Why no concern about a possible hidden intruder?

[Mara]

In re-reading the available testimony about actions taken by the key players immediately following the discovery of the murders, I'm struck by how casually everyone milled about the house, receiving callers, taking naps, changing clothes or whatever. Did no one have any sense of alarm about the possibility that there was a murderer on the premises? Andrew's corpse was fresh, if Abby's wasn't. Not only does it seem damning evidence for Lizzie's guilt that she would stay in the house right after discovering her father's body, but that she would sleep in the same house that very night -- as if she knew she had no one to fear but herself.

What do you all think about that?

[missy777]

Agreed. I wouldn't have spent a second longer than
I had to in that house...
(excuse my jumping in as a newbie here)

[Mara]

Oh, glad I'm not the only one! Something I should have included in my initial post was this: Why didn't someone in authority order the house cleared until it could be determined that no threat exists to anyone still alive in it at the hand of some still-lurking murderer? Seems like it was only searched for evidence, not with this in mind. Or did I miss something?

[Franz]

When alerted by Lizzie, Bridget neither didn't think that the killer could be still hiding somewhere in the house. Nor Mrs. Churchill a very few minutes later.

But it's true that Lizzie shouted to Bridget: someone came in and killed father.

[NancyDrew]

Mara,

This is one of the most damning pieces of evidence pointing to Lizzie's guilt, in my opinion. Not only wasn't LIzzie afraid to be alone in the house, but Mrs. Churchhill didn't think of it, or Dr. Bowen, or Bridgette, or even the first police officer (George Allen) on the scene! It boggles the mind that NO ONE thought to say "Okay, everyone outside, while a thorough search is conducted to be sure there is no one hiding someone within the house." No one said, not one person. Insane, isn't it?

But then again, the whole case is insane. There is no scenario one can dream up (she did it, she didn't do it, she did it with someone's help, etc) that doesn't contain huge problems and improbabilities. Unless of course, they were ALL in on it.

[leitskev]

I believe it's likely Lizzie did it. But I don't find the fact that she stayed with the house at all suspicious. In fact, I think she did what most people would do. She called for Bridget, and then waited right in the side doorway...which is how Mrs. Churchill saw her. From that spot, she could run if she heard someone else in the house. Instinct is to stay with the house and with your dead parent. But she was effectively outside the house, right in the open doorway where Churchill could yell to her.

As far as the people who initially arrived, I doubt they suspected Lizzie in the early moments. They probably assumed that someone had killed Andrew and then run off.

[NancyDrew]

Franz:

We don't if it is true that Lizzie shouted to Bridgette "come quick-some has come in and killed father." We only Lizzie and Bridgette's word that this what happened, and either or both of them could have lied.

[Franz]

Franz:

We don't if it is true that Lizzie shouted to Bridgette "come quick-some has come in and killed father." We only Lizzie and Bridgette's word that this what happened, and either or both of them could have lied.

Yes NancyDrew, about what Lizzie shouted to Bridget, we have only the testimonies of Lizzie and Bridget. But if I recall correctly, their testimonies were the same. So we should think: 1) or they both told the truth; 2) or they both lied.

If they both lied, what conclusion should we make?

Yes, no one thought that the killer could be still hiding in the house, but meanwhile, I think that no one (from the very first Bridget) suspected at that very first moment that the killer could be Lizzie (unless if Bridget was involved somehow in the case). Under the shock of such a murder, every one had no room in mind that the killer could be still in the house. I think this could happen in circumstance of this kind. And most likely, as Leitskev said, people couldhave thought that the killer had escaped.

And Lizzie, if innocent, could have more reason to think so, because, I repeat here, she had been worried for her father's safety. Seeing her father murdered, Lizzie could have thought instinctively that the killer, after having accomplished what he wanted to do, had escaped off the house. So in my opinion, Lizzie's reaction (not leaving immediately the house) certainly could not be in favor of her innocence, but I don't consider it neither as a circumstancial evidence against her. Because, in my opinion, something considered as a (circumstancial) evidence must have only one interpretation which indicates exclusively the guilt of someone. This is not the case for Lizzie, since we could, at least I think so, interprete her reaction(s) in different manners.

