From another point of view, always about the note and Morse

[PossumPie]

Back to Franz's tale for just a second. I agree with him that his crackpot theory interesting hypothesis allows only for two conspirators. The messenger is apparently the same person he imagines also passing along Morse's request for some personal article left behind in the Guest Chamber. The second (and only other) conspirator is the one who darts into the house while Abby is outside dealing with the messenger, heads directly for the Guest Chamber, then kills Abby and somehow manages to get the note out of her pocket. There. My job as apologist for Franz is done. Drinks all around.

Question for believers in the innocence of Lizzie who also believe Franz's story: How did Lizzie find out about the note if Abby went right upstairs to the Guest Chamber with it? And if, somehow, this exchange did take place, why didn't Abby also mention that Morse had left something behind and she was going to fetch it to give to this total stinger on the sidewalk to take to him? That actually seems a dishier thing to talk about than the note, and it would certainly be something Lizzie would have mentioned to the authorities along with the tale of the note. It would have strengthened her alibi and at the same time make Abby look like a fool, if we wish to believe she could be that catty.

My biggest problem ASIDE from the fact there is no evidence Morse disliked these two, is that Franz's theory involves not only the two at the house, but Morse also. THREE PEOPLE... Heck, half the town was in on the killings...Does anyone think that that many people could keep silent all those years?

[Franz]

Oh my God! always return to my theory, always! Why?

Does it mean that my theory is worth of refuting? It's an honor!

[twinsrwe]

… Going back to the stolen objects from Mrs. Borden's possessions, once the VIP passes were found to have been given to people by Lizzie, Mr. Borden dropped the whole criminal investigation. He had a knowledge of Lizzie's "indiscretions" and knew she had stolen them. I also think that if Andrew discovered Abby's body, with Emma out of town and only Bridget and Lizzie home, he would have had to have been suspicious of her.
As a side note, this is one cold woman. Look closely at the wording in her will:

28. I have not given my sister, Emma L. Borden, anything as she had her share of her father's
estate and is supposed to have enough to make her comfortable.
I know it seems trivial, but can you imagine talking about your dead father by saying "HER father" Wouldn't you have said "our father" This shows a coldness towards Emma (not surprising, they were not on speaking terms) but also a disconnect from Andrew.

Yes, I think Lizzie was a cold and selfish woman; she was an ‘all about Lizzie’ type of woman. Emma, on the other hand, was a woman who not only kept and followed through on her promises, but also had the determination to follow through on her responsibilities. As we know, shortly before Sarah died, she had extracted a promise from Emma to always look after little Lizzie. This is a promise Emma carried through on to her dying day, she never took that promise lightly. The same is true when she followed through on the agreement between her and Lizzie, after her departed from Maplecroft.

The agreement between Lizzie and Emma: Rebello, Leonard, Lizzie Borden Past & Present, Al-Zach Press, 1999, pages 312+. (Red underlining and highlighting are mine).

"After Emma's departure from Maplecroft, an agreement was drafted for Emma and Lizzie."

"Agreement

'Whereas Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden, of Fall River, Massachusetts, all equal owners in common of a certain lot of land containing about 34 5/8 rods of land and a dwelling house, thereon numbered 306 French Street, in said Fall River, and also of certain personal property located in said house, said lot being the same purchased by them of Charles M. Allen.

Now therefore we the said Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden do hereby covenant and agree, the one with the other as follows to wit, --

1. Said Lizzie shall have the right to exclusively use and occupy said premises and property as a home and place of residence so long as she chooses to do so during her natural life upon condition however that during such time she shall and does pay all water bills and taxes, make and pay for all necessary repairs in connection with the premises and property, keep the undivided half of said Emma in said premises and property insured against fire in the sum of sixty-hundred dollars ---, also $4,000 on the house and $2,000 on the contents ---, and also pay unto said Emma one hundred and fifteen dollars every six months for such use and occupation, the first payment to be made January first A.D. 1906 for six months in advance. .

2. If said Lizzie shall before her death cease to use or occupy said premises and property as foresaid, then forthwith said house and property shall be put into the hands of Charles C. Cook of said Fall River as broker to sell the same at private sale or public auction as he deems expedient, or in case of his decease, in the hands of some other broker to be designated by Andrew J. Jennings and said personal property shall be divided by the parties, or if they cannot agree upon a division, be sold in the same manner as the real estate, the proceeds of such sale after deducting expenses to be divided equally between the parties.

3. Neither party shall during life except as therein before, provided sell, mortgage, lease or otherwise dispose of her said undivided interest without consent of the other.

4. Said Emma and Lizzie shall each provide by will or otherwise so that in case the said undivided interest has not been sold or disposed of as aforesaid the same shall go and belong to the other if she survives her.'

In witness Whereof we the said Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden have hereto set our hands and seals this twelfth day of October A.D. 1905."

