Whoa, Sanity Survey of the Bordens & Morses

[Catbooks]

maybe most if not all of you already know about this, but it's my first time reading this report. (thank you, kat, for posting it!)

by Kat » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:55 pm

Here is the "Sanity Survey" that describes others views of the Morse family, from a previous post of mine:

Commonwealth of Massachusetts VS. Lizzie A. Borden; The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893. Eds. Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society, 1994.

Pages 102-6

#HK102
Report, handwritten in ink.

November 24, 1892

H. A. Knowlton
District Atty.
New Bedford, Mass.

Sir,
I have interviewed the following named persons in reference to the rel-
atives of Lizzie Borden who said as follows:

Capt. James C. Stafford North St. New Bedford.
I use to know quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, her name was
Sarah Morse. She had a sister and brothers. john now in Fall River,
another brother who is a Blacksmith and is now out West. Mrs. Morse the
mother of Lizzie Bordon was a very peculiar woman. She had a Very bad
temper. She was very strong in her likes and dislikes. I never knew or
heard of any of the Morses or Bordons was ever Insane or anything like it.
I use to live in Fall River and always knew the Bordens and the Morses.
Mrs Gray who lives on this St. may tell you something aboute them, also a
Mrs Almy who lives on Franklin St, Fall River.

Mrs. - Holland Daughter of Mrs. Gray Resides on North St. New Bedford.
Same house with Mrs. Gray. I never heard my mother say that Lizzie
Bordon her mother or any of the Morses is or ever was Insane or anything
like it. I always have heard that they were somewhat peculiar and odd. I
have heard my mother talk considerable about Bordens and the Morses
but never heard her say that any of them were Insane.

Abraham G. Hart Cashier Savings bank Fall River. I have live here most
all my life. I never knew much aboute Lizzie Borden or her mother. I
never knew much about the brothers of Lizzie Bordens mother. Always
known of them. I never heard that any of the Morses or Bordens was ever
Insane.

S. H. Miller 93 Second St. Fall River opp. the Bordon House. I have lived
in Fall River 64 years. Bordon use to work for me. I know the Bordons
and all of the Morses. the father of Lizzies mother was Anthony Morse. I
use to know his two brothers. Know the brothers of Mrs. Morse, Lizzies
mother. One is now supposed to be out West. I never knew or never
heard that any of the Morses is or was Insane. Know they were somewhat
peculiar. Anthony Morse had two brothers George and Gardiner Morse.
I was not a witness at the trial. I did not intend to be. I saw Mr. Borden a
little while before the murder. Bridget, the Servant girl came running
into my house and said both was dead just then a man was passing I
called him and told Bridget to tell him what she told me. She did and
that man was a witness. I did not want anything to do with it and I did not
go near the house.

Rescom Case 199 Second St. Fall River. I have lived in Fall River 57 years
and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse
(Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live
here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He
has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered
use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty
well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they
will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute
the Bordons or Morses. We never heard that anyone of them is or ever
was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane.

Nov. 26.
John S. Brayton Fall River. I have lived here great meny years. I know the
Morses Mother of Lizzie Borden was Sarah, her father was Anthony
Morse. I think her sister is dead. Anthony Morse was a farmer, after he
owned a milk route. I never heard of anyone of them as being Insane or
having any streak of Insanity.

D. S. Brigam Ex. City Marshal of Fall River I use to know the Morses
never heard of any of them as being Insane, but this girl Lizzie Borden is
known by a number of people here to be a woman of a bad disposition if
they tell what they know.

Geo. A. Patty, Fall River I did not know much aboute the history of the
Morses but never heard that any of them is or was ever Insane but Lizzie is
known to be ugly.

Mrs. Geo. W. Whitehead 45 4th St. Fall River Sister of Mrs. Borden who
was murdered never heard that any of the Morses was Insane but ugly.
Since the murder people have said if she is guilty she must be Insane.