[Mara]

Bridget's testimony is that Lizzie called up to her room, ("Maggie, come down!" I said, "What is the matter?" She says, "Come down quick; Father's dead; somebody came in and killed him.") But she stayed there. When she caught Mrs. Churchill's eye a bit later, she was still there, seen standing inside the screen door. At that time, according to Mrs. Churchill's testimony, she called out something like, "Do come over. Someone has killed father," in a use of passive voice that reminds me of the hilarious faux-genteel Anita Loos character, Lorelei Lee, explaining to the law how a man she'd killed "became shot." But that's beside the point.

The sudden discovery of Andrew's body should certainly have driven her outside, I think, if only to spread the alarm. As leitskev points out, she did at least make it to the side door. But we have no evidence that she exited the house through that door, only that she stood in it. If I'd been Lizzie (and innocent), I think I'd have hustled over to Mrs. Churchill's or Dr. Bowen's as fast as my high-button shoes would permit, even if it mussed my hair a little.

Other than calling the murder's attention to Bridget and Mrs. Churchill, why no frantic cry to watch or search for an escaping murderer? I should think it very likely that an innocent Lizzie would have been fearful that if the murderer hadn't escaped, he would still be somewhere about, indoors or not. And there was good reason to think this way. The screen door was probably locked. Bridget doesn't tell us if she or Mr. Borden successfully locked the front door after she let him in. In that lock-happy household, we may presume so. No windows were open in the first floor, because Bridget had just washed and rinsed them; she says nothing of having opened them before going upstairs for her brief lie-down. Run, Lizzie, run! But no. "I don't do anything in a hurry."

I simply cannot imagine there having been no attempt to clear the house and search it as soon as the murders were discovered, especially when the police got involved. There were searches, and we know that the search of the clothes closet was partly conducted to discover a possible hiding man but heavens, Lizzie, who'd been lounging across the way with friends to console her in her unspeakable grief, had to let them into that room -- that's how concerned they were that the entire family, Lizzie included, might have been the murderer's targets.

[PossumPie]

I'm more suspicious of the fact that almost immediately Lizzie told people the was "Sure" she heard Mrs. Borden come in so please go look for her. All of the shouting, the people in the house, and Mrs. Borden didn't come down to see what was going on? Lizzie knew that she was dead. Perhaps a gut feeling, or maybe she knew for a fact...?

[Mara]

PossumPie, yes, I thought about that, too. Such an odd (that word again!), casual afterthought. If Lizzie was guilty, which I believe she was, she was certainly one cold hand.

[goddessoftheclassroom]

PossumPie, I don't think Lizzie was the murderer (at least alone). I think Lizzie saw Mrs. Borden's body from the stairs but didn't want to be the one to discover it.

[leitskev]

I have also found it strange the way she sent people looking for Abby like that. Lizzie really was not at all clever. All she had to do was wait, someone eventually would have searched. Why the lack of patience? It's almost as if some part of her was proud of the killing and couldn't wait for it to be discovered.

[FactFinder]

I think Lizzie wanted to be in control of the situation. Several people thought of looking for Abby but no one at first thought of looking for her in the house. Because according to Lizzie Abby had gone out on a sick call. Bridget wanted to go look for her at Mrs. Whitehead's. So then Lizzie repeats the story of thinking she heard Abby come in and wanting someone to go and look for her. I believe she tried to get Abby discovered right off the bat by telling Mrs. Churchill she thought she heard her come in.

[Curryong]

As soon as Bridget rushed downstairs Lizzie seemed to want to get her out of the house, which she did successfully. Wonder why. A little jig, a bit of a giggle to herself, a quick survey of the crime scene near Andrew to make sure that no daintily gnawed pears or ladies magazine lay suspiciously near? Something quickly burned in the stove or a quick check on the weapon to see if it was completely secured, perhaps. It would have been only momentary before she headed to the side door. Perhaps she just wanted a moment to herself before the greatest soap opera of her life unfolded, with herself as the chief actor.