"Emma L. Borden Seal
Lizzie A Borden Seal"

PossumPie, you have already provided us with Lizzie’s Last Will and Testament regarding Emma.

Now this is Emma’s Last Will and Testament:

SIXTH: If my sister, Lizzie A. Borden, shall survive me and I shall own an interest at the time of my death in that tract of land with the dwelling house thereon situated on the northerly side of French Street, in said Fall River, and being the same premises now occupied by my sister and which were purchased by my sister and myself of Charles M. Allen, then I give, devise and bequeath all my right, title and interest in and to said tract of land and the improvements thereon, to my said sister, Lizzie A. Borden, and all my interest in and to the household furniture in said house or upon said premises. If, however, at the time of my death I shall have disposed of my interest in said tract of land located on French Street and in the contents of the house, and my said sister, Lizzie A. Borden, shall survive me, then I give and bequeath to my said sister the sum of One Thousand Dollars ($1,000).

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... asWill.pdf

Since the agreement reads "by will or otherwise", and giving Lizzie the benefit of doubt, perhaps there could have been another document by Lizzie that we are not aware of. But then, again, perhaps there is not any other document, and Lizzie just did not follow through on her part of the agreement.

[Franz]

Back to Franz's tale for just a second. I agree with him that his crackpot theory interesting hypothesis allows only for two conspirators. The messenger is apparently the same person he imagines also passing along Morse's request for some personal article left behind in the Guest Chamber. The second (and only other) conspirator is the one who darts into the house while Abby is outside dealing with the messenger, heads directly for the Guest Chamber, then kills Abby and somehow manages to get the note out of her pocket. There. My job as apologist for Franz is done. Drinks all around.

Question for believers in the innocence of Lizzie who also believe Franz's story: How did Lizzie find out about the note if Abby went right upstairs to the Guest Chamber with it? And if, somehow, this exchange did take place, why didn't Abby also mention that Morse had left something behind and she was going to fetch it to give to this total stinger on the sidewalk to take to him? That actually seems a dishier thing to talk about than the note, and it would certainly be something Lizzie would have mentioned to the authorities along with the tale of the note. It would have strengthened her alibi and at the same time make Abby look like a fool, if we wish to believe she could be that catty.

Thank you, Mara. But two points:

1. In my theory, when Abby was talking with the messenger, Lizzie closed herself in her room, maybe for her menstrual matter. When the conversation finished and Abby went into the house, in the front hall she met Lizzie who was going downstairs from her room. They had their last conversation there and Abby mentioned to her the note story, and asked Lizze if she needed something for lunch. And then, Lizzie went to the cellor to use the water-closet (always for her mentrual matter). Meanwhile Bridget was chatting with Mary. That's why neither Bridget nor Lizzie heard anything when Abby was killed in the guest room.

2. In my theory the messenger asked Abby to bring the watch (or something else of Morse) to her alleged sick friend's home. Morse would go there to meet Abby and to take the watch. (Certainly, all this was nothing else but a fabrication of Morse in order to deceive Abby to go into the guest room, to be killed there). Abby would not give the watch to the messenger who should be a stranger to Abby.

[PossumPie]

Back to Franz's tale for just a second. I agree with him that his crackpot theory interesting hypothesis allows only for two conspirators. The messenger is apparently the same person he imagines also passing along Morse's request for some personal article left behind in the Guest Chamber. The second (and only other) conspirator is the one who darts into the house while Abby is outside dealing with the messenger, heads directly for the Guest Chamber, then kills Abby and somehow manages to get the note out of her pocket. There. My job as apologist for Franz is done. Drinks all around.

Question for believers in the innocence of Lizzie who also believe Franz's story: How did Lizzie find out about the note if Abby went right upstairs to the Guest Chamber with it? And if, somehow, this exchange did take place, why didn't Abby also mention that Morse had left something behind and she was going to fetch it to give to this total stinger on the sidewalk to take to him? That actually seems a dishier thing to talk about than the note, and it would certainly be something Lizzie would have mentioned to the authorities along with the tale of the note. It would have strengthened her alibi and at the same time make Abby look like a fool, if we wish to believe she could be that catty.

Thank you, Mara. But two points:

1. In my theory, when Abby was talking with the messenger, Lizzie closed herself in her room, maybe for her menstrual matter. When the conversation finished and Abby went into the house, in the front hall she met Lizzie who was going downstairs from her room. They had their last conversation there and Abby mentioned to her the note story, and asked Lizze if she needed something for lunch. And then, Lizzie went to the cellor to use the water-closet (always for her mentrual matter). Meanwhile Bridget was chatting with Mary. That's why neither Bridget nor Lizzie heard anything when Abby was killed in the guest room.

2. In my theory the messenger asked Abby to bring the watch (or something else of Morse) to her alleged sick friend's home. Morse would go there to meet Abby and to take the watch. (Certainly, all this was nothing else but a fabrication of Morse in order to deceive Abby to go into the guest room, to be killed there). Abby would not give the watch to the messenger who should be a stranger to Abby.

