How did Lizzie react to Abby's Death?

[dalcanton]

Is there a source/book that states what Lizzie’s reaction was when it was discovered that Abby was dead? Did she have any reaction at all?

Whether guilty or innocent, it'd be interesting to know how Lizzie reacted.

[Franz]

Mr. Sawyer in Inquest testimony (p.140) said: "When they came down and reported that her mother had been killed, she (Lizzie) apparently went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit, I dont know exactly what, and Dr. Bowen said she better be carried up to her room."

[Allen]

Mr. Sawyer was not present to see Lizzie's reaction at the time the body was discovered. He was informed the body had been found by others present. Dr. Bowen was not present at the time the body was discovered. He was out sending the telegram to Emma. So we have a second hand account from a person who was not present when the body was discovered saying she 'apparently' went off in a fit, when none of the others who were present when the body was discovered testified to any such thing.

[dalcanton]

"Mr. Sawyer in Inquest testimony (p.140) said: "When they came down and reported that her mother had been killed, she (Lizzie) apparently went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit, I dont know exactly what, and Dr. Bowen said she better be carried up to her room."

Thank you, Franz. I need to re-read the Inquest. I don't recall ever having read about Lizzie's reaction before. That is interesting.

[Allen]

Inquest testimony page 122-123 Dr. Bowen testified that he had been told the body of Mrs. Borden had been found while he was out sending the telegram to Emma. He went up and saw the body and came back down stairs. He stated what condition Lizzie was in when he came down from seeing the body. Alice testified that she started to loosen Lizzie's dress fearing she might be feeling faint, and Lizzie stated that she did not feel faint. And nobody testified to Lizzie become hysterical except Charles Sawyer who was not present at the time.

Q. Has not fainted?
A. No sir, not fainted. By the way, I might put in, it does not connect, but I will go back to the time I came down the second time. I can describe her condition at that time when I came down the second time, after I found out the mother was dead. Miss Russell was at her side in a chair, and was working over her at the time; in a minute or two she got her into the dining room on a sofa or lounge, on the end of that. She was lying down, and she was fanning her, and had wet cloths put on her forehead, and they were working over her in that way.

Q. Was she faint?
A. Not as I know of at that time. As I found two people murdered there, I supposed the rest would take care of themselves pretty well.

[Aamartin]

I'm fairly certain she was dancing a mental jig.

[Franz]

Mr. Sawyer was not present to see Lizzie's reaction at the time the body was discovered. He was informed the body had been found by others present. Dr. Bowen was not present at the time the body was discovered. He was out sending the telegram to Emma. So we have a second hand account from a person who was not present when the body was discovered saying she 'apparently' went off in a fit, when none of the others who were present when the body was discovered testified to any such thing.

Yes, Allen, when Lizzie was told Abby's death, Mr. Sawyer "stood in the kitchen, just inside the door, and Mrs. Churchill came up to" (Inquest, p. 138) him and told him the news. So Mr. Sawyer didn't see Lizzie's immediate reactions at the very moment when she was told the news. But he should have been told the news almost immediately after Lizzie. And then, he was asked at the Inquest (p. 139):

Q: Is there any other fact you have not told us that you saw or heard, connected with the affair?
A: I went up to the room where Mrs. Borden was found, and saw her lying there...

When should we fix the moment that Mr. Sawyer "went up to the room where Mrs. Borden was found"? I would conjecture that he went up there immediately (or almost immediately) after he was informed by Mrs. Churchill. By doing so, he must have walked through twice - going up to and returning from the guest room - the dinning room where Lizzie was, and he could not have missed to see her (no one could have missed to see Lizzie (and Alice) in that room except ...... Morse). So I permit me to conjecture that even though Mr. Sawyer didn't see - it's true - Lizzie's reactions when she was told the news, he could have testified to her reactions (which should have been the continuation of her very first reactions) shortly, very shortly, after the very first moment. Since Mr. Sawyer was asked to tell what he "saw" or "heard", and by answering this question he used "apparently", so I am pretty certain that, no matter if Lizzie was the killer and no matter if Lizzie was simulating her reactions, Mr. Sawyer was testifying what he had seen with his own eyes about Lizzie's reactions (almost) immediately after she was told that Abby was dead.

by the way, I would like to underline here that it was by Dr. Bowen's suggestion that Lizzie retuned into her room.

