Water source for the Borden house.

[Miranda]

I am trying to get my "head" in the house, using my own experience with old houses. can someone tell me what the water source was, and where? I see a sink room, a kitchen and a privy, but where did the water for these come from? Hand pumps? City water source? Well on the property?

Also, did they cook and/or heat with coal or wood? I see wood rooms and coal bins in the basement.

The house was originally a 2 family house, if I understand right. Was it 2 "flats" One above the other? If so was there an exterior stairway to the top floor or was the small entry at the back a common area?

When I was a teenager my family lived in a huge farmhouse that was built in the 1850s. It had been partially burned during the civil war but was fairly intact. All the wiring and plumbing was added on, and was a nightmare to live with.

In that house there were at least 7 places I could have hidden a shoebox (or larger) and no one would ever have found it. there was a space at the top of a closet that would hold a fairly large item, and there was no way of knowing it was there. My Auntie used to hide Christmas presents in some of these spaces, and I never found them LOL. 2 of these I knew about because they were in my room. The rest I only knew about when we moved out, because Auntie checked to make sure they were empty.

That wasn't the only old house I've lived in, and you would be surprised how much space was wasted in some houses. Instead of using the nooks, they were just boarded over to make the rooms square up. I don't see much of that in the Borden house, but there are a few places that make me curious.

I thought about this when I saw the testimony that said they didn't take all the dresses out of the closet. I wonder if its possible that the hatchet was hidden in a "hidey hole" in that closet. It only needed to be hidden until the trial was over, then it could be taken out and disposed of. Or...Emma or Bridget could have disposed of it before that, if they were involved at all.

[leitskev]

I can answer some of the questions, but others here can answer much better. I've been in the house once.

It was originally 2 family, one on each floor. Lizzie's room was once the kitchen of the second floor apartment and still has cupboard draws to this day. There is no hallway upstairs.

The house is pretty small and simple compared to an old farmhouse. I doubt it had any such hiding places, and if it did it seems likely they would still be there and would be part of the conversation.

I'd love to hear any information people could add on the water situation, including the house next door, where 20 years previous another Borden's wife killed her children. I did not get to see the cellar when I visited. Not part of the tour.

[PossumPie]

There was water available inside the house...Bridget told Lizzie she could lock the screen door b/c she would get the water to wash the windows from the pump in the barn. That implies that there was a water source inside the house also. The stove in the kitchen was a wood fired stove, the coal was for a coal-fired furnace in the basement. The furnace heats a boiler that runs hot water through the radiators to heat the house.

Miranda, I rented an old home years ago that I could have hidden a hatchet, a shoebox, or other small object and NOBODY would have found them. There was a short piece of floorboard up against the wall that if you pushed on the edge against the floor molding it tilted up. I didn't own a safe at the time so kept my pistol there so it wouldn't be found if someone broke in. I also rented a 100 year old home for a counseling center, and it had hiding places all through it. It isn't that difficult to hide something in an old home.

[leitskev]

It occurs to me that maybe someone could ask the current owners of the house? What do they think? Could something have been hidden in their opinion? I would be curious to hear.

[Mara]

I've wondered about the pre-Borden's water situation, too. There was an old well house, apparently disused in 1892, since it was referred to as old then. The only picture I've seen of it does not reveal a pump. But when the house was a two-flat affair, that well may have served one of the families, and the pump Bridget referred to could have been for the second family.

I live in a 100+ year old farmhouse and I understand it once had a cistern just outside the porch on the kitchen's east side, and there was a pump on that porch; It had a slanting stone floor with a groove built into it to channel water to the ground just below the porch. No trace of it now, though.

I've been wondering if anyone in modern times has checked the walls of the house with a metal detector, or if the presence of pipes for water service would make that difficult. I known that in our house, there are places where, from up in the attic, you could drop something down between walls, never to be found. (Alas, modern-day insulation hasn't penetrated into all the places it should have.) Wasn't the Borden's attic unfinished except for Bridget's abode? How might one have accessed it? And another $64,000 question: Did Bridget dispose of the murder weapon in this fashion during her trip upstairs, ostensibly for a non-sleeping nap, within minutes of Andrew's murder?

[Aamartin]

There was a hand pump in the sink room off the kitchen. I believe there was also a pump in the cellar.

[Mara]

Ah, yes of course. Thank you. Would both have fed from that old well?