Mrs. William Almy Franklin St. Fall River Always known the Bordens
and the Morses, but for several years I have not known much aboute any
of them. Some 30 years ago my husband who is now dead was in compa-
ny with Mr Bordon. I use to know the brother of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies
Mother) also her sister. I think their was 4 brothers. I have never heard
that their was ever any Insanity or anything like it among any of the
Morses.

Chester W. Green 80 years old lives in Fall River and have for 40 years. I
know the Bordens and the Morses but I dont know much aboute. Never
heard as any of them was ever Insane or anything like it.

William Carr lived in Fall River for 40 years I know the Bordons better
then I know the Morses. The Bordons are peculiar people but I never
heard that any of the Bordons or the Morses is or was ever Insane.
Respectfully,

Moulton Batchelder .
Dist. Police

(the underscores are mine.)

i'd always had the impression that the bordens were odd, but lately had begun to wonder if that was all or mostly part of the lizzie legend, as many things are. but obviously lots of people who knew them thought they were strange people.

[Catbooks]

more about lizzie's oddness, and again thanks, kat. also again, the underlines are mine, but the whole quote is an interesting read, even if not all about lizzie's peculiarities.

Postby Kat » Tue May 19, 2009 10:08 pm

This is Mrs. Cluny, a family relation, talking about how Lizzie might act around company. It speaks to the question of the elder Bordens having folks over. (Rebello, Lizzie Borden Past & Present pages 176-7):


"Was Queer / Not Insane / A Second Cousin Described Some of Lizzie Borden's Oddities," Boston Herald, August 7, 1892: 2.

A Herald reporter interviewed Mr. William [B.] Wilcox and his sister, Mrs. [Ella F.] Cluny, distant relatives of the Andrew Borden, who lived in the Globe section of Fall River. Mrs. Cluny spent a week with the Bordens and did some housecleaning for them. She said she was always treated as a family member and never witnessed any ill feelings between Lizzie and Abby. "She never acted as though she disliked her stepmother, rather she seemed to show as much regard for her as I believed it possible for her to show anyone."

The reporter asked Mrs. Cluny if she had any reason to believe Lizzie to be insane.

Mrs. Cluny said, "No, I always thought she was pretty level headed. She was peculiar,though. She was odd, very odd. I have heard a number of persons speak of it." The reporter asked her to tell about Lizzie's oddities. Mrs. Cluny said, "There were times whereby Lizzie would not speak to members of the family who were visiting the Bordens. She would act as though she did not see them, and go right through rooms where they were without speaking a word to them." Then, again, she would be extremely pleasant and would act as though there was nothing too much for her to do for anyone ... A great many members of the family had the same experience."

As the interview continued, Mrs. Cluny stated Lizzie had a "great habit of staying in bed in the morning. I have seldom seen her at breakfast. She would almost invariably remain in bed until 10 o'clock or so."

Mrs. Cluny provided the reporter with a vivid and revealing account of Lizzie's personality. He asked if Lizzie was "irritable or would she fly into a passion." She said, "Lizzie never impressed her as being very passionate. She seemed cold blooded ... she seemed to mope and sulk. I never heard any words, and couldn't tell what the trouble was, but I knew it was generally considered as one of Lizzie's odd streaks."

The issue of insanity surfaced when the reporter asked, "Would you be surprised if it turned out now that she was insane?" Mrs. Cluny replied, "Well, yes, I should. Her odd streaks never lead me to think anything like that. She never acted in any way like an insane person - that is, like what I call a maniac. She didn't do things wrong, and wouldn't get excited and hysterical. She just seemed to have spells of moping and sulking, and I call it her condition. Then there never was any insanity in the family that I know of."

When queried about Andrew Borden and his "closeness in money matters," Mrs. Cluny said, "Oh, no, there was no reason for it. He wasn't close in family matters. He was a sharp businessman and looked after his property, as all the Bordens do, but he treated his children and his wife well. She [Abby] was a splendid woman. He gave the girls most of what they have, although their grandfather left them something."

this wouldn't explain all of it (certainly not murder, single or double!), but i've been wondering if lizzie was somewhere on the autism scale. just various things i've been reading that were said about her by people who knew her have me wondering about that.

i think mrs. cluny wasn't entirely accurate about andrew not being closed-fisted in family matters. we know that sometimes he wasn't, but it's clear in many things he was.