[Allen]

Franz, can you show any evidence that Dr. Bowen suggested she go up to her room other than Sawyer's testimony? Did Dr. Bowen himself state this? We know that nobody carried Lizzie up to her room she walked under her own power.

[Franz]

Franz, can you show any evidence that Dr. Bowen suggested she go up to her room other than Sawyer's testimony? Did Dr. Bowen himself state this? We know that nobody carried Lizzie up to her room she walked under her own power.

Allen, I most probably could not show any other evidence other than Sawyer's testimony. But I will question in this way: is there any more convincing evidence against Sawyer's testimony and makes it unreliable? If there isn't such an opposite evidence --- the lack of an affermative statement from the part of Dr. Bowen, in my opinion, isn't an oposite evidence, --- how could we doubt, how could we challenge Mr. Sawyer's testimony (in this specific case)?

[Allen]

Mr. Sawyer was not present to see Lizzie's reaction at the time the body was discovered. He was informed the body had been found by others present. Dr. Bowen was not present at the time the body was discovered. He was out sending the telegram to Emma. So we have a second hand account from a person who was not present when the body was discovered saying she 'apparently' went off in a fit, when none of the others who were present when the body was discovered testified to any such thing.

Yes, Allen, when Lizzie was told Abby's death, Mr. Sawyer "stood in the kitchen, just inside the door, and Mrs. Churchill came up to" (Inquest, p. 138) him and told him the news. So Mr. Sawyer didn't see Lizzie's immediate reactions at the very moment when she was told the news. But he should have been told the news almost immediately after Lizzie. And then, he was asked at the Inquest (p. 139):

Q: Is there any other fact you have not told us that you saw or heard, connected with the affair?
A: I went up to the room where Mrs. Borden was found, and saw her lying there...

When should we fix the moment that Mr. Sawyer "went up to the room where Mrs. Borden was found"? I would conjecture that he went up there immediately (or almost immediately) after he was informed by Mrs. Churchill. By doing so, he must have walked through twice - going up to and returning from the guest room - the dinning room where Lizzie was, and he could not have missed to see her (no one could have missed to see Lizzie (and Alice) in that room except ...... Morse). So I permit me to conjecture that even though Mr. Sawyer didn't see - it's true - Lizzie's reactions when she was told the news, he could have testified to her reactions (which should have been the continuation of her very first reactions) shortly, very shortly, after the very first moment. Since Mr. Sawyer was asked to tell what he "saw" or "heard", and by answering this question he used "apparently", so I am pretty certain that, no matter if Lizzie was the killer and no matter if Lizzie was simulating her reactions, Mr. Sawyer was testifying what he had seen with his own eyes about Lizzie's reactions (almost) immediately after she was told that Abby was dead.

by the way, I would like to underline here that it was by Dr. Bowen's suggestion that Lizzie retuned into her room.

Franz, you conveniently left off the first sentence of Mr. Sawyer's statement. And reading further negates the entire argument you just made here.

Inquest page 140:
Q. Was Miss Lizzie present when Miss Russell told you that?
A. No, she had been taken up to her room at this time. When they came down and reported that her mother had been killed, she apparently went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit, I don't know exactly what, and Dr. Bowen said she better be carried up to her room.
Q. Which room was she taken to?
A. I don't know, I did not go up.

[Allen]

Franz, can you show any evidence that Dr. Bowen suggested she go up to her room other than Sawyer's testimony? Did Dr. Bowen himself state this? We know that nobody carried Lizzie up to her room she walked under her own power.

Allen, I most probably could not show any other evidence other than Sawyer's testimony. But I will question in this way: is there any more convincing evidence against Sawyer's testimony and makes it unreliable? If there isn't such an opposite evidence --- the lack of an affermative statement from the part of Dr. Bowen, in my opinion, isn't an oposite evidence, --- how could we doubt, how could we challenge Mr. Sawyer's testimony (in this specific case)?

And yes Franz, there is more convincing evidence. I was actually trying to direct you to look at Dr. Bowen's statements here. But you just went on about Mr. Sawyer. Sawyer did not see Lizzie's reaction. Dr. Bowen was not there at the time Mrs. Churchill and Bridget told Lizzie the body of Mrs. Borden had been found to see her reaction either. He was out sending the telegram. He was informed the body was found when he got back. Bowen testified that Lizzie did not seem faint when he saw her after coming down from viewing Mrs. Borden's body. But he did tell her she should go up to her room.