[FactFinder]

As soon as Bridget rushed downstairs Lizzie seemed to want to get her out of the house, which she did successfully. Wonder why. A little jig, a bit of a giggle to herself, a quick survey of the crime scene near Andrew to make sure that no daintily gnawed pears or ladies magazine lay suspiciously near? Something quickly burned in the stove or a quick check on the weapon to see if it was completely secured, perhaps. It would have been only momentary before she headed to the side door. Perhaps she just wanted a moment to herself before the greatest soap opera of her life unfolded, with herself as the chief actor.

Curryong I truly enjoy your observations. Calling Lizzie an actor pretty much sums up how I feel about her actions on the day of the murders. It's possible she sent Bridget away to give herself a little more time surveying the crime scene and to get the ball rolling. She never let Bridget get past the back hall. I wonder if living across the street from Dr. Bowen for as many years as they did and with him being the family doctor if Lizzie wasn't aware that he would be out making his morning rounds at that time?

[Curryong]

Thanks FactFinder. Although I do sometimes try and keep my posts lighthearted, in this case I do definitely feel that Lizzie wanted Bridget out of the way for the moment, for whatever reason. Yes, I am sure that those living near to a doctor would know when he was on his rounds. However, for Lizzie it may well have been one excuse (to get Bridget to go) was as good as another!

[PossumPie]

I've often said it won't be some big glaring fact that convinces people one way or another, it is the small overlooked things that are impressive. Books focus on rehashing all of the tired old ideas, but some active digging brings up more subtle points.
- Lizzie made several attempts to get people to go upstairs and find Mrs. Borden, Why?
-Reading ALL of the witness statements, and coordinating them shows that until Bridget and Mr. Borden fumbled with the locks to let him in the house that morning, the Front door had never been unlocked from the night locking with a key. It was still locked from the nighttime. No one could have sneaked in through the front door.
-To kill someone with a hatchet without them screaming out in alarm, you MUST sneak up from behind, or be trusted by the individual to get close enough without suspicion, The only way a stranger could have killed either Borden would be to sneak into the house unseen by anyone, know exactly where they were, and sneak up behind them without being seen or heard. IF it were Lizzie or Bridget, they didn't need to sneak at all.
-The killer (if a stranger) would have had no way of knowing that when they sneaked downstairs with a hatchet in hand, that the whole family wouldn't be standing there in the front hall. There were no closed circuit TV's, the killer would have been screwed if they got halfway down the steps and Mr. Borden would have been standing there at the bottom.
- Lizzie shouted up from the first floor to the third for Bridget to "come quick, someone has killed father!" YET she was not surprised when this yell didn't also bring Mrs. Borden running? It's these little subtle things that are more persuasive to me.
-There just happened to be a bucket of bloody rags that could be easily explained and not searched in a house where two people were covered with blood.

[FactFinder]

Bridget's testimony is that Lizzie called up to her room, ("Maggie, come down!" I said, "What is the matter?" She says, "Come down quick; Father's dead; somebody came in and killed him.") But she stayed there. When she caught Mrs. Churchill's eye a bit later, she was still there, seen standing inside the screen door. At that time, according to Mrs. Churchill's testimony, she called out something like, "Do come over. Someone has killed father," in a use of passive voice that reminds me of the hilarious faux-genteel Anita Loos character, Lorelei Lee, explaining to the law how a man she'd killed "became shot." But that's beside the point.

The sudden discovery of Andrew's body should certainly have driven her outside, I think, if only to spread the alarm. As leitskev points out, she did at least make it to the side door. But we have no evidence that she exited the house through that door, only that she stood in it. If I'd been Lizzie (and innocent), I think I'd have hustled over to Mrs. Churchill's or Dr. Bowen's as fast as my high-button shoes would permit, even if it mussed my hair a little.

Other than calling the murder's attention to Bridget and Mrs. Churchill, why no frantic cry to watch or search for an escaping murderer? I should think it very likely that an innocent Lizzie would have been fearful that if the murderer hadn't escaped, he would still be somewhere about, indoors or not. And there was good reason to think this way. The screen door was probably locked. Bridget doesn't tell us if she or Mr. Borden successfully locked the front door after she let him in. In that lock-happy household, we may presume so. No windows were open in the first floor, because Bridget had just washed and rinsed them; she says nothing of having opened them before going upstairs for her brief lie-down. Run, Lizzie, run! But no. "I don't do anything in a hurry."

