Life after Murder...

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:50 am

ugh, i would hate to have to clean that house. it's beautiful, but too big.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:19 am

I wonder how quickly the 92 2nd street house was occupied--- and if anyone from those bygone days noticed any 'hauntings'?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:32 am

Do you think, Aa, that they began in modern times, after the house changed to being a commercial concern. Heaven forbid!

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:52 am

oh, i read about that not long ago. i believe lizzie and emma rented the property out fairly quickly after they moved to maplecroft. now can't recall to whom they rented it. i did wonder, though, how the tenants felt living in that house. did they get low rent as a result of the history? did the sisters have trouble renting it? i'd think so.

never have heard about any haunting or strange experiences in the house from back then. but they may not have wanted to talk about it, even if such things did happen.

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:59 pm

I was about to say that hauntings and so on were considered a superstitious subject, the stuff of immigrant beliefs. But then, I remembered the popularity of the whole spiritualist movement at the end of the 19th century: séances and so on. Ironically, that became an amusement more of the leisured classes, though. Oh, America, how funny you are! :)

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:19 pm

The Spiritualist movement started in the U.S., didn't it, with the Fox sisters and their 'rappings' in the 1840's. Apparently they just wanted to frighten their mother in the beginning, but then others became involved and it spread. The sisters led sad lives really, alcoholism and so forth.
I think if there had been any 'disturbances' in the old Borden property the new tenants would have talked to others about it. It got converted back into a two family dwelling according to the above article. Let's hope the sanitary facilities were improved.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:09 pm

yes, the spiritualist movement started in the u.s. with the fox sisters. it's hard to tell what really happened there. much like with lizzie! one of the sisters publicly stated it was all a fraud and supposedly demonstrated how they did it. then retracted. others who'd closely investigated them for fraud and were debunkers swore it simply wasn't possible for them (or her - one sister) to explain everything away the way they (she) claimed.

its another interesting topic, but who knows what the truth was.

i just came across something regarding the rift between emma and lizzie, and i may be changing my position on the possibility of it being as a result of a romance between lizzie and nance because of this:

Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by William on Feb-11th-04 at 12:17 PM
In response to Message #14.
Jimmy: Hope this helps.

March 9, 1903: Rev Edwin Augustus Buck dies in England.

February 23, 1904: Lizzie sees Nance O'Neil in a performance of Macbeth.

1904: During the summer of this year, Lizzie meets Nance O'Neil at a resort near Boston. Nance also appeared at the Academy of Music in Fall River the same year.

1905: The newspapers report that Lizzie entertained Nance at Maplecroft, a report that Nance denies later in life, saying she never visited Maplecroft.

June 3, 1905: Emma leaves Maplecroft.

April 13, 1913: Emma gives an interview to a reporter of the Boston Sunday Post in the home of the late Rev. Buck.During this interview
she said, "The happenings at French Street that caused me to leave I refuse to talk about. I did not go until the conditions became absolutely unbearable. Then, before taking action I consulted the Rev. A.E. Buck, who for years had been the family spiritual advisor. After carefully listening to my story, he said it was imperative that I should make my home else where."

NOTE: Emma had this conversation with the Rev. Buck, prior to his death on March 9, 1903, the year BEFORE Lizzie met Nance. How could Nance have been the cause of the dispute that caused Emma to leave Maplecrot? A more likely possibility for Emma's leaving could be Lizzies possible dalliance with their coachman, Tetrault, a handsome devil known to be very popular with the ladies. He had been fired but Lizzie rehired him after Emma left. He stayed at Maplecroft until 1908.

so emma discussed whatever the reason for her making the break with lizzie was with rev. buck, sometime before he died in march 9, 1903, and before he traveled to england. before lizzie and nance had even met.

the sticky part of this story, though, is if rev. buck told emma it was 'imperative' she should make home elsewhere, why did it take her 2+ years to do it? imperative sounds urgent, important.

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:23 pm

I've always thought this two-year gap between advice given and advice taken was strange. There is really no reason in this case that could explain it away as a slip of Emma''s memory, or a reporter's mistake, because we have two solid facts: the Reverend Buck's date of death and the date on which Emma left Maplecroft for good.