However, I find it highly unlikely that she had discovered her father's body and remained calm enough to call for Bridget to go running on her errands, but she collapsed in a faint or had a hysterical fit after being told Abby was dead.

Trial testimony Dr. Bowen page 325:

Q. Did you give her any direction then or shortly after?
A. I told her at that time -- Miss Russell went in with her at that time, and I told her she better go to her room.

Q. And did she start to go there?
A. Yes, sir.

[Franz]

Franz, you conveniently left off the first sentence of Mr. Sawyer's statement. And reading further negates the entire argument you just made here.

Inquest page 140:
Q. Was Miss Lizzie present when Miss Russell told you that?
A. No, she had been taken up to her room at this time. When they came down and reported that her mother had been killed, she apparently went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit, I don't know exactly what, and Dr. Bowen said she better be carried up to her room.
Q. Which room was she taken to?
A. I don't know, I did not go up.

Allen, Miss Russell went out from Lizzie's room and went downstairs to Sawyer to tell him Lizzie's worry about the story regarding that old man in the farm. All this occured afterwards, after Dr. Bowen returned, and after either that Lizzie "had been taken up to her room." In his testimony Sawyer continued to explain why Lizzie had been taken up into her room: because she "went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit" after knowing that Abby was dead, and when Dr. Bowen returned, he suggested to take Lizzie up in her room.

Now I put in chronological order the events that occured one after another, according to my understanding of the text:

1. Lizzie and Alice were in the dinning room; Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went upstairs to search for Abby.

2. Mrs. Churchill and Bridget went downstairs with the horrible news and they told it to Lizzie (and Alice). At that moment Mr. Sawyer was standing in the kitchen.

3. Mrs. Churchill went into the kitchen to inform Mr. Sawyer.

4. Mr. Sawyer could have gone immediately to the guest room, passing through the dinning room where Lizzie was. In my opinion, it was at that moment that Mr. Sawyer saw with his own eyes that Lizzie "apparently went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit" (he testified so afterwards). He went up, saw Abby's body, and went downstairs, when he passed through the dinning room for the second time, he should have testified again to Lizzie's reactions.

5. When Dr. Bowen returned, he saw Lizzie's physical and psycological conditions and suggested that she went up into her own room. And this occured.

6. (Much more later), while Mr. Sawyer was still there, the story "was going around with regard" to that old man working in the farm. Lizzie, who was in her room, somehow knew this story and worried for that old man, so she asked Alice to go downstairs to tell Mr. Sawyer that "she (Lizzie) was deeply concerned about it". That's why Mr. Sawyer said that when Alice told him this Lizzie was not there, because --- Sawyer explained --- Lizzie "had been sent up to her room at this time", and this had been suggested by Dr. Bowen, because of Lizzie's hysterical reactions.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Franz]

And yes Franz, there is more convincing evidence. I was actually trying to direct you to look at Dr. Bowen's statements here. But you just went on about Mr. Sawyer. Sawyer did not see Lizzie's reaction. Dr. Bowen was not there at the time Mrs. Churchill and Bridget told Lizzie the body of Mrs. Borden had been found to see her reaction either. He was out sending the telegram. He was informed the body was found when he got back. Bowen testified that Lizzie did not seem faint when he saw her after coming down from viewing Mrs. Borden's body. But he did tell her she should go up to her room.

However, I find it highly unlikely that she had discovered her father's body and remained calm enough to call for Bridget to go running on her errands, but she collapsed in a faint or had a hysterical fit after being told Abby was dead.

Trial testimony Dr. Bowen page 325:

Q. Did you give her any direction then or shortly after?
A. I told her at that time -- Miss Russell went in with her at that time, and I told her she better go to her room.

Q. And did she start to go there?
A. Yes, sir.

Allen, I know that "Dr. Bowen was not there at the time Mrs. Churchill and Bridget told Lizzie the body of Mrs. Borden had been found to see her reaction either. He was out sending the telegram. He was informed the body was found when he got back." But I don't understand what made you think that "Sawyer did not see Lizzie's reactions". Could you give my a more explicite explanation?

Yes, Sawyer said: "she (Lizzie) apparently went off into some kind of a swoon or hysterical fit, I dont know exactly what", and then, he added immediately: "and Dr. Bowen said she better be carried up to her room". But I think this doesn't mean that, after Lizzie was told Abby's death, Sawyer saw her for the first time only together with Dr. Bowen who just got back. Sawyer testified that Mrs. Churchill went into the kitchen to tell him the news when he was standing there. I think this should have occured immediately after Churchill told Lizzie the news, and then, Sawyer went to the guest room immediately, or almost. When he passed through the dinning room, he saw Lizzie's reactions. All this should have occured many minutes before Dr. Bowen got back. This is my understanding (Cf. my previous reply, the chronological order of the events, according to me.)