What would have happened if Lizzie were on the steps when the guy sneaked in? What would have happened if meeting Abby on the stairs, Lizzie turned around and followed Abby into the guest room to continue the conversation? What was the killer expecting to do if upon sneaking into the front hall, Lizzie and Bridget were both standing there talking? How do you explain the night lock being locked from the night before? There is just way, way too many precise coincidences that had to take place or the plan would have failed.

[FactFinder]

Oh my God! always return to my theory, always! Why?

Does it mean that my theory is worth of refuting? It's an honor!

Yes, Franz, I did see that you have tried to steer the conversation away from your original theory and invite others to surmise on their own. I'm sorry I didn't have anything to add other than Abby might have lied about the note for her own reasons. Somehow the conversation does still seem to keep circling back to your theory of Morse and the two intruders.

[FactFinder]

… Going back to the stolen objects from Mrs. Borden's possessions, once the VIP passes were found to have been given to people by Lizzie, Mr. Borden dropped the whole criminal investigation. He had a knowledge of Lizzie's "indiscretions" and knew she had stolen them. I also think that if Andrew discovered Abby's body, with Emma out of town and only Bridget and Lizzie home, he would have had to have been suspicious of her.
As a side note, this is one cold woman. Look closely at the wording in her will:

28. I have not given my sister, Emma L. Borden, anything as she had her share of her father's
estate and is supposed to have enough to make her comfortable.
I know it seems trivial, but can you imagine talking about your dead father by saying "HER father" Wouldn't you have said "our father" This shows a coldness towards Emma (not surprising, they were not on speaking terms) but also a disconnect from Andrew.

Yes, I think Lizzie was a cold and selfish woman; she was an ‘all about Lizzie’ type of woman. Emma, on the other hand, was a woman who not only kept and followed through on her promises, but also had the determination to follow through on her responsibilities. As we know, shortly before Sarah died, she had extracted a promise from Emma to always look after little Lizzie. This is a promise Emma carried through on to her dying day, she never took that promise lightly. The same is true when she followed through on the agreement between her and Lizzie, after her departed from Maplecroft.

The agreement between Lizzie and Emma: Rebello, Leonard, Lizzie Borden Past & Present, Al-Zach Press, 1999, pages 312+. (Red underlining and highlighting are mine).

"After Emma's departure from Maplecroft, an agreement was drafted for Emma and Lizzie."

"Agreement

'Whereas Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden, of Fall River, Massachusetts, all equal owners in common of a certain lot of land containing about 34 5/8 rods of land and a dwelling house, thereon numbered 306 French Street, in said Fall River, and also of certain personal property located in said house, said lot being the same purchased by them of Charles M. Allen.

Now therefore we the said Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden do hereby covenant and agree, the one with the other as follows to wit, --

1. Said Lizzie shall have the right to exclusively use and occupy said premises and property as a home and place of residence so long as she chooses to do so during her natural life upon condition however that during such time she shall and does pay all water bills and taxes, make and pay for all necessary repairs in connection with the premises and property, keep the undivided half of said Emma in said premises and property insured against fire in the sum of sixty-hundred dollars ---, also $4,000 on the house and $2,000 on the contents ---, and also pay unto said Emma one hundred and fifteen dollars every six months for such use and occupation, the first payment to be made January first A.D. 1906 for six months in advance. .

2. If said Lizzie shall before her death cease to use or occupy said premises and property as foresaid, then forthwith said house and property shall be put into the hands of Charles C. Cook of said Fall River as broker to sell the same at private sale or public auction as he deems expedient, or in case of his decease, in the hands of some other broker to be designated by Andrew J. Jennings and said personal property shall be divided by the parties, or if they cannot agree upon a division, be sold in the same manner as the real estate, the proceeds of such sale after deducting expenses to be divided equally between the parties.

3. Neither party shall during life except as therein before, provided sell, mortgage, lease or otherwise dispose of her said undivided interest without consent of the other.

4. Said Emma and Lizzie shall each provide by will or otherwise so that in case the said undivided interest has not been sold or disposed of as aforesaid the same shall go and belong to the other if she survives her.'

In witness Whereof we the said Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden have hereto set our hands and seals this twelfth day of October A.D. 1905."

"Emma L. Borden Seal
Lizzie A Borden Seal"

PossumPie, you have already provided us with Lizzie’s Last Will and Testament regarding Emma.

Now this is Emma’s Last Will and Testament:

SIXTH: If my sister, Lizzie A. Borden, shall survive me and I shall own an interest at the time of my death in that tract of land with the dwelling house thereon situated on the northerly side of French Street, in said Fall River, and being the same premises now occupied by my sister and which were purchased by my sister and myself of Charles M. Allen, then I give, devise and bequeath all my right, title and interest in and to said tract of land and the improvements thereon, to my said sister, Lizzie A. Borden, and all my interest in and to the household furniture in said house or upon said premises. If, however, at the time of my death I shall have disposed of my interest in said tract of land located on French Street and in the contents of the house, and my said sister, Lizzie A. Borden, shall survive me, then I give and bequeath to my said sister the sum of One Thousand Dollars ($1,000).