I didn't know Nance O'Neil denied ever having visited Maplecroft. I thought it was given that she did, and more than once. Hmm.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:47 pm

Catbooks, this is very interesting indeed. Many theories about Emma's departure are now blown out of the water.
Perhaps the sisters had been increasingly getting on each other's nerves as they aged. They were, after all, very different people.
Then one day a huge row erupted, perhaps about the chauffeur, perhaps about something relatively minor. Maybe Emma saw something in Lizzie's eyes when she was in a rage that really perturbed her. She went to see Rev Buck and poured all her worries and resentments about Lizzie's overbearing nature out to him. He advised her for her own peace of mind to depart, but the sisters made up and things were better for a while.
Emma probably felt a huge sense of obligation towards Lizzie, because of the promise made to her dead mother, but I don't think Lizzie was the easiest person in the world to live with, and in the end it all just got too much.

Bronte · Post by **Bronte** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:11 pm

Hi everyone I have been reading this forum for a few months and just recently was able to get my membership..I have always been interested in The Borden Case and about a month ago I was talking to a friend who grew up in Fall River and she told me that she has a poem hanging in the Borden House that she wrote as a child..She also sent me some pictures of Lizzie when she lived at Maplecroft.My favorite was one of an elderly Lizzie sitting near her fireplace next to a huge Christmas tree.I love all of the info and knowledge that everyone brings to this group.I am just a novice but I find everything about Lizzie and her life just fascinating and also sad.I was reading about Lizzie and Nance and I have always thought that they might have had a brief affair and that was the reason for Emma leaving and for the silence that lasted between the two sisters until Lizzie death..I also find it very strange that they died nine days a part..I hope to keep learning from the pro's on here so please keep up the good work.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:21 pm

Hello, Bronte, and welcome! I am also a newbie and have learned so much already. In fact there is so much information sometimes it makes your head spin! Now you're with us, keep on posting. We need a variety of opinions. Keeps everyone interested!

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:36 pm

Welcome, Bronte. There are many of us actively posting away here who are relatively new, too. We're all in various phases of discovery ad having a great time sharing. Please don't hesitate to participate!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:17 pm

Hi Bronte, welcome to the forum. You will find this forum is packed full of information from members who have studied the Borden Case for many years. Enjoy.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:20 pm

Hi Bronte. I'm new, too, and the people and information here are great. Welcome!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:29 pm

Catbooks wrote:yes, the spiritualist movement started in the u.s. with the fox sisters. it's hard to tell what really happened there. much like with lizzie! one of the sisters publicly stated it was all a fraud and supposedly demonstrated how they did it. then retracted. others who'd closely investigated them for fraud and were debunkers swore it simply wasn't possible for them (or her - one sister) to explain everything away the way they (she) claimed.

its another interesting topic, but who knows what the truth was.

i just came across something regarding the rift between emma and lizzie, and i may be changing my position on the possibility of it being as a result of a romance between lizzie and nance because of this:

Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by William on Feb-11th-04 at 12:17 PM
In response to Message #14.
Jimmy: Hope this helps.

March 9, 1903: Rev Edwin Augustus Buck dies in England.

February 23, 1904: Lizzie sees Nance O'Neil in a performance of Macbeth.

1904: During the summer of this year, Lizzie meets Nance O'Neil at a resort near Boston. Nance also appeared at the Academy of Music in Fall River the same year.

1905: The newspapers report that Lizzie entertained Nance at Maplecroft, a report that Nance denies later in life, saying she never visited Maplecroft.

June 3, 1905: Emma leaves Maplecroft.

April 13, 1913: Emma gives an interview to a reporter of the Boston Sunday Post in the home of the late Rev. Buck.During this interview
she said, "The happenings at French Street that caused me to leave I refuse to talk about. I did not go until the conditions became absolutely unbearable. Then, before taking action I consulted the Rev. A.E. Buck, who for years had been the family spiritual advisor. After carefully listening to my story, he said it was imperative that I should make my home else where."

NOTE: Emma had this conversation with the Rev. Buck, prior to his death on March 9, 1903, the year BEFORE Lizzie met Nance. How could Nance have been the cause of the dispute that caused Emma to leave Maplecrot? A more likely possibility for Emma's leaving could be Lizzies possible dalliance with their coachman, Tetrault, a handsome devil known to be very popular with the ladies. He had been fired but Lizzie rehired him after Emma left. He stayed at Maplecroft until 1908.
so emma discussed whatever the reason for her making the break with lizzie was with rev. buck, sometime before he died in march 9, 1903, and before he traveled to england. before lizzie and nance had even met.

the sticky part of this story, though, is if rev. buck told emma it was 'imperative' she should make home elsewhere, why did it take her 2+ years to do it? imperative sounds urgent, important.