Thank you for the quotation of Dr. Bowen's testimony. I need to re-read alot.

[Allen]

Trial testimony of Charles Sawyer page 1476:

Q. Was there any portion of a time that you were inside the house that you were not at the door, except as you have told us, in the kitchen?
A. Yes, sir, there was a time.

Q. When was that?
A. When I went up to look at Mrs. Borden's body.

Q. Did anybody go with you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who?
A. I think at that time it was Officer Doherty , --- Dr. Bowen --- Officer Mulally, I think went up.

Q. How long did you stay upstairs there?
A. Oh, probably four or five minutes; I don't know exactly.

[PossumPie]

This whole discussion is strange. We know she found the father she loved hacked up, and calmly sent Bridget on errands, and calmly discussed funeral arrangements- BUT we are supposed to believe that upon HEARING about the woman she hated's death she...SWOONED? Nope. Someone is stretching the truth in testimonies !

[Franz]

Trial testimony of Charles Sawyer page 1476:

Q. Was there any portion of a time that you were inside the house that you were not at the door, except as you have told us, in the kitchen?
A. Yes, sir, there was a time.

Q. When was that?
A. When I went up to look at Mrs. Borden's body.

Q. Did anybody go with you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who?
A. I think at that time it was Officer Doherty , --- Dr. Bowen --- Officer Mulally, I think went up.

Q. How long did you stay upstairs there?
A. Oh, probably four or five minutes; I don't know exactly.

Thank you Allen, for the quotation of the trial testimony. I must cancel many things I said in my two previous posts.

However, could we state as a fact that Mr. Sawyer didn't see Lizzie's reactions?

[PossumPie]

I'm reposting this, b/c no one seems to think it is important...

This whole discussion is strange. We know she found the father she loved hacked up, and calmly sent Bridget on errands, and calmly discussed funeral arrangements- BUT we are supposed to believe that upon HEARING about the woman she hated's death she...SWOONED? Nope. Someone is stretching the truth in testimonies !

[Allen]

Possum, I had already made a statement such as this in my own post if you go up and read what I've said.

[Allen]

Franz, can you show any evidence that Dr. Bowen suggested she go up to her room other than Sawyer's testimony? Did Dr. Bowen himself state this? We know that nobody carried Lizzie up to her room she walked under her own power.

Allen, I most probably could not show any other evidence other than Sawyer's testimony. But I will question in this way: is there any more convincing evidence against Sawyer's testimony and makes it unreliable? If there isn't such an opposite evidence --- the lack of an affermative statement from the part of Dr. Bowen, in my opinion, isn't an oposite evidence, --- how could we doubt, how could we challenge Mr. Sawyer's testimony (in this specific case)?

And yes Franz, there is more convincing evidence. I was actually trying to direct you to look at Dr. Bowen's statements here. But you just went on about Mr. Sawyer. Sawyer did not see Lizzie's reaction. Dr. Bowen was not there at the time Mrs. Churchill and Bridget told Lizzie the body of Mrs. Borden had been found to see her reaction either. He was out sending the telegram. He was informed the body was found when he got back. Bowen testified that Lizzie did not seem faint when he saw her after coming down from viewing Mrs. Borden's body. But he did tell her she should go up to her room.

However, I find it highly unlikely that she had discovered her father's body and remained calm enough to call for Bridget to go running on her errands, but she collapsed in a faint or had a hysterical fit after being told Abby was dead.

Trial testimony Dr. Bowen page 325:

Q. Did you give her any direction then or shortly after?
A. I told her at that time -- Miss Russell went in with her at that time, and I told her she better go to her room.

Q. And did she start to go there?
A. Yes, sir.

[snokkums]

I can't picture Lizzie getting real hysterical. She just doesn't seem to be that kind of "out there". I read or heard something to the affect that the police were looking at her as a suspect because of her "strange" behavior. She didn't show any emotion. I think they thought that was very odd.

[Mara]

Hi. I drop in once every blue moon or so and rarely have anything to contribute, alas. If you don't mind an interloper, I'd like to ask a few things about the time period being discussed.