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... asWill.pdf

Since the agreement reads "by will or otherwise", and giving Lizzie the benefit of doubt, perhaps there could have been another document by Lizzie that we are not aware of. But then, again, perhaps there is not any other document, and Lizzie just did not follow through on her part of the agreement.

I echo almost the same thoughts about Emma and Lizzie twinsrwe. Emma seems the more quiet, reserved type. We hear very little about her at all after the murders. She appears to have enjoyed the company of others but had no desire to own a home of her own. She had plenty of money to buy a home if she so chose. But at the time of her death she lived in New Hampshire where almost nobody knew her identity. Lizzie lived in a fine big house in Fall River and enjoyed socializing at theater parties and such. I wonder if Sarah had lived if things might not have been very different.

[Mara]

I'm not really sure, if Andrew owned a property outright and had the deed, who would have had to know about the intention to transfer property into Abby's name until they walked into the office and stated that they wished to transfer the property. Or anyone else who had to know about the intention to make a will until Andrew or Abby made arrangements to do it. To be clear, I wasn't stating it was already drawn up and ready to be signed, or that anything had been signed. But the intention to do so could have been there. There is some evidence that Abby had been taking stock of Andrew's assets and making a list of what he owned.

Good thinking. Do you think Abby might have been up to something behind Andrew's back, though? Because in those days, women didn't have much in the way of independent property rights. And Andrew's affairs would have been his own, as far as banks and lawyers were concerned. Wouldn't any sort of investigation on her part have met with a stone wall?

[Mara]

Let me rephrase my question to Franz about the watch (or whatever) that the messenger asked Abby to fetch. I understand that Franz is now clarifying that the messenger would have told Abby to take the watch (or whatever) to the sick friend's house for Morse to collect.

If you believe in Lizzie's innocence, and Abby did indeed report to Lizzie that she'd received this note, why would she not also have told Lizzie that she would be taking Morse's watch (or whatever) with her as well, at his request? It would have made her story a stronger one.

And two follow-up questions:

1. How would Morse know this friend, well enough to send a messenger with a note to Abby about her/him? His visits to Fall River were related to, well, relations, and their business affairs.

2. Again (and again and again) Why would Morse want Abby and Andrew killed? You continue to avoid discussion of motive.

[Curryong]

Mara, earlier you posted about poor old Abby working something behind Andrew's back with regard to his property. Perhaps Abby was making some sort of list/ inventory under Andrew's supervision or instruction. This of course feeds into my pure speculation that Andrew WAS intending to draw up his will, not on that particular Thursday but soon. I think he discussed that intention with John Morse, whom he trusted and liked, the blood uncle to his 'girls'. It's my belief that somehow Lizzie either suspected this, got wind of it, overheard conversation which she interpreted as the making of a will, whatever, and quietly brooded on it. I believe she had planned to murder Abby anyway, but this hurried things up.
And Franz, for the love of God please stop making up stories about mysterious businessmen wanting to get Andrew, which you put forward in another thread, and give your fellow posters some hint of a VIABLE MOTIVE.

[FactFinder]

I found these transcriptions of newspaper articles that had been posted by Kat and Harry. I do not have access to the hard copy of the articles myself so forgive me for copying and pasting them from the archives:

Evening Standard
Monday, August 8, 1892 on Page 8

ANOTHER IMPORTANT FACT.

Mr. Borden Was Making an
Inventory of His Property.

With the Expectation of Having His
Will Drawn up.

Police Making a Rigid Search of the
House Where Crime Was Committed.

Fall River, Aug. 6. --- Up to 4 o'clock this afternoon no arrests had been made in the Borden murder case.

District Attorney's Investigation.

Advices from Marion, where District Attorney Knowlton is staying at his summer residence, say that he will probably be in Fall River Monday or Tuesday, when an investigation will be held at the Borden residence.

Mr. Borden Left No Will.

One piece of information came to the knowledge of the police this afternoon which, in light of recent events, has a peculiar significance. It is stated that Mr. Borden left no will, but for the week previous to his death he had been making an inventory of his property, preparatory to having an instrument drawn. . . .


"IN MRS. BORDEN’S POCKET.

Bit of Paper Found Which
May Be Important.

Memorandum That Shows Her Interest
in Mr. Borden’s Property.

Contains List of His Investments in
Local Enterprises.