[debbiediablo]

Adam Lanza's crime was unique in the annals of autism. He had what is termed a 'perseveration' on guns and school killings and Dance Revolution. My youngest daughter has autism, and she perseverates on photography. She is also what is termed 'high functioning.' All persons with autism perseverate on something. As they mature, the object of perseveration will hopefully mature. Right now I consult on a 17 year old who perseverates on the cartoon character FiFi LeFume (a beautiful female skunk). He carries photos of her and kisses her, talks to her, loves her, sleeps with her.

I have worked most of my professional life with children on the autism spectrum, the mentally ill, personality disordered, emotionally disturbed and behavior disordered. People with autism do not sulk and mope. Instead they are either asocial or atypically social, meaning they do not have an On and Off switch with regard to relating to other people. They're always 'off.' Persons with autism are rarely violent unless non-verbal, and then their aggressiveness is a means of communication. Adam Lanza is an exception, and this is because his mother fed the gun perseveration. Which is difficult for me to understand, and my husband collects antique guns that are securely locked with the ammo locked separately. Allowing anyone with limited social maturity near weapons of mass destruction is both foolish and dangerous.

If Lizzie had been autistic her developmental stages would have been noticeably late. By this I mean speech and language, toilet training, self-feeding, self-care, ability to function alone in the community, and she would never have made it to 10th grade in a public school. She never would have been considered 'well read' because her ability to understand abstract concepts would have been close to zero. Everyone who met her would have noted that she was more than just odd. The probably is high that in the late 1800's she would have been institutionalized in early childhood.

Lizzie would never have been able to spend three months in Europe if she were autistic. The transition of going somewhere new would've been too much. So would the transition from her childhood home to Maplecroft. 'Sameness' is the byword for persons on the autism spectrum; even moving furniture can throw them off for months. Or having a restaurant change its menu items.

My guess, and this is an educated guess but still a guess, is that she was bipolar or she experienced some sort childhood trauma (anything from the death of her mother to sexual abuse) that resulted in borderline personality disorder and/or sociopathy or some combination thereof. That her mother had a violent temper would point at bipolar although BPD and sociopathy/psychopathy can also be familial due to environment and quite likely genetic predisposition. FBI profiler John Douglas wrote in his book The Cases that Haunt Us that his opinion is that she was a victim incest.

[Curryong]

This is so interesting! Thank you, Kat and Catbooks. I would really like to know what they mean by 'ugly' but I do think it probably means subject to temper tantrums. There seems to have been a certain eccentricity in the family as well. Andrew for instance, though his business acumen covered it! I suppose you couldn't call John Morse ordinary! He was generally liked, however.
With the reaction to Lizzie there is the natural "Well, if she did do it then she must be insane" a view which would be held today, I think. Perhaps her 'moping and sulking' came from her mother Sarah, as well as perhaps a bad temper that was hidden for most of the time. It's interesting that the term 'peculiar' was used to describe the family. It was as if something was 'off' about them and others sensed it but didn't quite know what to make of it.

[debbiediablo]

Lizzie is notable for her immaturity of thinking when she blames Miss Russell for allowing her to burn the dress and 'they' for sending her upstairs to change dresses. She also has a snippy mouth when being questioned by police, testifying under oath or in general conversation (i.e. "I call her Mrs. Borden"). Plus Lizzie's story changes over and over. Even giving her benefit of doubt for taking 8 mg of morphine until the arrest, it's been my experience that there's something more than a little wrong with people who lie in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and then take offense when confronted with the truth. Or repeatedly change their stories and expect no one to notice. Too much of this is pathological.