I simply cannot imagine there having been no attempt to clear the house and search it as soon as the murders were discovered, especially when the police got involved. There were searches, and we know that the search of the clothes closet was partly conducted to discover a possible hiding man but heavens, Lizzie, who'd been lounging across the way with friends to console her in her unspeakable grief, had to let them into that room -- that's how concerned they were that the entire family, Lizzie included, might have been the murderer's targets.

You raised a point that got me thinking Mara. Why did Lizzie call Bridget down to go for a doctor in the first place? Why didn't Lizzie run for help herself? It was common practice to send the servants out on errands but this was no regular errand. Lizzie made no attempts at getting a doctor herself, calling for the authorities, stepping outside to yell for help on a busy street, or looking for Abby, and she stayed inside after discovering her father's body. There were three doctors living within walking distance. One next door, one across the street, one directly behind the Borden's house. I'm not sure if Lizzie knew that Dr. Kelly and Dr. Bowen were not at home or not. But she made no attempts to find out. Bridget did say in her statements that she opened the windows after she washed them. I believe it was one window in the sitting room and one window in the dining room. But I don't see anyone climbing in or out of them unnoticed because they sit a good distance off the ground. But how would Lizzie know the person was not still in the house unless she was the killer? And send the only other living person away immediately? This for me has always been pretty damning.

[Nadzieja]

Lizzie's reaction has always puzzled me. Your talking about a time that did not have radio or television, just newspapers. People did not see (like we do on the evening news) pictures of murders or reports of horrendous violence. We are desensitized to see these things from crime shows etc.... However even with tv if I walked in and saw my dad in a pool of blood I'd be out the door screaming my head off. No way would I be calm and stay in the house alone with a body. She is just so calm that it just seems not right to me. This is one point that has baffled me from the beginning.

[Aamartin]

even today , when we see victims of terrible accidents people plead with paramedics , doctors, etc to do something. Lizzie accepted immediately that her father was dead.

[Franz]

even today , when we see victims of terrible accidents people please with paramedics , doctors, etc to do something. Lizzie accepted immediately that her father was dead.

I don't understand well what you said, Aamartin.

In my opinion, the scene of her father's body (head very badly attacked) made Lizzie think that Andrew was (probably) dead. There is nothing of strange for me.

Secondly, this is not my opinion but a fact: Lizzie did ask Bridget to find Dr. Bowen, just as you said "even today...", indeed.

[Aamartin]

even today , when we see victims of terrible accidents people please with paramedics , doctors, etc to do something. Lizzie accepted immediately that her father was dead.

I don't understand well what you said, Aamartin.

In my opinion, the scene of her father's body (head very badly attacked) made Lizzie think that Andrew was (probably) dead. There is nothing of strange for me.

Secondly, this is not my opinion but a fact: Lizzie did ask Bridget to find Dr. Bowen, just as you said "even today...", indeed.

I just don't think that people immediately accept the death of a loved one..... Lizzie called up to Bridget that someone 'killed' father-- not that he was injured or hurt-- he was dead.

Maybe it's just me-- but she skipped through those famed 7 stages of grieving within seconds and I find that odd. I don't think I would be in a state of mind to be all that rational if I stumbled upon a hacked up head-- loved one or not.

[FactFinder]

even today , when we see victims of terrible accidents people please with paramedics , doctors, etc to do something. Lizzie accepted immediately that her father was dead.

I don't understand well what you said, Aamartin.

In my opinion, the scene of her father's body (head very badly attacked) made Lizzie think that Andrew was (probably) dead. There is nothing of strange for me.

Secondly, this is not my opinion but a fact: Lizzie did ask Bridget to find Dr. Bowen, just as you said "even today...", indeed.

I just don't think that people immediately accept the death of a loved one..... Lizzie called up to Bridget that someone 'killed' father-- not that he was injured or hurt-- he was dead.