[Nadzieja]

I know the house had beautiful old cast iron radiators which are still used today. As far as water is concerned in the book Parallel Lives on pages 146 & 147 work was completed on June 19, 1874 . Two faucets were installed, one in the kitchen and one in the barn. In May of 1874 twelve miles of cast-iron water pipes had been laid and 100 service connections had been attached. Andrew put in an application & subsequent installation in his home within six months of first being offered to the citizens of Fall River. The water closet downstairs ran off of city water with a flushing mechanism that emptied into the city sewer system. These were in great use from the mid part of the 19th century until the ancestor of today's modern apparatus was developed in the 1890's.
The book states that the presence & use of chamber pots & slop pails by the Bordens continued. and this was clearly out of routine rather than necessity, as they had been the norm for so long. Outhouses were still prevalent at this time, and many were still required to walk to their backyard privies, similar to the one in the Borden barn.

This book has so much information on these types of things and also about customs and habits in Victorian times. I have learned such a great deal about the city. I love going there & walking the old streets in the Highland section.

[twinsrwe]

Thanks for the information, Nadzieja! That clears up a lot of misunderstandings regarding the Borden's use of slop pails and chamber pots.

The 'girls' didn't have it so bad after all.

[FactFinder]

Thank you so much for the information on the water sources of the time it was very helpful. Privies were indeed still very commonplace. The water closets and flush toilets, bath tubs, and things like this were becoming more common. But mostly still just for those that could afford such luxuries. It's also my understanding that both faucets were cold water only and that the water still had to be heated in order to do the dishes, laundry, cleaning, bathing, and anything else that required warm or hot water.

[Nadzieja]

I'm not sure about just being cold water. That is a big possibility, I didn't read anything concerning a water heater. I know in my hometown where there are many 3 decker homes you could rent a cold water flat a lot cheaper than one having both hot & cold water. Glad those days are over!

[Curryong]

Just a few quick MAD questions. Does anyone know whether the well and the old well-house on the Borden property were all locked uo, the well covered with a heavy block etc in 1892 or was it just left neglected and for the use of Bridget on outside tasks etc? How thoroughly and completely were the police searches done on this, as no doubt the well was the first thing thought of when extended searches began? What was the depth of this well and its dimensions? And was the old well on the next door (Churchill) property near to the boundary of the two properties and was that searched too? Thinking TEMPORARY hiding place just after Andrew's murder.

[PossumPie]

Just a few quick MAD questions. Does anyone know whether the well and the old well-house on the Borden property were all locked uo, the well covered with a heavy block etc in 1892 or was it just left neglected and for the use of Bridget on outside tasks etc? How thoroughly and completely were the police searches done on this, as no doubt the well was the first thing thought of when extended searches began? What was the depth of this well and its dimensions? And was the old well on the next door (Churchill) property near to the boundary of the two properties and was that searched too? Thinking TEMPORARY hiding place just after Andrew's murder.

I'm too lazy this morning to look up direct quotes, but I remember in the testimony the police specifically "searched" the well...not sure how, probably poles prodding into the mud/silt at the bottom. You make a good point that I have often thought...after the killings, it would not be difficult for Lizzie to slip into a neighbors yard to hide the hatchet. The neighbors were rather vigilant at watching out windows...BUT if you believe Lizzie innocent, then some person MUST have slipped past the neighbors eyes to get in, murder and get out without being seen. IF you admit that, then you must admit that Lizzie also could have slipped next door, and tossed the hatchet in a well or burn pit without being seen.
People get tired of me saying it, but there are a million places a person could hide a hatchet where it wouldn't be found in an old house. I think people are used to modern air-tight homes where everything is enclosed. My grandmother's home also had under her eves in the attic, spaces for a hatchet to be dropped between the walls or pushed under the sub-floor. As kids we used to treasure hunt all through the house. BTW, we also had chamber pots, but they were for convenience only, my Grandma had indoor toilets but she was from a time where there were none, so kept the pots around for 'middle of the night convenience. "

[Curryong]

Thank you for that, PossumPie. Thinking it over again however, that tiny window of opportunity after Andrew's murder and calling Bridget probably wouldn't allow it. The hatchet must have been quickly concealed in that house somewhere, probably in the cellar, and then perhaps removed elsewhere later.

[PossumPie]

Thank you for that, PossumPie. Thinking it over again however, that tiny window of opportunity after Andrew's murder and calling Bridget probably wouldn't allow it. The hatchet must have been quickly concealed in that house somewhere, probably in the cellar, and then perhaps removed elsewhere later.

There was about 5 min. time frame. I challenge you to an experiment, walk 2 min. out of your home, stand around for 1 min. then walk 2 min back home. I bet you are surprised as to how far you can get...I'll do the math for you. You can walk at a leisurely pace 704 feet in 2 min. this is 235 Yards, longer than 2 American football fields. Lizzie could have walked the length of a Football field, hidden an object, walked back, and had 2 min. extra time. Not a problem.