[Curryong]

Yes, there's a mixture of arrogance and immaturity that comes through, isn't there, even in some of the responses in Lizzie's inquest testimony. Too much mothering by Emma perhaps, plus the knowledge that, after all, she WAS a Borden.

Andrew tried to give her (and Emma) some financial responsibility when he gifted that property, but seemingly both daughters took a dislike to being landlords. I wonder how much either woman really had to do with their property portfolio later in life.

[Mara]

The description given by Mrs. Cluny exactly matches a woman who was once my friend, and a pretty close one, too. Long story short, it turned out that she was a cocaine addict. Many women were in Lizzie's day. The stuff was available in drug stores without a prescription, in the liquid form known as Laudanum, as I'm sure you all know. This could explain her habit of sleeping late into the morning, too. Thanks for posting all of those summaries, Catbooks. How fascinating!

And debbiediablo, what a wealth of info you've given us to think about. I've studied autism and Asbergers somewhat, not professionally, like you, but just to better understand some "aspies" I know. What you say is right on the money. That ain't Lizzie. Much of her behavior does seem pathological, but is that inherent, or it is caused by something? Inquiring minds,,,,

I want to read the Douglas book, because, much as many people here will adamantly dispute it, I think incest, or some other equally traumatic childhood experience for both Borden sisters is a possibility.

[debbiediablo]

The Douglas book Cases That Haunt Us contains a chapter on the Borden murders; also one on Jack the Ripper, the Lindbergh Kidnapping, the Zodiac Killer, and JonBenet Ramsey. I have the Kindle version. Give me until next weekend and I'll cut and paste all of the Lizzie chapter to a new thread for anyone who wants to read it. I'm sort of overwhelmed with work to do it right now. I'll also cut and paste the chapter on staged domestic homicide from the Crime Classification Manual: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crime-Third Edition which is the go-to for law enforcement officers.

[Mara]

DD, that's kind of you. The Look inside" pages on Amazon aren't especially revealing. My local library has it as an e-book, so i'll get mine that way, but it would be great to have that chapter handy here for all.

[debbiediablo]

Douglas makes some minor factual errors but I found his take on her psychological make-up to be very interesting.

[Catbooks]

it was aspergers i was thinking of, not autism in general. thanks, mara :)

mind, i don't know a great deal about it, certainly not a fraction of what debbie knows (and thank you for all of your insights), but here's why i was thinking it:

- difficulty making friends, from an early age, and later in life as well
- so many people thinking her 'odd' or 'peculiar,' yet stating definitively she wasn't insane or mentally ill
- frequently being described as cold or expressionless
- possibly that laugh on the stairway being an example of inappropriate laughter (while knowing abby was bloody and hacked in the next room!)
- her very strong reaction to people who she felt were deceptive to her (this would, i think be especially upsetting and confusing to someone who takes things very literally)
- she was a poor student
- possibly why their mother charged emma with taking care of lizzie, knowing something was 'off' about her, but not knowing what. likewise emma

i have the douglas book, which i bought just because of the chapter on lizzie. i liked the fact that he was a fbi profiler, so wanted to know what he made of her. but i read it a long time ago, so don't remember very well what he said. thanks for the reminder that he thought she was likely an incest victim. (which would mean emma was too.) it would be great if, when you get a chance, you could copy the chapter here for others to read.

speaking of factual errors on the case, last night i came across a youtube on ed mcbain's lizzie theory. holy cats, is he ever off-base! for your amusement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOOo7ru_Nzo

[Curryong]

Inappropriate laughter, indeed, Catbooks! Andrew had very few friends too, didn't he, apart from John Morse? Maybe Lizzie inherited some of her cold and unemotional nature from him?

A co-worker at the place where I volunteer has a mild case of Asberger's. She's quite open about it so we all know, but she is blank-faced much of the time and does have problems with other people's personal space.

[Mara]

Douglas makes some minor factual errors but I found his take on her psychological make-up to be very interesting.

Yes, I've already spotted some errors. They're not as egregious as some we've encountered, though!