Gosh, I wish there was some way of just grabbing part quotes instead of the whole post.
The thing is however, I've been re-reading Catbook's interesting post carefully, and the only information we have about Emma rushing off to the Rev Buck in 1903 and him advising her to leave forthwith, because 'conditions had become unbearable' is from the interview Emma supposedly gave to the Boston newspaper in 1913. This is an interview that, in my opinion, she never gave. If she did not give it then we are back with something ticking Emma off badly enough in 1905 that she left Maplecroft (with the Rev obviously out of it.)

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:47 pm

I'm the mother of only daughters, and I can't imagine them living under the same roof for all of their lives. Eventually there's be a hatchet involved....:-)

Emma and Lizzie could've disagreed on money, men, women, travel, housekeeping, personal habits, living space. The list is unending. If the "unbearable" interview is fiction, maybe Emma finally saw Lizzie as not needing her anymore and wanted to pursue her own interests.

Except for the fact (or factoid) that they never spoke again.

If this is true, then something huge came between them. Something so heinous that not only did Emma move out but she cut off contact. Or else Lizzie kicked her out and cut off contact. We have to view the heinousness of whatever happened through the filter of probable patricide. Meaning it must've been pretty damn bad.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:14 am

Curryong wrote:… Gosh, I wish there was some way of just grabbing part quotes instead of the whole post. …

There is an easy way of posting partial quotes, just as I have done here with your quote.

1. Click on the quote icon of the member’s quote you want to make a comment on. (FYI: I cut and then paste this quote into a blank page in my main e-mail program. It is much easier to rearrange the quote as I want it to appear by using my e-mail program than to try and do this within the Reply section of the forum).

2. Place your cursor at the end of the members name in quote, and then insert three … followed by one space. (The three … indicate to the reader that there was information prior to the line(s) you are quoting).

3. Hit your enter key, which will move everything within the quote down a line. Now you can delete out the part(s) of the quote you don’t want in your partial quote.

4. At the end of the partial quote, insert three more … and one space. (This indicates to the reader that there was more information after the sentence you are quoting).

5. You can then make your comments, below the partial quote.

6. When finished, copy and then paste your reply in the forum’s reply section. Do a preview to make sure it is how you want it to appear. If it does not appear as you want it to, then go back to your e-mail page and revise it, then copy and paste it into the forum’s reply section. Do a preview to make sure it is how you want it to appear.

7. If your reply appears as you want, then submit.

I hope these steps help. I know the written instructions appear to be too complicated, but it is a lot simpler to do than you think.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:47 pm

hi bronte, and welcome!

Curryong wrote: Gosh, I wish there was some way of just grabbing part quotes instead of the whole post.
The thing is however, I've been re-reading Catbook's interesting post carefully, and the only information we have about Emma rushing off to the Rev Buck in 1903 and him advising her to leave forthwith, because 'conditions had become unbearable' is from the interview Emma supposedly gave to the Boston newspaper in 1913. This is an interview that, in my opinion, she never gave. If she did not give it then we are back with something ticking Emma off badly enough in 1905 that she left Maplecroft (with the Rev obviously out of it.)

my personal opinion jury is still out on whether or not emma gave that interview. sometimes i think no, other times yes. we do know that rev. buck was the family (or her) spiritual advisor, but that doesn't help as far as proving the interview was real or not.

if she did say it, then that 2+ year wait to take action is strange, because it reads like it's in chronological order: 1) things started getting bad, 2) they got worse, 3) emma talks to buck, who advises her to leave, 4) and thenshe leaves. not then she leaves, two years later.

if she didn't say it, then yep, we're back at square one, with all the usual possible reasons.

i was surprised to read that nance denied staying with lizzie too. i don't know what the source was for that, or how reliable. seemed to me it was pretty widely known she'd stayed with lizzie at maplecroft.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:50 pm

Thank you so very much, twinsrwe, for your instructions about quotes. I am so silly about that sort of thing it's not funny but I've written it down and now I won't forget it!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:15 pm

I think everyone posting is surprised about Nancy O'Neill's statement. If it's true then she may never have gone to Maplecroft because of Emma being there. I can't remember the dates of Lizzie meeting Nancy and then shrugging her off but I recollect that the relationship only lasted about two years.