I've observed with this case people think things either take much longer or much shorter than reality to do. Someone said there was no way she could have cleaned up in the short time between killing Father and calling Bridget. I then set a 5 min. timer on my microwave, went upstairs quickly showered, dried off, changed clothes, and got down before the timer went off. I still have yet to hear from someone who took me up on my DARE to sit in a bedroom for an hour and a half doing nothing but staring at the door or looking out the window. There are people here who think that is easy to do, yet won't prove it by doing so...!

[FactFinder]

I am not quite sure what the experiment of sitting in a room looking at the door would accomplish. I've been sick at home and in bed with nothing but a television to keep me company. Looking at the four walls of my bedroom. But I don't think it's much different than a hospital patient who is stuck in their hospital bed sometimes for days with nothing but windows, a door, and a television set to occupy themselves. And their only reason for being there is they are ill it's not even of their choice. I've sat in waiting rooms waiting for babies to be born longer than that. Or in Victorian times, there was no television just the four walls and a door for those ill in bed. People back then sat in a house all day every day with none of our technology for amusement. Nobody would have found it off if one of the characters said they just sat up in their room for 90 minutes resting. Why would it be so hard for a killer to sit in the room with Abby? He'd killed her. He was aware she was dead and I doubt it shocked him in any way. Killing someone is not easy either, but people do it. Hiding in a room after killing someone would be easy if you had it in your mind that your job was not done yet. Andrew still needed to die. If the killer was so worried about being caught I venture to say he would never have committed murder in the first place. If the idea of being caught was indeed that scary for him I don't think he would have entered the house with murder on his mind. It takes some deliberation to sneak through a house full of people to kill someone in an upstairs bedroom.

Just to be clear, I believe Lizzie did it. I don't think any killer was ever up in a room for 90 minutes. But I think it rather odd that someone finds it so impossible that a person could sit in a room.

[FactFinder]

In the theory of a killer not being able to sit in a room because they would develop a fear of being caught so great they would flee the scene, there are a few elements that don't belong in my opinion. One is that most killers feel no remorse for what they have done. Another is that most of them have no conscience about what they have done to nag at them. The last one being that most killers do, in fact, consider themselves too smart to get caught.

[PossumPie]

In the theory of a killer not being able to sit in a room because they would develop a fear of being caught so great they would flee the scene, there are a few elements that don't belong in my opinion. One is that most killers feel no remorse for what they have done. Another is that most of them have no conscience about what they have done to nag at them. The last one being that most killers do, in fact, consider themselves too smart to get caught.

My point was that the killer had NO IDEA when Mr. Borden would get home, but yet came early in the morning, sneaked into the locked house, sneaked upstairs, killed Mrs. Borden, then sat and did nothing for 90 min. Not knowing when he would get home, not knowing if he had invited 12 police friends to come home with him for a cup of tea, not knowing if someone had seen them sneaking into the home and contacted the police. Just sit and think I'm gonna get caught, I'm gonna get caught, staring at a body for an hour and a half???? Sure it can be done, but time is relative. 90 min. "flys by" watching a good movie, but is almost unbearable sitting in a doctors office without magazines or TV. Ok...I'm obsessed with the idea that virtually no one would risk being caught and hanged by just sitting in a room with a dead body for an hour and a half. They have no idea if Lizzie or Bridget will come up and find them, they have no idea what Mr. Borden would do when he DID arrive home...he could have gone right back out, or gone down the basement, or whatever...but the killer was just "lucky enough" to creep downstairs and find him sleeping on a couch???????

[FactFinder]

Yes, it's possible. Not only because studying cases of actual murders where this lapse of time has happened demonstrates it, and because many people of the time were used to sitting in a room staring at the walls with no television. It also goes back to the killer sneaking into a house full of people in the first place (not thinking I might get caught?). I'm not saying I think Lizzie was innocent. But if by some chance evidence would come to light that Lizzie was innocent, and had no knowledge of the crimes, someone did do just that. And I don't like to project what I would probably be thinking onto someone I have no way of getting into the mind of to know.

[PossumPie]

Yes, it's possible. Not only because studying cases of actual murders where this lapse of time has happened demonstrates it, and because many people of the time were used to sitting in a room staring at the walls with no television. It also goes back to the killer sneaking into a house full of people in the first place (not thinking I might get caught?). I'm not saying I think Lizzie was innocent. But if by some chance evidence would come to light that Lizzie was innocent, and had no knowledge of the crimes, someone did do just that. And I don't like to project what I would probably be thinking onto someone I have no way of getting into the mind of to know.

IF proof beyond a shadow of a doubt came to light that it was a total stranger who sneaked into a locked house without being seen, sneeked upstairs, killed the only person he saw-Mrs. Borden- avoided killing Bridget or Lizzie, sat for an hour and a half, lucked into finding Andrew asleep, killed him, didn't get seen by Bridget or Lizzie, sneeked out didn't get seen by any neighbor...then he deserves not to be caught. Heck, he was the luckiest man alive. More power to him then...