[Mara]

speaking of factual errors on the case, last night i came across a youtube on ed mcbain's lizzie theory. holy cats, is he ever off-base! for your amusement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOOo7ru_Nzo

Holy cow! What a collection of whoppers! I wouldn't even know where to start! Thanks for the chuckles, Catbooks. :)

[debbiediablo]

it was aspergers i was thinking of, not autism in general. thanks, mara :)

mind, i don't know a great deal about it, certainly not a fraction of what debbie knows (and thank you for all of your insights), but here's why i was thinking it:

- difficulty making friends, from an early age, and later in life as well
- so many people thinking her 'odd' or 'peculiar,' yet stating definitively she wasn't insane or mentally ill
- frequently being described as cold or expressionless
- possibly that laugh on the stairway being an example of inappropriate laughter (while knowing abby was bloody and hacked in the next room!)
- her very strong reaction to people who she felt were deceptive to her (this would, i think be especially upsetting and confusing to someone who takes things very literally)
- she was a poor student
- possibly why their mother charged emma with taking care of lizzie, knowing something was 'off' about her, but not knowing what. likewise emma

Really the only difference between high-functioning autism (HFA) and Asperger Syndrome is that developmental delays in self-help and receptive-expressive language are not seen in Asperger's. By definition, Aspies have average or above average intelligence; whereas only 1/3 of persons with autism are not mentally retarded. This 1/3 are HFA. However, as persons with Asperger's and HFA mature their expressive and receptive language look similar; they lack ability to think in abstraction. Neither look markedly odd as infants and toddlers. Only after the social, self-help and speech-language milestones should occur (and they haven't) do they become noticeable. Meaning that Lizzie's mother would not have recognized her as being 'off' at the time she died. Lizzie would've been too young. The diagnostic markers wouldn't have been noticeable. (For instance, there's no way to know if a child's toilet training is delayed until after the age when it's waaaaaaay too late.) Asperger's and HFA fall under the umbrella of Autism Spectrum Disorders along with Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS), Rett Syndrome, and Childhood Disintegrative Disorder. There's no way Lizzie could fall anywhere on the ASD spectrum. Even her inquest testimony flies in the face of autistic response: she would have been forced into confession five minutes after the questioning started. Even persons with autism who are telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth can be destroyed on the witness stand.

[Catbooks]

speaking of factual errors on the case, last night i came across a youtube on ed mcbain's lizzie theory. holy cats, is he ever off-base! for your amusement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOOo7ru_Nzo

Holy cow! What a collection of whoppers! I wouldn't even know where to start! Thanks for the chuckles, Catbooks. :)

isn't it hilarious? it's like mcbain spent all of 20 minutes familiarizing himself with the case, and then let loose with this wild one

yesterday i tried finding my copy of the fbi profiler's book to reread the chapter on lizzie, and can't find it, grr. must have culled it from my collection, so i'll have to wait until debbie gets enough of a break to post it, too.

[Catbooks]

it was aspergers i was thinking of, not autism in general. thanks, mara :)

mind, i don't know a great deal about it, certainly not a fraction of what debbie knows (and thank you for all of your insights), but here's why i was thinking it:

- difficulty making friends, from an early age, and later in life as well
- so many people thinking her 'odd' or 'peculiar,' yet stating definitively she wasn't insane or mentally ill
- frequently being described as cold or expressionless
- possibly that laugh on the stairway being an example of inappropriate laughter (while knowing abby was bloody and hacked in the next room!)
- her very strong reaction to people who she felt were deceptive to her (this would, i think be especially upsetting and confusing to someone who takes things very literally)
- she was a poor student
- possibly why their mother charged emma with taking care of lizzie, knowing something was 'off' about her, but not knowing what. likewise emma

