the murderers didn’t prepare an alibi. This certainly can be true, and this could have been true for Lizzie. I discussed many times by saying that if Lizzie did it, she would have prepared a good alibi version. But my observation doesn’t stop here, it doesn’t discuss only Lizzie’s not preparing a good alibi version tout court. Lizzie could have committed the murder and meanwhile didn’t prepare an alibi. But what troubles me is that: while she had no room in her mind to prepare an alibi (a crucial thing to save her life), she had, on the contrary, thought of other things that hadn’t almost any importance... “Oh, I was searching something for my fishing programme…Yes, I will tell them this story and I will stick on it.” Isn’t it a very easy lie to invent? But Lizzie failed…

Did or didn’t Lizzie do it? This is a question…

[Allen]

Franz, if you saw my posts in the other thread, smoking was actually coming into vogue among American women. It was written about in magazine articles and newspapers. Even for women of Lizzie's "social status". It was written that women were actually asking for smoking cars on trains exclusively for women. That there was nothing wrong with a woman having a smoke in her own home, or the home of a friend even, other than the risk to her health. And if Lizzie was drinking why did she not act like she'd been drinking? Why would she cover up something that was not considered that vulgar at the time? And why wouldn't she act as if she'd been drinking? Where did she hide the alcohol? Yes. I still say it's not very likely.

[Allen]

It doesn't explain why Lizzie would rather be thought a murderer after she knew she was suspected than admit she had a drink. In my opinion, there is a difference between your sister not liking the fact that you smoke or drink, or have parties and hang out with a theater crowd, and letting everyone think you committed a double hatchet murder so they wouldn't know you smoked a cigar. Emma stayed with Lizzie until 1905. That's about 13 years. She did not move right out because of whatever difficulties she was having with Lizzie. Which indicates she did have some reservations about leaving. She was around 54 years old when she left. If she did leave because of Lizzie's behavior, the company she was keeping and so forth, it was most probably because she was getting too old to want to deal with it anymore.

[Aamartin]

People were hovering over her after she raised the alarm, fanning her and applying cool rags, etc. They would have smelled smoke or possibly alcohol on her breath. There was no report of ash found in the barn or empty bottles reported. IMO if she is out drinking in the day, at noon-- she would have a problem with alcohol and would have possibly shown other signs

[Franz]

People were hovering over her after she raised the alarm, fanning her and applying cool rags, etc. They would have smelled smoke or possibly alcohol on her breath. There was no report of ash found in the barn or empty bottles reported. IMO if she is out drinking in the day, at noon-- she would have a problem with alcohol and would have possibly shown other signs

I agree with you for some points. However, 1) if she smoke or drank, before going out and returning to the house to meet her family, she must have somehow "cleaned" her up as well. 2) in such a shocking situation, more than one didn't remember (notice) even the color of Lizzie's dress...

[Allen]

Have you ever smelled cigar smoke, Franz? It's strong and distinctive. You wouldn't have to be looking for it.

[Miranda]

If the barn story was the only thing that she lied about, I would give her a pass, but she lied about so many things!

I have a cousin about whom is said "He would lie even if the truth would suit him better" He lies all the time, about everything. After years of this, nobody believes anything he says about anything. He will look you right in the eye and tell the most outlandish stories. He will steal anything that isn't nailed down, as well.

He is a charming rascal, the girls hang on his every word, but he has no morals. I don't think he has ever killed anyone, but if he had I doubt anyone would notice any change in his demeanor.

I think Lizzie was like that, too. she did what she wanted and didn't bat an eyelash for the consequences. She just made it up as she went along.

When she was bashing Abby's brains out her story was that Abby wasn't even there. She was out of the house, visiting a sick friend, supposedly. When she was bashing her Daddy's brains out, she was supposedly out in the barn.

Even if we believed for a moment that she was in the barn, what about the note story?

If it had only been her Daddy, I could believe she could be innocent. But How did she kill Abby when the poor old lady wasn't even in the house?