FALL RIVER, Mass., Feb. 17. – Shortly after the murders at the Borden house the wearing apparel and other personal effects of Mrs. Borden were turned over by the stepdaughters to her immediate heirs.
In the pocket of one of the garments a paper was found which is regarded as a significant piece of testimony. ......... It is reported that among Mrs. Borden’s effects a memorandum has been found which suggests that at some time or other she was more directly interested in her husband’s property than has been generally supposed. A list, written by her, of some $80,000 worth of stocks in the Troy mill, the Merchants’ Manufacturing Company and other first-class corporations, has been discovered, and that her attention was called to it at a comparatively recent date is proved by the fact that she wrote the word ‘sold’ opposite a certain number of shares in the Globe Street railway company.
“Whether this memorandum was dictated by Mr. Borden is not known, but it is not improbable that he contemplated giving his wife these stocks as her portion of his property, leaving the real estate to be divided between the daughters.
“The list contains substantially a record of all of Mr. Borden’s investments in local ventures. It may or may not have any significance, but it certainly suggests that the money question was discussed occasionally in the household.”

[Mara]

Curryong, I think it was Aamartin who first mentioned that possibility. My comment was a follow-up supposition that's part of the whole note scenario that I don't buy into at all. But I see your point and we can consider that totally apart from any note. I still think, though, that news of such doing would have leaked out by now if they were truly under way. After all, such things take planning, documents have to be drawn up and so on.

Edited to add: I should have read FactFinder's post, next after yours, containing newspaper quotes about this very issue. Did the alleged piece of paper found on Abby's person appear as evidence in the trial, or among any known materials collected during the investigation, or is this all just "nooze"?

[Curryong]

FactFinder has found some very interesting earlier information. Thank you FactFinder! I don't mean, Mara, that I believe that Andrew's will was in the process of being drawn up, just that, (pure speculation), he may have been thinking along those lines. After all, if you factor in the fact that Andrew wasn't getting any younger, Abby's panic about being poisoned, the trouble about property two years previously, and the toxic atmosphere of the Borden home, he MAY have decided to get things sorted. I don't think he would have discussed what was being thought of with his daughters. With most families wealth, property etc. divided into thirds would be considered acceptable. Not with the Borden sisters, I fear.

[PossumPie]

Let's clear some things up. If a person dies "intestate" (without a will) in Massachusetts, the children get half, and the spouse get's the other half. In this case, Emma would have gotten 1/4, Lizzie 1/4, and Abby would have gotten the remaining half of the estate.
Interestingly, in Massachusetts, if a Step Mother dies, the step-children get nothing. BUT if her spouse survives her (even for a few minutes as in a traffic accident) her estate goes to her husband, then upon his death to his kids.

When an estate is substantial (Say over $100,000) it almost always goes to court, especially when there is disagreement between surviving spouse and the step-kids.

A will throws ALL rules out. Probate could go on for years, b/c anyone can lay claim to their share of the estate. IF there were an Andrew Borden will, and if he left it all to Abby, the girls could have contested it.

[Curryong]

I suppose Andrew could have been a wuss and. thought that making a will (especially one that would satisfy his daughters) was just too difficult.
Therefore he was going to leave it to the inheritance laws of the State of to split the spoils on his behalf. Interesting! If he had flopped over and had a heart attack when he got up that Thursday morning leaving Abby alive, then Lizzie and Emma would have been reasonably well-off but not über-rich.

[FactFinder]

Let's clear some things up. If a person dies "intestate" (without a will) in Massachusetts, the children get half, and the spouse get's the other half. In this case, Emma would have gotten 1/4, Lizzie 1/4, and Abby would have gotten the remaining half of the estate.
Interestingly, in Massachusetts, if a Step Mother dies, the step-children get nothing. BUT if her spouse survives her (even for a few minutes as in a traffic accident) her estate goes to her husband, then upon his death to his kids.

When an estate is substantial (Say over $100,000) it almost always goes to court, especially when there is disagreement between surviving spouse and the step-kids.

A will throws ALL rules out. Probate could go on for years, b/c anyone can lay claim to their share of the estate. IF there were an Andrew Borden will, and if he left it all to Abby, the girls could have contested it.

PossumPie can I ask where you got this information from? Because this was not my understanding of the statues of the time as I have read them. Thanks.

[Aamartin]

Let's clear some things up. If a person dies "intestate" (without a will) in Massachusetts, the children get half, and the spouse get's the other half. In this case, Emma would have gotten 1/4, Lizzie 1/4, and Abby would have gotten the remaining half of the estate.
Interestingly, in Massachusetts, if a Step Mother dies, the step-children get nothing. BUT if her spouse survives her (even for a few minutes as in a traffic accident) her estate goes to her husband, then upon his death to his kids.

When an estate is substantial (Say over $100,000) it almost always goes to court, especially when there is disagreement between surviving spouse and the step-kids.

A will throws ALL rules out. Probate could go on for years, b/c anyone can lay claim to their share of the estate. IF there were an Andrew Borden will, and if he left it all to Abby, the girls could have contested it.