Really the only difference between high-functioning autism (HFA) and Asperger Syndrome is that developmental delays in self-help and receptive-expressive language are not seen in Asperger's. By definition, Aspies have average or above average intelligence; whereas only 1/3 of persons with autism are not mentally retarded. This 1/3 are HFA. However, as persons with Asperger's and HFA mature their expressive and receptive language look similar; they lack ability to think in abstraction. Neither look markedly odd as infants and toddlers. Only after the social, self-help and speech-language milestones should occur (and they haven't) do they become noticeable. Meaning that Lizzie's mother would not have recognized her as being 'off' at the time she died. Lizzie would've been too young. The diagnostic markers wouldn't have been noticeable. (For instance, there's no way to know if a child's toilet training is delayed until after the age when it's waaaaaaay too late.) Asperger's and HFA fall under the umbrella of Autism Spectrum Disorders along with Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS), Rett Syndrome, and Childhood Disintegrative Disorder. There's no way Lizzie could fall anywhere on the ASD spectrum. Even her inquest testimony flies in the face of autistic response: she would have been forced into confession five minutes after the questioning started. Even persons with autism who are telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth can be destroyed on the witness stand.

interesting about the (slight) difference between hfa and aspergers. i did know aspies have average to above average intelligence, but thought it could be perceived earlier, in childhood.

yesterday i was reading it's a myth that aspies can't lie, and we do know lizzie was a terrible liar. apparently when aspies do lie, it has to be something they believe in the moment, even if they do not believe it the moment before or afterwards. or, it has to be a lie that supports a larger truth.

a question for you, just out of curiosity. i'd assume the answer is yes, but don't want to just assume. is it possible for someone with aspergers (or any other form of autism) to also have a mental illness, such as borderline personality disorder or any of the others?

[twinsrwe]

I apologize to the members of the forum who may have seen this on Facebook.

I thought it was an interesting read since we are discussing Lizzie and her odd or peculiar ways. The following sentence, is the part I found interesting:

The oddness of Lizzie became a character trait along with her intermittent haughtiness – the latter perhaps derived from her growing knowledge she and her sister were “blood Bordens” and what that meant. But Abby, her “steppie”, ugh. Her class was beneath theirs.

(The underlining is mine).

Check it out: https://www.facebook.com/AmazingAndStun ... 5450646917

[Curryong]

Thanks, twinsrwe, for posting that. I am sure that snobbery would have come into it. Emma could well have remembered Oliver Gray, Abby's father. He was a tin merchant but also sold china and other sundries from a push-cart in the streets of Fall River. Andrew obviously didn't mind that, but as a child Emma could have seen him doing this. Perhaps Lizzie too.

[debbiediablo]

it was aspergers i was thinking of, not autism in general. thanks, mara :)

mind, i don't know a great deal about it, certainly not a fraction of what debbie knows (and thank you for all of your insights), but here's why i was thinking it:

- difficulty making friends, from an early age, and later in life as well
- so many people thinking her 'odd' or 'peculiar,' yet stating definitively she wasn't insane or mentally ill
- frequently being described as cold or expressionless
- possibly that laugh on the stairway being an example of inappropriate laughter (while knowing abby was bloody and hacked in the next room!)
- her very strong reaction to people who she felt were deceptive to her (this would, i think be especially upsetting and confusing to someone who takes things very literally)
- she was a poor student
- possibly why their mother charged emma with taking care of lizzie, knowing something was 'off' about her, but not knowing what. likewise emma

Really the only difference between high-functioning autism (HFA) and Asperger Syndrome is that developmental delays in self-help and receptive-expressive language are not seen in Asperger's. By definition, Aspies have average or above average intelligence; whereas only 1/3 of persons with autism are not mentally retarded. This 1/3 are HFA. However, as persons with Asperger's and HFA mature their expressive and receptive language look similar; they lack ability to think in abstraction. Neither look markedly odd as infants and toddlers. Only after the social, self-help and speech-language milestones should occur (and they haven't) do they become noticeable. Meaning that Lizzie's mother would not have recognized her as being 'off' at the time she died. Lizzie would've been too young. The diagnostic markers wouldn't have been noticeable. (For instance, there's no way to know if a child's toilet training is delayed until after the age when it's waaaaaaay too late.) Asperger's and HFA fall under the umbrella of Autism Spectrum Disorders along with Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS), Rett Syndrome, and Childhood Disintegrative Disorder. There's no way Lizzie could fall anywhere on the ASD spectrum. Even her inquest testimony flies in the face of autistic response: she would have been forced into confession five minutes after the questioning started. Even persons with autism who are telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth can be destroyed on the witness stand.