Maybe it's just me-- but she skipped through those famed 7 stages of grieving within seconds and I find that odd. I don't think I would be in a state of mind to be all that rational if I stumbled upon a hacked up head-- loved one or not.

Well said Aamartin and I am in complete agreement. And though Lizzie sent Bridget to get Dr. Bowen, when she found out Dr. Bowen was not at home she sends Bridget for someone other than a doctor. Or the authorities. Or anyone who could help with the situation. She made no attempts to find a doctor herself, or call the authorities herself. She just stood at the back door and waited. If I found someone I loved hacked to pieces I don't think I'd just be calmly standing at the back door waiting on someone else to get help. She could have went outside and just started yelling for help for that matter. That would have gotten attention. But she just calmly sends Bridget out to look for Alice Russell, who could do what for the situation?

[Mara]

FactFinder, that's a good one, about Alice Russell. Of all people! Well, she was a friend, and maybe Lizzie felt she needed a friend. Especially a friend who had heard her say, only the night before, that some ominous thing was about to befall the Borden household. This would be useful perspective to have on hand when the cops showed up.

Oh Lizzie, you minx.

[Franz]

...
Well said Aamartin and I am in complete agreement. And though Lizzie sent Bridget to get Dr. Bowen, when she found out Dr. Bowen was not at home she sends Bridget for someone other than a doctor. Or the authorities. Or anyone who could help with the situation. She made no attempts to find a doctor herself, or call the authorities herself. She just stood at the back door and waited. If I found someone I loved hacked to pieces I don't think I'd just be calmly standing at the back door waiting on someone else to get help. She could have went outside and just started yelling for help for that matter. That would have gotten attention. But she just calmly sends Bridget out to look for Alice Russell, who could do what for the situation?

1. FactFinder, do you permit others to react differently than you before a same tragic situation?

2. According to Mrs. Churchill's testimony, Lizzie didn't stand there calmly, as you said twice here.

[Aamartin]

...
Well said Aamartin and I am in complete agreement. And though Lizzie sent Bridget to get Dr. Bowen, when she found out Dr. Bowen was not at home she sends Bridget for someone other than a doctor. Or the authorities. Or anyone who could help with the situation. She made no attempts to find a doctor herself, or call the authorities herself. She just stood at the back door and waited. If I found someone I loved hacked to pieces I don't think I'd just be calmly standing at the back door waiting on someone else to get help. She could have went outside and just started yelling for help for that matter. That would have gotten attention. But she just calmly sends Bridget out to look for Alice Russell, who could do what for the situation?

1. FactFinder, do you permit others to react differently than you before a same tragic situation?

2. According to Mrs. Churchill's testimony, Lizzie didn't stand there calmly, as you said twice here.

Franz, if you came into your home, from being away, or just having stepped outside to masturbate, smoke or drink-- or whatever-- and found one of your loved ones hacked to death on the sofa-- would you stay in the house? (you don't have a landline and your cell phone is dead)

[Franz]

...
Well said Aamartin and I am in complete agreement. And though Lizzie sent Bridget to get Dr. Bowen, when she found out Dr. Bowen was not at home she sends Bridget for someone other than a doctor. Or the authorities. Or anyone who could help with the situation. She made no attempts to find a doctor herself, or call the authorities herself. She just stood at the back door and waited. If I found someone I loved hacked to pieces I don't think I'd just be calmly standing at the back door waiting on someone else to get help. She could have went outside and just started yelling for help for that matter. That would have gotten attention. But she just calmly sends Bridget out to look for Alice Russell, who could do what for the situation?

1. FactFinder, do you permit others to react differently than you before a same tragic situation?

2. According to Mrs. Churchill's testimony, Lizzie didn't stand there calmly, as you said twice here.

Franz, if you came into your home, from being away, or just having stepped outside to masturbate, smoke or drink-- or whatever-- and found one of your loved ones hacked to death on the sofa-- would you stay in the house? (you don't have a landline and your cell phone is dead)

If I were Lizzie I would, because, --- assuming that Lizzie was innocent --- Lizzie had been worring very much about her father's life saftey. When she found her father attacked, she could have thought instinctively --- and I could have thought as her --- that the killer, having accomplished what he wanted (to kill Andrew), should have escaped away (when she was in the barn). So she didn't leave the house where the killer --- she believed --- was no more. If I were in this context, I could have acted exactly as Lizzie.