PossumPie can I ask where you got this information from? Because this was not my understanding of the statues of the time as I have read them. Thanks.

I think the laws were different in 1892

[Mara]

FactFinder has found some very interesting earlier information. Thank you FactFinder! I don't mean, Mara, that I believe that Andrew's will was in the process of being drawn up, just that, (pure speculation), he may have been thinking along those lines. After all, if you factor in the fact that Andrew wasn't getting any younger, Abby's panic about being poisoned, the trouble about property two years previously, and the toxic atmosphere of the Borden home, he MAY have decided to get things sorted. I don't think he would have discussed what was being thought of with his daughters. With most families wealth, property etc. divided into thirds would be considered acceptable. Not with the Borden sisters, I fear.

Gotcha. So all this sorting out would not have gotten to the stage of bankers/lawyers knowing anything about it, like to draw up pertinent documents, or even lists of assets. That would explain why nothing about that level of activity came to light.

[Mara]

Here's something interesting to those interested in the probate climate in 1892 Massachusetts. It's supplementary, of course, but still fascinating. And free (you'll need a Google ID and password): https://play.google.com/store/books/det ... AwAQAAMAAJ

[Franz]

Let me rephrase my question to Franz about the watch (or whatever) that the messenger asked Abby to fetch. I understand that Franz is now clarifying that the messenger would have told Abby to take the watch (or whatever) to the sick friend's house for Morse to collect.

If you believe in Lizzie's innocence, and Abby did indeed report to Lizzie that she'd received this note, why would she not also have told Lizzie that she would be taking Morse's watch (or whatever) with her as well, at his request? It would have made her story a stronger one.

And two follow-up questions:

1. How would Morse know this friend, well enough to send a messenger with a note to Abby about her/him? His visits to Fall River were related to, well, relations, and their business affairs.

2. Again (and again and again) Why would Morse want Abby and Andrew killed? You continue to avoid discussion of motive.

Mara, and others,

I am not avoiding nothing. It has been always a pleasure for me to discuss my theory. But I posted this new thread for another purpose, that’s why I entitled it “From another point of view…”

For example: I am more convinced of Lizzie’s innocence. Changing my mind, I would say: if Lizzie was guilty, I think she didn’t leave the house because she knew well that she herself was the killer, therefore there was no danger for her in the house; Lizzie didn’t suspect Bridget because she knew that she herself was the killer; she lied in her barn story because at that moment she was killing her father; the weapon was not found, probably she had hidden it in a very secret place in the house; she was immaculately clean because probably she didn’t catch many blood and she easily cleaned her up. She killed probably for money…

In the past I posted almost nothing in this manner, not because I am more convinced of her innocence, therefore I refuse to consider the case in this way, but just because I have nothing of new to add for the Lizzie being guilty theory.

New, I invite you to consider the case under the hypothesis that Lizzie was innocent. Most of you --- if not all of you --- are very convinced of her guilt. If you change your mind for a moment and consider the case assuming that the killer was an intruder, you can probably give very interesting contribution to the discussion. Someone could say (just an example): if so, I think the intruder could have entered from the side door, at what o’clock, etc…; another one: if so, I think Dr. Bowen could have been involved somehow in the murder; Abby was killed with her house clothes because…, etc, etc.

But according to what I read here, I think I am not fully understood. Or maybe I was understood well, but many of you don't consider, or refuse to consider the case from another point of view, one different of your own. Instead, you return always to my theory. Here is not the place for this. Every thread has its subject, right? To be honest I am a little disappointed.

(Mara and Curryong, and others, for Morse’s motive I have said all I can say in many previous posts of mine under other threads. And for the moment I have nothing of new to add. I’m sorry. And I beg you for another time to not discuss my theory here, under this thread. Thank you, girls and guys.)

[Franz]

Curryong, I think it was Aamartin who first mentioned that possibility. My comment was a follow-up supposition that's part of the whole note scenario that I don't buy into at all. But I see your point and we can consider that totally apart from any note. I still think, though, that news of such doing would have leaked out by now if they were truly under way. After all, such things take planning, documents have to be drawn up and so on.

Edited to add: I should have read FactFinder's post, next after yours, containing newspaper quotes about this very issue. Did the alleged piece of paper found on Abby's person appear as evidence in the trial, or among any known materials collected during the investigation, or is this all just "nooze"?

I hope I understand well your post.

Every has his / her opinion: You don't buy into at all the note story, considering that it didn't exist. Well.

However, I think this doesn't mean that you couldn't try to find an explanation of the note, assuming that it did exist.

Certainly, you are totally free to choose to not do so.

[Mara]

Franz the "note scenario that I don't buy into at all" is the one that is part of the theory you have presented in this forum, if not this thread. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to a more plausible theory.