interesting about the (slight) difference between hfa and aspergers. i did know aspies have average to above average intelligence, but thought it could be perceived earlier, in childhood.

yesterday i was reading it's a myth that aspies can't lie, and we do know lizzie was a terrible liar. apparently when aspies do lie, it has to be something they believe in the moment, even if they do not believe it the moment before or afterwards. or, it has to be a lie that supports a larger truth.

a question for you, just out of curiosity. i'd assume the answer is yes, but don't want to just assume. is it possible for someone with aspergers (or any other form of autism) to also have a mental illness, such as borderline personality disorder or any of the others?

The myth that people with Autism Spectrum Disorders cannot lie is absolutely a myth. They can and do lie, and sometimes they know they're lying when they do it. However, people on the spectrum cannot maintain a lie; they lack the social awareness to create a convincing story and then retell it in different ways when questioned about details. In fact, they struggle to tell the truth when questioned about the details. This is because all of them have severe deficits in speech and language, and those who are HFA or AS often have better expressive language than receptive.<<<<Think about what this means. No one with an autism disorder would ever play the semantic games Lizzie played about cordiality or "Mrs. Borden."

Here is a true story about autistic perceptions of truth and lying:
Sue, to the beautician trimming her hair: "You have stinky breath."
Deb, after we leave the beauty shop: "Do you realize how rude it was to tell Karen that she has stinky breath?"
Sue: "Did you want me to lie about it?"

My daughter is the same age as Lizzie was when the murders took place, and they couldn't be more polar opposites. No one with an autism disorder would be concerned about an inheritance. Money is too abstract in what it represents to be meaningful to persons on the spectrum – even those who are very frugal and worry about saving money don't fully understand it.

The idea of social climbing laughable. To desire upward social mobility a person must possess social awareness. People with autism are lucky to have one friend or two. They may have acquaintances who 'put up' with them or 'feel sorry' for them or colleagues who try to 'include' them, but the reciprocity of friendship is difficult for them to initiate and almost impossible for them to maintain. Sooner or later something goes awry and what you get is not murder, but a meltdown aka tantrum.

Environmental predictability is what's essential. If Lizzie had been autistic she would not have killed her parents to start with; murder is a social crime. She would never have moved from her childhood home because the transition would've been unthinkable. And, of all the thousand or so persons with autism I've seen over the years, there's yet to be one who can write cursive beyond name and possibly address. For some reason this is an almost impossible skill for even the brightest autistic mind.

I promise you that Lizzie Borden had no form of Autism Spectrum Disorder...:-)))

As for co-morbidity, I never like to say 'never' but it would be pretty much impossible to have both borderline personality disorder and autism. BPDs are overly sensitive to social slights, reading insult where there is none. Taking offense when none was meant. Whereas persons with autism are often over-stimulated by almost nothing (the noise of a firecracker outside), someone with BPD often seeks excessive stimulation. While someone with autism never wants anything changed (not ever!), borderlines become easily bored and seek novelty about as often as most people change underwear.

Autism and borderline personality disorder are about as opposite as two mental health diagnoses can get.

I've seen one child with both Down Syndrome and autism; otherwise co-morbidity often occurs with ADHD, OCD, anxiety disorders, depression and Tourette Syndrome. My daughter has all five.

[twinsrwe]

Thanks, twinsrwe, for posting that. I am sure that snobbery would have come into it. Emma could well have remembered Oliver Gray, Abby's father. He was a tin merchant but also sold china and other sundries from a push-cart in the streets of Fall River. Andrew obviously didn't mind that, but as a child Emma could have seen him doing this. Perhaps Lizzie too.