Lizzie offered financial and moral support at a time when Nance was going through several law suits. However, she didn't come lumbering to the rescue just over two years later when Nance's house went into foreclosure. Lizzie was going to write or back a play for her (according to the newspapers) but that never came to anything, if true.

As for the newspaper interview, I've always had doubts about it because of Emma's stoical and very private Yankee background. I've always been inclined to the 'two sisters just getting irritated with each other' view, but as debbie reminds us, the two sisters never spoke again (as far as we know) after 1905, and while Emma left Lizzie $1,000 in her Will, Lizzie just put in a short contemptuous remark in her's, about Emma having been left sufficient, and doesn't even mention her by name. So I'm back to thinking that maybe there was an horrendous blow-up between the sisters, in which many harsh words were spoken, perhaps even about the murder, leaving Lizzie resentful and bitter.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:27 pm

Curryong wrote:Thank you so very much, twinsrwe, for your instructions about quotes. I am so silly about that sort of thing it's not funny but I've written it down and now I won't forget it!

You are very welcome. No, you are not ‘silly’ at all; it is a wise person who seeks help when needed.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:56 pm

according to part of the quote above by william, here's the sequence of events related to nance.

February 23, 1904: Lizzie sees Nance O'Neil in a performance of Macbeth.

1904: During the summer of this year, Lizzie meets Nance O'Neil at a resort near Boston. Nance also appeared at the Academy of Music in Fall River the same year.

1905: The newspapers report that Lizzie entertained Nance at Maplecroft, a report that Nance denies later in life, saying she never visited Maplecroft.

yes, two years. in 1906 they parted ways. i don't believe nance that she was never at maplecroft. there was too much about that. why she'd lie, i don't know, and i don't have the original source saying she denied it so that might not even be true.

i do think whatever it was that caused the final rift between them had to have been big. something they considered big, in any event.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:13 pm

I don't know when she gave the interview in which Nance denied it, (was it the one she gave after Lizzie's death?) but I wonder whether she wanted to downplay the friendship because her husband and the theatre-going public would object to hearing about her visiting a notorious woman.
There was a house party given by Lizzie for the theatricals elsewhere, at around the time Emma left, so if Nance never darkened the portals of Maplecroft, I do think it was because of Emma's objections (not about lesbianism, but 'theatricals' and parties where alcohol would be served.)

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:17 pm

We know for sure that Emma was conciliatory in her will, leaving a token inheritance to her sister Lizzie, and naming her by name.
We also know for sure that Lizbeth was caustic in her will, saying Emma had enough money and didn't need any more, and didn't name her by name, just sister.
This doesn't seem coincidental, It seems that Emma was not holding a grudge, but Lizbeth still had ill feelings. There is no proof that they ever spoke again, nor is there proof that they didn't speak again, but they sure were NOT as close as they had been. They were used to each others idiosyncrasies and bad habits after years of living together in the smaller house, YET they chose to live together in Maplecroft, so that probably wasn't the problem. It was something said or done while at Maplecroft. What could be so bad as to come between sisters? Usually it is a man. (or perhaps a woman).

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:42 pm

Or an old family murder, Possum. In my earlier posts speculating that perhaps the interview Emma gave wasn't kosher I said that if it wasn't we were back speculating about the old reasons, ie Emma objecting to Nance's closeness (hints of lesbianism etc.)
I don't happen to believe there was a lesbian affair, but I do think that Emma being a complete wet-blanket over Lizzir's new friends may have resulted in a tremendous row in which things were said that perhaps shouldn't have been. After that Lizzie might have gone into one of her famous long sulks and suggested a parting of the ways. All speculation, of course

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:53 pm

i don't know, curryong. i don't know if she ever did give such an interview and mentioned lizzie. i can't find anything authoritative on it. it would be silly if she did. they were friends, lizzie visited her house, nance performed in fall river and boston. it would be odd if she hadn't visited maplecroft. not to mention the article about the party lizzie threw for her and her company.

if lizzie threw parties for other theatricals, but didn't include her theatrical friend nance, wouldn't that seem very strange?

they were used to living with one another, yes. but as i mentioned, the them against the elder bordens was a strong bond. once they were dead, that bond wasn't there anymore. leaving the gulf of differences in their personalities, including what they did and didn't want, at the forefront. that would have been a big change.

i don't know if that alone is what did it, but i am sure it figured largely in whatever it was.