I believe many of us here would be happy to consider other possibilities for an intruder as murderer. None that I'm aware of has ever been proposed that fits the information we have -- considered dispassionately as well as with some insight into the possible psychological characters of the key players. That's not to say that more information couldn't come to light someday that would change this.

It's amusing to deconstruct "what if" diegeses and I admire people who can come up with good ones for this purpose. I wonder, do you have some other ideas about an intruder that you would like us to discuss?

[Curryong]

I am sorry that you are disappointed Franz. It must be very difficult posting on this board when you know that most of your fellow posters are sceptical of Lizzie's innocence. As a newbie I have noticed that your threads always promote a lot of argument and exchanges of information about the Borden case, which can only be a good thing, no? Sometimes we tease with regard to the way you view the case and perhaps some of this is lost in translation!

[PossumPie]

Back to Franz's tale for just a second. I agree with him that his crackpot theory interesting hypothesis allows only for two conspirators. The messenger is apparently the same person he imagines also passing along Morse's request for some personal article left behind in the Guest Chamber. The second (and only other) conspirator is the one who darts into the house while Abby is outside dealing with the messenger, heads directly for the Guest Chamber, then kills Abby and somehow manages to get the note out of her pocket. There. My job as apologist for Franz is done. Drinks all around.

Question for believers in the innocence of Lizzie who also believe Franz's story: How did Lizzie find out about the note if Abby went right upstairs to the Guest Chamber with it? And if, somehow, this exchange did take place, why didn't Abby also mention that Morse had left something behind and she was going to fetch it to give to this total stinger on the sidewalk to take to him? That actually seems a dishier thing to talk about than the note, and it would certainly be something Lizzie would have mentioned to the authorities along with the tale of the note. It would have strengthened her alibi and at the same time make Abby look like a fool, if we wish to believe she could be that catty.

According to Franz, Abby going up the stairs met Lizzie coming down from her room and told her about the note. My disbelief stems from the fact that a Victorian woman is not going to say "A sick friend" but more like "That sweet mrs. Johnson who has the elderly husband" "A sick friend" sounds like a bad soap opera.

BTW, there ARE 3 conspirators in his theory, the two at the house AND MORSE. Does anyone really think three people all in on this and nobody told a single person? that 3 men could keep a secret that long????

[Curryong]

I'm not the sort of person who immediately adopts conspiracy theories anyway (I happen to think for instance that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone nutter who got lucky) and I certainly think, where murder is concerned, once you share such a plan with another person you put yourself in their power. What if either of these other conspirators had confessed what had been done to another person and shown proof by letter or something. Blackmail of Morse would have been a distinct possibility. Instead, according to Franz's theory we have three separate individuals who were quite content to live in obscurity and silence for the rest of their days, never confiding in wife, siblings, best friend or anyone else. Sorry, don't buy it!

[Mara]

PossumPie: I see what you mean by three conspirators when you consider the absent Morse as one. Sorry for missing that glaringly obvious point! I hate when I do that....

[PossumPie]

PossumPie: I see what you mean by three conspirators when you consider the absent Morse as one. Sorry for missing that glaringly obvious point! I hate when I do that....

No worries...You have some great posts and are a welcome addition to the forum!

[Aamartin]

I'm not the sort of person who immediately adopts conspiracy theories anyway (I happen to think for instance that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone nutter who got lucky) and I certainly think, where murder is concerned, once you share such a plan with another person you put yourself in their power. What if either of these other conspirators had confessed what had been done to another person and shown proof by letter or something. Blackmail of Morse would have been a distinct possibility. Instead, according to Franz's theory we have three separate individuals who were quite content to live in obscurity and silence for the rest of their days, never confiding in wife, siblings, best friend or anyone else. Sorry, don't buy it!

I agree....

The problem with conspiracy theories is the age old adage-- 2 can keep a secret as long as one of them is dead

[Curryong]

Yes, always best, I feel, to be the last man (or woman) standing in a situation like that.

[PossumPie]

I agree. The problem with multiple people involved in a homicide is that someone ends up talking. Either bragging to cell-mate like Susan Atkins of the Manson Clan, or cutting a deal after arrest for another crime like Kenneth Bianchi did in the Hillside Strangler cases. People who make a hobby of killing usually roll over and confess past crimes either to look big in the eyes of others, or to try to cut some kind of deal. I just cannot fathom two murderers went through the rest of their pathetic lives without bragging to SOMEONE "I was the one who killed the Bordens!" It was the biggest murder case until the Lindbergh baby case a few years later. Morse could never have slept at night knowing the most famous murder case of the day could be solved by two hoodlums.