You're welcome, Curryong. I have always thought Emma was a huge influence in Lizzie’s life. I also believe Lizzie displayed a great deal of haughtiness. She didn’t have any ‘good things’ to say about Abby or Abby’s family. Lizzie haughtiness was also displayed when she and Emma bought a house on French Street, and move up to ‘the hill’; her haughtiness came through again when she had ‘Maplecroft’ craved in the top step of the house.

[twinsrwe]

Debbie, your daughter is beautiful!

[debbiediablo]

Yes, she is....:-))))) Thank you!

[twinsrwe]

You're welcome!

[PossumPie]

Before I went into nursing, I was a mobile therapist working exclusively with children with Autism and Autism Spectrum Disorders. My favorite kids to work with were Asperger kids. Back in the late 90's I was frustrated b/c I was seeing kids that didn't fit any diagnosis. I even kept a list of symptoms common to them. Little did I know that when the next Diagnostic Manual of Mental Disorders came out, There was my symptom list...with the name Asperger's. Several of the above statements are indeed correct. Kids with high functioning Autism don't care about money, social standing, or bragging. They often perseverate (obsess) over strange things like time, weather, electronics, etc. They are capable of lying, but most of the time it isn't lying that is the problem, it is telling the blunt truth without filters. I once took a child with asperger's and his family to a restaurant outside of Philadelphia. Being from a semi rural area, the first thing he noticed walking in were the Afro-Americans. He said in a rather loud voice. "Wow, mom, there sure are a lot of black people in here!"

[debbiediablo]

Sue went through a period of perseverating about fungi...she brought them home by the score. I required that she catalog and store them appropriately. Then, in another moment of odd genius, she took some large Polyporaceae, rubbed them with warmed crayolas to create a rainbow effect and then shellacked over the top. They became remarkable conversation pieces. People actually asked to have them...:-)

Yes, anyone who has ever worked with the high-functioning end of this population has stories to tell about their absolute uncensored candidness. Sue once saw a guy with a tracheostomy who was still smoking. "Look Mom, that guy has a hole in his neck and there's smoke coming out!" When I said, Shhh," she thought I hadn't understood how exciting this discovery was. So she repeated, only this time at the top of her lungs, "LOOK MOM, THAT GUY HAS A HOLE IN HIS NECK AND THERE"S SMOKE COMING OUT!!!" At which time the guy with the hole in his neck came over and blew smoke right on her. Then it was, "Do it again! Do it again!"

[Catbooks]

I've seen one child with both Down Syndrome and autism; otherwise co-morbidity often occurs with ADHD, OCD, anxiety disorders, depression and Tourette Syndrome. My daughter has all five.

thanks, that's what i wanted to know. and yes, your daughter is lovely.

[PossumPie]

Children with Asperger's Syndrome are a tough lot to work with, but worth every moment. They have a special uniqueness that endears you to them. And to get back to Lizzie, no, I do not see how she could have been Asperger's or High Functioning Autism. No way. If she was the killer, I could say Sociopathic Personality Disorder.

[SallyG]

This is so interesting! Thank you, Kat and Catbooks. I would really like to know what they mean by 'ugly' but I do think it probably means subject to temper tantrums.

My grandmother, born in 1899, used to use the expression "ugly", as in "stop acting so ugly", or "don't be ugly"...meaning behaving in a nasty, obnoxious way.

It was obviously a very Victorian term.

[debbiediablo]

Good point, and the word is still used in that context "the mood of the crowd turned ugly" but less often to describe individual behavior.

[irina]

I think this may be what was referred to this evening, about sanity in the families.

[debbiediablo]

"We never heard that anyone of them is or ever was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane." This is the quote I was referring to in another forum. What I infer is they do horrific things by choice, not because they are driven by some psychobiological glitch or trauma.