Does anyone here think it odd that anyone would suggest Lizzie go back up to her room so soon after the discovery of Abby's body? To do so, she would have had to pass by the presumably open door of the guest room to get to her own space, and once inside, she'd be still be only a few yards away from the ripening corpse and all the commotion bound to center on its removal. And why no concern for the possibility of an attacker still in hiding somewhere in the house?

So many people in this drama, not just Lizzie, seem to have behaved "contrariwise" in those first hours after the discovery. Have we changed that much in the intervening years?

[PossumPie]

Hi. I drop in once every blue moon or so and rarely have anything to contribute, alas. If you don't mind an interloper, I'd like to ask a few things about the time period being discussed.

Does anyone here think it odd that anyone would suggest Lizzie go back up to her room so soon after the discovery of Abby's body? To do so, she would have had to pass by the presumably open door of the guest room to get to her own space, and once inside, she'd be still be only a few yards away from the ripening corpse and all the commotion bound to center on its removal. And why no concern for the possibility of an attacker still in hiding somewhere in the house?

So many people in this drama, not just Lizzie, seem to have behaved "contrariwise" in those first hours after the discovery. Have we changed that much in the intervening years?

Hi Mara. I don't thing things have changed. People still act strangely during intense stress. You are correct. We should list everyone involved in the case, and all of the things they ALL DID STRANGE. One reason we can all have these entertaining discussions as to who may have done it is that we can list ANY PLAYER in the case, and make a long list of strange, suspicious, or stupid things they did. Even people like Dr. Bowen burned a note, Mrs. Churchill made odd statements, Bridget contradicted Lizzie, Lizzie contradicted everyone, Morse had "too airtight an alibi" and ate pears while the police were investigating the deaths. The whole reason this forum is so lively is that they ALL gave us ammunition for suspicion...that is a good title for a new thread!

[Mara]

Great new thread :)

[dalcanton]

I'm reposting this, b/c no one seems to think it is important...

This whole discussion is strange. We know she found the father she loved hacked up, and calmly sent Bridget on errands, and calmly discussed funeral arrangements- BUT we are supposed to believe that upon HEARING about the woman she hated's death she...SWOONED? Nope. Someone is stretching the truth in testimonies !

PossumPie - the same thought crossed my mind. Also, during the trial, Lizzie swooned when the actual skulls were brought in as evidence, but she didn't swoon when she saw her father hacked to a bloody mess in the flesh!

[Mara]

Is it possible that Abby's death was a surprise to Lizzie? That the murderer did it well in advance of Andrew's murder specifically to cast blame on her?

[Curryong]

I certainly think that if Lizzie didn't kill Abby that it would have come as a big surprise/shock. However, I think she would have had to have been just a teensy bit paranoid to think that an intruder did it in order for her to get the blame. As for her reaction to the news, if Lizzie did it she was probably thinking all the time "I have to get my story straight for the police" hence the cool demeanour that was remarked on by the first police officers on the scene. After all, if you are concentrating on something so important to your own safety you don't have time for hysteria, fainting etc. Unfortunately she was inconsistent in her statements to everyone.

[Franz]

I'm reposting this, b/c no one seems to think it is important...

This whole discussion is strange. We know she found the father she loved hacked up, and calmly sent Bridget on errands, and calmly discussed funeral arrangements- BUT we are supposed to believe that upon HEARING about the woman she hated's death she...SWOONED? Nope. Someone is stretching the truth in testimonies !

PossumPie - the same thought crossed my mind. Also, during the trial, Lizzie swooned when the actual skulls were brought in as evidence, but she didn't swoon when she saw her father hacked to a bloody mess in the flesh!

In my opinion there was nothing of strange in Lizzie's reactions. For some people a human skull whith the wounds on it is much more horrible than a murder scene.

[Mara]

Curryong, I'm re-reading my post above and muttering to myself, "What was I thinking? That's nonsense!" Thanks for a thoughtful response.

[PossumPie]

Curryong, I'm re-reading my post above and muttering to myself, "What was I thinking? That's nonsense!" Thanks for a thoughtful response.

No worries Mara, a good detective is flexable enough to accept that their first idea could be wrong. I started out reading about the Borden case believing Lizzie was totally innocent, and it was a stranger. The more I thought and read, the more I came to change my mind. I still am not 100% sure of her guilt, but I've given so much thought to the absurdity of some stranger slinking around the guest room for an hour and a half and not getting caught, I can't believe that Lizzie didn't have at least a part in it.