[PossumPie]

Franz, You seem to hinge all of Lizzie's innocence on one event...that she was doing something taboo. We spent months debating a prim Victorian woman rolling around in dusty dirty straw masturbating during her period. It seems you finally concede that that would have made her MORE dirty than a bloody hatchet murder. Then, you switched to cigars or booze. Both of these have odors that hang around longer than an unwanted relative at Christmas. I can smell alcohol on someone's breath 10 feet away, and she was surrounded by a lot of people right after she found the body. I really don't care about the lies about the barn... that isn't the final factor in her guilt!! Mr. Borden died less than 10 minutes before she discovered him. She lied about being in the barn. BUT she also has a list of other lies, suspicious things she said and did. .

[twinsrwe]

Franz, there is no way Lizzie could have ‘cleaned up’ after smoking a cigar, cigarette, or pipe, for that matter, because of the odor the smoke leaves on the person’s hair, clothes and skin. In order for her to have ‘cleaned up’ after smoking anything, she would have to literally take a bath, wash her hair and clothes. She would also need to dry her body, hair, and clothes as well as fix her hair before going back in the house. All of that in 20-30 minutes? Impossible! Furthermore, where did she put the left over cigar butt? Cigarette butt? Pipe? There was absolutely no evidence whatsoever of Lizzie smoking in the barn.

As far as Lizzie ‘drinking’ in the barn, she would have smelled of alcohol, which would have been easily detected via her breath and physical actions. Even if she brushed her teeth afterward, the alcohol odor would still be detected on her breath. Furthermore, there was no indication that she had been drinking – no off balance walking, no noted change in her mood and no slurring of her words. Again, there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever of Lizzie drinking in the barn.

[Aamartin]

I will concede this-- IF she did go to the barn, and I don't think she did-- it was AFTER her father was killed and she went out there to dispose of a weapon. Again, I don't think she was anywhere near that barn on that fateful morning.

[twinsrwe]

I totally agree, Aamartin!

[PossumPie]

As I read all this about Lizzie secretly drinking, I remember Scarlett O'Hara drinking in her room, then Rhett Butler is at the door, and she in a panic drinks cologne to mask the smell...It didn't work.

[Allen]

Franz, I will admit that I admire your tenacity. You are as convinced of Lizzie's innocence as I am of her guilt. I am honestly just curious, did you start out with the premise that Lizzie was innocent and try to find the facts to support it? Or did you let the facts lead you to this conclusion?

[Franz]

I am writing a number of replies in one.

1. Moral consideration (addressed especially to Allen). I am ignorant of the opinions of Lizzie’s time regarding women’s smoking or drinking. Allen wrote: “It was written that women were actually asking for smoking cars on trains exclusively for women. That there was nothing wrong with a woman having a smoke in her own home, or the home of a friend even, other than the risk to her health.” Ok. However, smoking or drinking for women was it a novelty at Lizzie’s time? Was this behavior accepted generally by the society? I invite you to consider these two points: 1) Fall River was not New York; 2) different individuals act differently before an even legal behavior. I give here only two examples: a) in a number of countries the use of some drugs is legal, but this doesn’t mean that all users of these drugs use them openly; b) in many countries the homosexuality is legal, but this doesn’t mean that all gays and lesbians live openly their homosexuality. Let’s return to Lizzie, who was an active member of her religious community and a Sunday school teacher. Even if at her time smoking or drinking of women began to be accepted by many, it is totally possible for me that Lizzie wanted to cover to people her behaviors of this kind.

2. Aamartin wrote: “There was no report of ash found in the barn or empty bottles reported”. The police searched the criminal weapon, so even they saw some cigar ash there, who would take care to report it? The bottle(s)? If many of you think that Lizzie could hide successfully an hatchet, why couldn’t she hide a (little) bottle of alcohol if she drank secretly?