[Aamartin]

I don't think that is realistic. You can look at something like this and say that-- but finding a battered in head is another thing all together.

[FactFinder]

Franz, to just stand at the back door and not raise an alarm is for me behaving relatively calmly after finding your father murdered. If she was that worried about her father's safety standing at the back door rubbing your head is not doing anything to help him. Neither is sending for someone who is not a doctor or a policemen. Go find help. Get help yourself. But instead she simply stood at the back door waiting. That for me is relatively calm.

[Franz]

Franz, if you came into your home, from being away, or just having stepped outside to masturbate, smoke or drink-- or whatever-- and found one of your loved ones hacked to death on the sofa-- would you stay in the house? (you don't have a landline and your cell phone is dead)

If I were Lizzie I would, because, --- assuming that Lizzie was innocent --- Lizzie had been worring very much about her father's life saftey. When she found her father attacked, she could have thought instinctively --- and I could have thought as her --- that the killer, having accomplished what he wanted (to kill Andrew), should have escaped away (when she was in the barn). So she didn't leave the house where the killer --- she believed --- was no more. If I were in this context, I could have acted exactly as Lizzie.[/quote]

P.S.: And for the same reason, I don't consider as a circumstancial evidence against Lizzie the fact the she didn't leave the house after the discovery of her father's body.

[Franz]

Franz, to just stand at the back door and not raise an alarm is for me behaving relatively calmly after finding your father murdered. If she was that worried about her father's safety standing at the back door rubbing your head is not doing anything to help him. Neither is sending for someone who is not a doctor or a policemen. Go find help. Get help yourself. But instead she simply stood at the back door waiting. That for me is relatively calm.

You can certainly think so, FactFinder.

[Mara]

An innocent Lizzie would have absolutely no reason to believe that the killer wasn't still very near at hand. Andrew's head, even when viewed by Dr. Bowen later, was still dripping fresh blood. Even if this evidence hadn't registered with her, she surely knew the murder had taken place only a short time before. Whether she did or did not see anyone escaping the house during her alleged visit to the barn, it defies both logic and gut instinct that she hung around the way she did.

[Franz]

I don't think that is realistic. You can look at something like this and say that-- but finding a battered in head is another thing all together.

Now I am not speaking to defend anyone (Lizzie included), but it's really true that every human being may react differently before a same situation.

And return to Lizzie, some other members have pointed that Lizzie was indeed standing in a pretty safe place, which would permit her to escape immediately, if necessary.

[PossumPie]

I don't think that is realistic. You can look at something like this and say that-- but finding a battered in head is another thing all together.

Now I am not speaking to defend anyone (Lizzie included), but it's really true that every human being may react differently before a same situation.

And return to Lizzie, some other members have pointed that Lizzie was indeed standing in a pretty safe place, which would permit her to escape immediately, if necessary.

Franz, you are correct. Everyone responds differently after seeing their father hacked up with a hatchet, but as I said in another thread, we can defend any one strange thing Lizzie said, did, or lied about, BUT it is more about the overall PATTERN of things that points to her possible guilt. At what point do we ask "Why the heck am I constantly defending all the weird, twisted, cold, strange things this woman said, did, didn't do, or lied about???" I guarantee that if 100 people testified that they saw her standing in the doorway smoking and laughing to herself, after finding her dead father, there would be somebody who said "Poor woman, must be in shock"

[Mara]

I guarantee that if 100 people testified that they saw her standing in the doorway smoking and laughing to herself, after finding her dead father, there would be somebody who said "Poor woman, must be in shock"

This got my whole day off to a happy start this morning! Good one!

[SallyG]

Lizzie knew, since she was the one who hatcheted both parents, that there was no one else in the house, therefore she had no fear of being alone with the bodies! I think the others took their cue from her. If she had run screaming from the house, no one else would have gone inside either!