curryong, perhaps, but the row had to have been about something, something important. bigger than lizzie's chosen lifestyle. although if part of her lifestyle was having a lesbian relationship, that might have done it for straight-laced emma. she probably would have thought it was unnatural, ungodly, etc all the usuals.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:12 pm

PossumPie wrote:We know for sure that Emma was conciliatory in her will, leaving a token inheritance to her sister Lizzie, and naming her by name.
We also know for sure that Lizbeth was caustic in her will, saying Emma had enough money and didn't need any more, and didn't name her by name, just sister. …

Actually, Lizzie did name her sister by name. See number 28 in the following link:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... t-will.pdf

The thing I found interesting is where Lizzie stated (the underlining is mine):
… she had her share of her father’s estate ...

I've always wondered why Lizzie referred to Andrew as 'her' father instead of 'our' father.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:20 pm

Yes, who knows what the parting of the ways was about, really. It could have have followed a huge row about the murder, their social isolation, lesbianism, the chauffeur, Emma always being a wet blanket, anything or everything, and during the course of the argument things were said perhaps, which shouldn't have been. I don't think it was a civilised and cordial parting of the ways, even if Emma's later interview was made up.

The only hint we have of a complete break and lingering bitterness (on Lizzie's part,) is, as Possum and I both pointed out Emma was reasonably conciliatory in her last Will and testament (unless the $1,000 was some hidden insult) and Lizzie was contemptuous in her's.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:24 pm

twinsrwe, thanks for picking that oddity out. What a strange thing to say, 'her father'. It was almost as if she was separating herself, not only from Emma but from Andrew. Like a 'he was no father to me' sort of statement.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:34 pm

but if you read #1, it says 'to be used for the perpetual care of my father's lot in oak grove cemetery […],' so the separation, if there is one, would only be about emma, not her father.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:54 pm

Got it! I'm getting very careless. Concentrate, woman!

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:37 pm

twinsrwe wrote:
PossumPie wrote:We know for sure that Emma was conciliatory in her will, leaving a token inheritance to her sister Lizzie, and naming her by name.
We also know for sure that Lizbeth was caustic in her will, saying Emma had enough money and didn't need any more, and didn't name her by name, just sister. …
Actually, Lizzie did name her sister by name. See number 28 in the following link:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... t-will.pdf

The thing I found interesting is where Lizzie stated (the underlining is mine):
… she had her share of her father’s estate ...

I've always wondered why Lizzie refered to Andrew as 'her' father instead of 'our' father.

You're right. She does name Emma. and yea, she says 'her father' that is so detached from 'our father'

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:40 pm

Curryong wrote:twinsrwe, thanks for picking that oddity out. What a strange thing to say, 'her father'. It was almost as if she was separating herself, not only from Emma but from Andrew. Like a 'he was no father to me' sort of statement.

You're welcome, Curryong! It is a strange thing for Lizzie to say, but then we know Lizzie did and said a lot of strange things. However, it does show Lizzie’s distain for Emma; the woman who was her mentor through childhood and well into her adult years.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:12 pm

i'd say both of them carried the grudge into their graves, it's only that emma did less so than lizzie.

neither of them had children or a spouse. it would only be natural to leave the majority of their estates to one another, their only remaining close relatives. yet neither did. the $1000 emma left lizzie was a token gesture. it is notable that she did keep up her end of their agreement about her half of maplecroft, while lizzie didn't.

maybe it all came down to neither of them wanting to say the words 'let's bury the hatchet'!

*groan*

something i've always wondered about is that emma gave a fair amount to animal rescue. not as much as lizzie, but still a decent chunk of change. yet as far as we know, emma wasn't a great animal lover, never had any animal companions/family of her own. we know lizzie was a great lover of animals, so it makes sense she'd do that, but emma?

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:41 pm

I've skimmed through the thread and two things that I didn't see answered. Lizzie never spoke of the murders. I don't even think she even had that conversation with Emma. Also she did go to the cemetery, and more so toward the end of her life. There was a Mr. Lomax at the cemetery who would help her especially if there was snow on the ground. That information I read in Parallel Lives.