3. The smell of either alcohol or cigar. I must admit that this is indeed a problem. But we should keep in mind, I think, that if Lizzie did drink or smoke occasionally but secretly, the quantity she consumed must have been very modest. When questioned by Knowlton, she didn’t say at the beginning that she ate some pears. Is it possible that this was indeed a part of the truth? Is it possible that she did go upstairs in the barn, went to the west window, but instead of putting well the curtain she opened the window to smoke a (very little) section of cigar, or (without opening the window) to drink some drops of alcohol? And then, she ate three pears to diminish the smell? Is it possible that Mrs. Churchill, who was making the bed in the far west room on the second floor of her house, saw Lizzie smoke or drink just by the window? Is it possible that, being a traditionalist (an hypotheses), Mrs. Churchill considered a woman’s smoking or drinking scandalous and she would never repeat “even if they tore her tongue out”? Is it possible that Lizzie spent only a very few minutes to drink or smoke and then she went downstairs and spent much more time to wash her hands and to rinse her mouth in order to be certain that all was OK before going out the barn? Is it possible that when she was in the ground floor of the barn and busy “cleaning” her up that the real killer killed Andrew and escaped by the side door (just a minute, or even less, before Lizzie went out the barn)? And, I repeat here, in that tragic and horrible circumstance, more than one people even didn’t notice the colour of Lizzie’s dress. So even Lizzie had any very slight smell of alcohol or cigar, is it possible that this very slight smell could be not noticed by all those very excited people, especially after the arrival of many men (policemen in primis), who should have been great consumers of cigar and alcohol? I invite you to consider these possibilities.

4. Twinsrwe said that “there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever of Lizzie drinking in the barn.” Yes, I have no evidence. One could think that Lizzie was guilty and then, conjectures that if she was guilty, she must have somehow cleaned her up and hidden the weapon. Do we have any evidence about all this?

5. PossumPie said: “You seem to hinge all of Lizzie's innocence on one event.” I don’t understand what made you say so. Many other events suggest, much more strongly in my opinion, Lizzie’s innocence.

6. To Miranda. Lizzie undoubtedly lied about what she was doing in the barn, but we could not say as a fact that she lied about the note story. The fact is that Lizzie said that Abby told her to have received a note, etc., and then the note was not found. This is the fact. That Lizzie lied about the note is only and just a ... conjecture.

[PossumPie]

I am writing a number of replies in one.



5. PossumPie said: “You seem to hinge all of Lizzie's innocence on one event.” I don’t understand what made you say so. Many other events suggest, much more strongly in my opinion, Lizzie’s innocence.

6. To Miranda. Lizzie undoubtedly lied about what she was doing in the barn, but we could not say as a fact that she lied about the note story. The fact is that Lizzie said that Abby told her to have received a note, etc., and then the note was not found. This is the fact. That Lizzie lied about the note is only and just a ... conjecture.

Franz, sorry about the confusion. What I meant was that it seems that you have very strong opinions that Lizzie was doing something 'forbidden' and that is why she lied about being in the barn. I remember back last spring one of your very first posts was about Lizzie masturbating in the barn. I looked back on MY reply and I was in agreement with you back then. It made sense to me UNTIL I began thinking about it more deeply. That act would have made her covered in dust, blood, and straw, and very difficult to clean up. Even if that is what she were doing, she wouldn't risk death by hanging to keep it secret. As you changed your theory to cigars or alcohol, I disagreed more. Faced with death, or even acquittal with everyone still THINKING that she murdered them, why hide something so trivial? You believe she stubbornly risked everything in life to cover up a fairly trivial embarrassment.

[Franz]

I am writing a number of replies in one.



5. PossumPie said: “You seem to hinge all of Lizzie's innocence on one event.” I don’t understand what made you say so. Many other events suggest, much more strongly in my opinion, Lizzie’s innocence.

6. To Miranda. Lizzie undoubtedly lied about what she was doing in the barn, but we could not say as a fact that she lied about the note story. The fact is that Lizzie said that Abby told her to have received a note, etc., and then the note was not found. This is the fact. That Lizzie lied about the note is only and just a ... conjecture.

Franz, sorry about the confusion. What I meant was that it seems that you have very strong opinions that Lizzie was doing something 'forbidden' and that is why she lied about being in the barn. I remember back last spring one of your very first posts was about Lizzie masturbating in the barn. I looked back on MY reply and I was in agreement with you back then. It made sense to me UNTIL I began thinking about it more deeply. That act would have made her covered in dust, blood, and straw, and very difficult to clean up. Even if that is what she were doing, she wouldn't risk death by hanging to keep it secret. As you changed your theory to cigars or alcohol, I disagreed more. Faced with death, or even acquittal with everyone still THINKING that she murdered them, why hide something so trivial? You believe she stubbornly risked everything in life to cover up a fairly trivial embarrassment.

Please re-read my replies addressed to Allen for the same argument.