[Mara]

SallyG, yep, I think you're right that this is the most obvious conclusion to draw from Lizzie's remaining in the house after discovering her father's bloody corpse; i.e., that she created the bloody corpse herself.

You raise an interesting "what if": what if Lizzie had run from the house screaming and rending her clothes, like something out of a silent movie melodrama? How would people have interpreted that, especially if they knew her well (or as well as anyone did). I'd love to hear some speculation that could tap into what we think we know about how she was perceived by others before the "tragedy."

[Curryong]

I do think, all the same, (and whatever their later suspicions were about 'who dun it') that Bridget and Mrs Churchill were quite brave to go upstairs and face whatever was up there in the bedrooms. Lizzie of course didn't volunteer. Let someone else discover her handiwork!

[PossumPie]

I do think, all the same, (and whatever their later suspicions were about 'who dun it') that Bridget and Mrs Churchill were quite brave to go upstairs and face whatever was up there in the bedrooms. Lizzie of course didn't volunteer. Let someone else discover her handiwork!

In another thread I bring up how strange it was that almost immediately Lizzie insisted that someone go up and find Mrs. Borden. She insisted that she heard Mrs. Borden return to the house (A lie b/c she never LEFT the house) and please could someone go find her...I point out that with Lizzie screaming up from the 1st floor to the 3rd floor, and later all of the police and noise downstairs, didn't Lizzie wonder why Mrs. Borden didn't come down to see what was going on? Of course not- she was dead, but how did Lizzie know that?

[FactFinder]

Many people over the years have raised the same points about Lizzie's reaction to finding the body as PossumPie. The idea that Abby would not have known what was going on after all the commotion and come down is one of the biggest indications that Lizzie should have known she had not come in. Lizzie claims in her inquest that she never said she thought she heard Abby come in. I think even Lizzie realized this error in judgement.

[Mara]

Yes. "I think I heard her come in" -- yet in spite of all the commotion in the house, didn't try to find out what the fuss was but just went -- where? Up the front stairs? Not to her own room, up the back stairs, but...where did Lizzie think she might have gone? Stupid lie. "Please everybody, go see what else I did. It will, it will shock you."

[Indecisive]

I haven't yet made up my mind on who I think did it.

I've been thinking about this. If we read any report or documentary about all kinds of extreme situations, like violence crimes, accidents, natural disasters, we can see that people can react in very different ways when faced with something scary and unexpected. Some of them freeze up, some scream and run, others seem to be able to act. Does that mean that they're all in on it? No. It just means that people have different reactions to stress. We can't know what Lizzie's reaction type truly was.

Here's a possible interpretation of the events: Lizzie walks into the room and finds her father. Maybe she stands there for several moments, shocked. Then she goes to the window and calls to Bridget for help. The fact that she said her father was dead is not so suspicious, given the descriptions of the crime scene it's not so difficult to assume that he was dead. We're also basing ourselves on the words she called out to Bridget and it may simply have gotten the point across better to say that. If she sent Bridget to get her friend, maybe she just needed someone to help her go through the necessary steps of calling the doctor and the police, even just be there to support her and comfort her. Then, she goes to wait by the back door. If she was afraid that the murderer was still in the house then it makes sense to remain outside, even in a spot where others could see her or hear her if the intruder came outside. At the same time, she may have been reluctant to abandon her father's body completely. She might have thought it was safer to stay outside the door to warn anyone coming in to be careful with an intruder, even. The fact that she wasn't running around screaming doesn't mean that she was calm. She could have been nervous and trying to process the events. Knowing her father was dead and immediately acting to send for help is one thing, truly getting what had happened is another matter.

Her mention of her stepmother coming home could just be because she had heard the door and dismissed it was Bridget coming in or out of the house, even known it was her stepmother but paid no attention to her. Maybe she just guessed her stepmother would have been back and didn't want to be the one to go check, guessing (correctly) that her stepmother couldn't have been alive or she would have heard all the commotion going on in the house.

[PossumPie]

I haven't yet made up my mind on who I think did it.