Also Maplecroft is again for sale. I wish I had the resources to purchase and restore it. I have been inside and it does need work. However between the woodwork and the stained glass windows, it would be worth every penney.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:03 pm

Maplecroft sounds as if it has been neglected for some years. It really deserves an owner with plenty of cash who will restore it to its former glory and more importantly keep it pristine.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:52 pm

PossumPie wrote:We know for sure that Emma was conciliatory in her will, leaving a token inheritance to her sister Lizzie, and naming her by name.
We also know for sure that Lizbeth was caustic in her will, saying Emma had enough money and didn't need any more, and didn't name her by name, just sister.
This doesn't seem coincidental, It seems that Emma was not holding a grudge, but Lizbeth still had ill feelings. There is no proof that they ever spoke again, nor is there proof that they didn't speak again, but they sure were NOT as close as they had been. They were used to each others idiosyncrasies and bad habits after years of living together in the smaller house, YET they chose to live together in Maplecroft, so that probably wasn't the problem. It was something said or done while at Maplecroft. What could be so bad as to come between sisters? Usually it is a man. (or perhaps a woman).

Money, sex or children. And children gets crossed out.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:50 pm

Curryong wrote:Maplecroft sounds as if it has been neglected for some years. It really deserves an owner with plenty of cash who will restore it to its former glory and more importantly keep it pristine.

It is a beautiful home that can be restored. Like I said the woodwork is outstanding. The hardwood floors downstairs have inlaid wood of a different color as a border. There was even a small coal stove in part of the entryway and when I saw it the cover was closed. The artwork on the cover was something I had never seen. Unfortunately it was requested we didn't take photos in the house. The kitchen had a tin ceiling and I know of a company that could probably replicate the sections or come very close to what was there. If I had it I would restore it to as close to original as possible. Even the outside I would have the railings and the back porch back to the way it was built. Truthfully I've only seen black & white pictures from a long time ago, I don't know what color the house was in the beginning. We didn't go down in the basement so I don't know what kind of heating system it has now, I know Lizbeth would get coal deliveries back in the day.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:37 pm

I understand Maplecroft was used as a B. And B. at one time and wasn't in the best condition then, and certainly not afterwards. Lovely that you were given a little tour round some of the rooms, Nadzieja. Why did the kitchen have a tin ceiling? That's a bit unusual isn't it?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:53 am

Nadzieja wrote:
Curryong wrote:Maplecroft sounds as if it has been neglected for some years. It really deserves an owner with plenty of cash who will restore it to its former glory and more importantly keep it pristine.
It is a beautiful home that can be restored. Like I said the woodwork is outstanding. The hardwood floors downstairs have inlaid wood of a different color as a border. There was even a small coal stove in part of the entryway and when I saw it the cover was closed. The artwork on the cover was something I had never seen. Unfortunately it was requested we didn't take photos in the house. The kitchen had a tin ceiling and I know of a company that could probably replicate the sections or come very close to what was there. If I had it I would restore it to as close to original as possible. Even the outside I would have the railings and the back porch back to the way it was built. Truthfully I've only seen black & white pictures from a long time ago, I don't know what color the house was in the beginning. We didn't go down in the basement so I don't know what kind of heating system it has now, I know Lizbeth would get coal deliveries back in the day.

It would be nice if someone restored it. Unfortunately I moved away from Maryland b/c both Maryland and Massachusetts residents pay over 10% of their income in State/local taxes after all is said and done. I swore NEVER to live in "Taxachussets" so I'm out...

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:58 am

Are State taxes in Massechusetts higher than elsewhere, Possum, and is Fall River a thriving place?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:10 am

Curryong wrote:Are State taxes in Massechusetts higher than elsewhere, Possum, and is Fall River a thriving place?

States like Maryland, New York, Massachusetts are very "Democratic" states. They vote for many social programs that must be paid for by extra tax dollars. Massachusetts pays among the highest local/state tax percent per person of anywhere in the USA except Hawaii, California, and perhaps New Jersey. It becomes burdensome when hard working people work overtime just to get by financially, then drive past people sitting on their front steps hanging out with their neighbors, all without jobs and getting everything free from the government. I worked psyc. for over 20 years, and there ARE many deserving people on these programs, but there are A LOT of people who know how to work it. My clients talked about how they took their food stamps, sold them at half face value, took the money and bought alcohol and cigarettes, and then ate at the local churches and soup kitchens for meals. A single mom with 4 kids can get "disability" for each of them b/c she had them diagnosed with Attention Deficit disorder. That gives her an extra $500 each per month income. Added to her welfare check, most of these women admitted to bringing home more money than I did each month as their therapist...some called me a "sucker" for working instead of "working the system" It was demoralizing, let me tell you...