[Franz]

Franz, you are putting an intruder inside the house in the guest room ready to kill Abby sometime before 9:30. He would have had the opportunity to have already made his way up to the room and been in there waiting? When did this window of opportunity occur? This entails him getting past Bridget, Lizzie, Abby, and possibly Andrew depending on how early you want to put him inside the house. Bridget and Abby remained on the first floor except when Abby went upstairs to the guest room the first time to fix the bed and came back down. So the killer could not have been up there when Abby went up the first time around 9 o'clock. So he had to get inside after that. When in the world would an intruder have had time to sneak inside and be waiting in the guest room before 9:30 unseen by Bridget who was doing chores in the kitchen, Lizzie who had come down stairs by that time, and Abby herself who was also very much alive before she met her end in the guest room?

FactFinder herself said that in the forum no one listens. According to what she wrote here, I am pretty sure she didn't read carefully what I had said.

[MysteryReader]

Okay, I admit that I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but here's something- what if a female wrote the note to Abby (not sure where it went to, however) but didn't women obey their husbands back during that time? What if he told her that he didn't want to be involved in things and she wasn't to come forward admitting she wrote it? I know it's a tad stretchy but anyways, it's something I'm thinking about.

Oh, and I'm sorry if this comes across the wrong way but can people break up their LONG posts? It's hard to read and understand these long posts without breaks.

[Curryong]

The trouble is that practically everything that I have ever read says that Abby had few friends, (because she didn't go out much) and the only woman she was really devoted to (whom she would out and see in an instant if sick) was Mrs Whitehead and possibly her children. As we know, Mrs Whitehead and her husband were at the annual police clambake.

I'm sure there were some women who were under their husband's thumb in the Victorian era, and a few where it was vice-versa! I can't imagine, though, that anyone who was fond of Abby would keep quiet about receiving a note from her. They would want the person caught. The whole city was in a state of terror in those first few days.

[MysteryReader]

The trouble is that practically everything that I have ever read says that Abby had few friends, (because she didn't go out much) and the only woman she was really devoted to (whom she would out and see in an instant if sick) was Mrs Whitehead and possibly her children. As we know, Mrs Whitehead and her husband were at the annual police clambake.

I'm sure there were some women who were under their husband's thumb in the Victorian era, and a few where it was vice-versa! I can't imagine, though, that anyone who was fond of Abby would keep quiet about receiving a note from her. They would want the person caught. The whole city was in a state of terror in those first few days.

Okay, I wasn't sure. How did you figure they were at the police clambake? See, this is why I need to read the other books and have asked to borrow them or would I find this sort of information in the previous threads?

[Curryong]

I'll have to go through my notes and remember. My guess is that the police would have called on her and she would have told them, or she would have come forward and told them. Remember, the police were desperate to trace who the note was from and, besides Andrew, Sarah Whitehead was closest to Abby.

The day of the police picnic Abby was going to baby-sit little Abby for her mother. But those arrangements were changed, perhaps because big Abby had been so sick. Little Abby went to her Aunt Lucy's instead. (according to 'Goodbye Lizzie Borden: Robert Sullivan. Page 34/35.

I think using the search button here for 'Sarah Whitehead' and 'Police picnic' should bring quite a bit up. What I can't understand is why Mrs Whitehead wasn't called as a witness at the inquest to tell about all the arrangements.

[MysteryReader]

i read ahead in my book and it came to light that perhaps Andrew intercepted the note before it got to the house (I'll look up the testimonies tomorrow). I'm on my iPad due to laptop issues so I apologize ahead for any spelling mistakes.

[Curryong]

Oh, interesting! Victoria Lincoln had quite a bit about the note in her book too, but her theory was a change of wills!

[MysteryReader]

Oh, interesting! Victoria Lincoln had quite a bit about the note in her book too, but her theory was a change of wills!

Right now, the book is a bit boring so I plan to skip ahead to the note section. Who is/was Victoria Lincoln

[Curryong]

Victoria Lincoln was an earlier writer on the case. She came from Fall River herself and as a child she could remember the older Lizzie, and listened to her parents talking about some of the older characters in the case, like Dr Bowen.

She was a professional author and wrote a book called 'A Private Disgrace' which I got on Kindle (didn't cost too much and I was interested to see what she said about Fall River.) Some longterm members on here joked about her because she used a lot of imagination.

Her particular theory involved Andrew, assisted by Abby and John Morse, intending to change his will, hence the note to Abby, ie 'Come down town for our appointment'. However, he was prevented from doing that (changing his will, putting John in charge of the Swansea farms) because Lizzie, suffering from an undiagnosed neurological condition which usually appeared just before her period, bumped Abby off.

[MysteryReader]

Very interesting, indeed! Was she a neighbor later of Lizzie and Emma's? Seems I remember a neighbor with that name. That is an interesting theory...

[Curryong]

Her parents lived a little way away from Lizzie and Emma, not near enough to be neighbours. Victoria could remember seeing the elderly Lizzie feeding squirrels etc but I don't think she ever spoke to her.
I should have put a comma after Lizzie in my earlier above post. Victoria's parents had known Lizzie by sight but they were never friends. I think, like the majority of the rest of the townspeople they kept well away.

Edited the above post to make it a bit clearer!