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:13 am

Sorry for the rant, and to answer your question, You will pay more in food, rent, etc. in Massachusetts, but the average income is higher so it kind of evens out. It's just they take more taxes out of your paycheck before you get it. Fall River is somewhat economically depressed, and the crime rate is a bit higher then elsewhere in Mass. It depends what part of Fall River you are in, of course.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:57 am

I volunteer at an advice bureau for 'battlers' and, yes, some do try to rort the system. Most are just trying to get by, though. We at the bureau do hand over some supermarket vouchers to help, when people are out of luck. The Federal Govt pays pensions and benefits. There are no food stamps but single parents who are unemployed for instance, get paid $700 per fortnight, supplemented by things like Rental Assistance, Pharmaceutical Allowance (most medicines are $6.00 each) and various other child care benefits.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:26 am

i read that tin ceilings were used in kitchens to help assure against fire. the rest of houses as well, but there was more danger of fire in the kitchen than other rooms.

curryong, what are 'battlers,' and is rort an aussie word i'm unfamiliar with or a typo? i'm hoping it's an aussie word i've never heard before :)

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:47 pm

Sorry, Australianisms coming out! I forget sometimes! Battlers are people who battle all their lives against circumstances and never get out of the pattern of poverty, whether through little schooling, bad parenting, violence in the home, etc. The main characteristic is that they were born into homes where there were never two cents to rub together, and they've never been able to break the cycle, sometimes through their own life choices, sometimes not.

'Rorts' is an Australian word for playing the system in a shady, not entirely honest way, 'rorting the system' means trying to get away with as much as you can without being caught out. It's not just the poor, sometimes Members of Parliament, and other public figures, are accused of 'rorts' in juggling their expense accounts in an imaginative way, etc!

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:59 pm

Yes, this state is outrageous, we seem to have to pay for everything all the time (plus tax). I visited family in TX and couldn't believe even the difference in food prices. I've lived here all my life and at my age don't think I could get uprooted very easily.

As for the tin ceiling, you're absolutely right it was thought of as a way of slowing down a fire, also as a protection to the floor above it. Actually the town I was born in had many many old buildings, most built in the late 1890's. Lately a lot of new construction is going on like the new police station being built. You can still go into the old buildings and see the tin ceilings. All the ones I have ever seen have been painted over, I would love to have seen what they looked like when they were first installed. I have a habit of looking at these old places and I see them as what they could be, not what they look like now. Even some of the old mills up here have been converted into housing. I've only seen pictures, but some of the apartments looks really cozy.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:42 pm

ooo, yay, two new words to add to my vocabulary! both are useful words. so rorting the system means the same as working the system, just the aussie word for it. (btw, off topic, are you an american who moved to australia? it sounded like it in one of your posts, but i wasn't entirely clear. and if so, bravo to you going there by yourself!)

i think, as possum said, it's worse here in california. although, if you truly need assistance at some point, it is one heck of a blessing. as i understand it, for food stamps here, the absolute most you can get is $125 a month. that's even if you have 5 children to feed. not going to go very far, although better than nothing.

all of the tin roofs i've seen have been painted over as well. did they not usually paint over, even at the time? i thought the idea was to emulate elaborate plaster ceilings, but without the cost involved.

i too love looking at old buildings and thinking about what they were like when they were new.

side note: i don't like it when i see a period movie with books, and they obviously used old books, which look nothing like they'd have looked when they were newly bound. i don't think i've ever seen a movie where that wasn't the case.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:12 pm

I'm English-born, from Norfolk. I'm what Australians describe as 'a £10 Pom' ('Pom' or 'pommy' is Australian for English people. £10 is all it took to get here, the Australian government needed immigrants and subsidised British migrants' costs.) Getting really off-topic here! Sorry, everyone!

Interesting about tin ceilings. In very old Australian homesteads the kitchen was often built separately to the living/sleeping quarters because of the ever-present risk of fire.

Catbooks · Post by **Catbooks** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:32 pm

i don't know why i thought you were american. maybe because the majority of the posters here are and some slight surprise that people in other countries would find the borden case so compelling? that's my best guess.

regardless, i very much admire your traveling to australia by yourself :)

(and again think of how funny, although i didn't type it at the time, the whole pants - beach or otherwise - conversation must have sounded to you, knowing that pants in great britain, and i assume australia, means underpants.)