I've been thinking about this. If we read any report or documentary about all kinds of extreme situations, like violence crimes, accidents, natural disasters, we can see that people can react in very different ways when faced with something scary and unexpected. Some of them freeze up, some scream and run, others seem to be able to act. Does that mean that they're all in on it? No. It just means that people have different reactions to stress. We can't know what Lizzie's reaction type truly was.

Here's a possible interpretation of the events: Lizzie walks into the room and finds her father. Maybe she stands there for several moments, shocked. Then she goes to the window and calls to Bridget for help. The fact that she said her father was dead is not so suspicious, given the descriptions of the crime scene it's not so difficult to assume that he was dead. We're also basing ourselves on the words she called out to Bridget and it may simply have gotten the point across better to say that. If she sent Bridget to get her friend, maybe she just needed someone to help her go through the necessary steps of calling the doctor and the police, even just be there to support her and comfort her. Then, she goes to wait by the back door. If she was afraid that the murderer was still in the house then it makes sense to remain outside, even in a spot where others could see her or hear her if the intruder came outside. At the same time, she may have been reluctant to abandon her father's body completely. She might have thought it was safer to stay outside the door to warn anyone coming in to be careful with an intruder, even. The fact that she wasn't running around screaming doesn't mean that she was calm. She could have been nervous and trying to process the events. Knowing her father was dead and immediately acting to send for help is one thing, truly getting what had happened is another matter.

Her mention of her stepmother coming home could just be because she had heard the door and dismissed it was Bridget coming in or out of the house, even known it was her stepmother but paid no attention to her. Maybe she just guessed her stepmother would have been back and didn't want to be the one to go check, guessing (correctly) that her stepmother couldn't have been alive or she would have heard all the commotion going on in the house.

I agree with the confusion of the moment, however gathering ALL the testimony from all the witnesses regarding this, Lizzie tells Bridget immediately after finding Mr. Borden that Lizzie had been out in the yard, heard a moan, and came running in. She later said she was in the barn, heard a scraping noise in the house, and came in. Later still she says that she NEVER TOLD ANYONE that she heard a moan or a scrape, but heard nothing, and was not in the yard but upstairs in the barn.

Sorting out confusion, forgetfulness, from outright lies is very difficult. To say "I was reading a magazine" then later say "I was reading a book" is understandable forgetfulness about something that was trivial. To forget that you were at the back door and heard a moan, then later say upstairs in the barn and heard nothing, is not forgetfulness, but changing extremely important details about your story. It struck me in the preliminary testimony as to how Bridget says "I don't remember" or "I don't know" While Lizzie plods ahead, gives answers like "I was upstairs in my room basting a piece of fabric when Father came home" then swears not only that she was NOT upstairs when he came home, but that she NEVER said that she was...even when read back to her she denied saying it.

[Indecisive]

I haven't yet made up my mind on who I think did it.

I've been thinking about this. If we read any report or documentary about all kinds of extreme situations, like violence crimes, accidents, natural disasters, we can see that people can react in very different ways when faced with something scary and unexpected. Some of them freeze up, some scream and run, others seem to be able to act. Does that mean that they're all in on it? No. It just means that people have different reactions to stress. We can't know what Lizzie's reaction type truly was.

Here's a possible interpretation of the events: Lizzie walks into the room and finds her father. Maybe she stands there for several moments, shocked. Then she goes to the window and calls to Bridget for help. The fact that she said her father was dead is not so suspicious, given the descriptions of the crime scene it's not so difficult to assume that he was dead. We're also basing ourselves on the words she called out to Bridget and it may simply have gotten the point across better to say that. If she sent Bridget to get her friend, maybe she just needed someone to help her go through the necessary steps of calling the doctor and the police, even just be there to support her and comfort her. Then, she goes to wait by the back door. If she was afraid that the murderer was still in the house then it makes sense to remain outside, even in a spot where others could see her or hear her if the intruder came outside. At the same time, she may have been reluctant to abandon her father's body completely. She might have thought it was safer to stay outside the door to warn anyone coming in to be careful with an intruder, even. The fact that she wasn't running around screaming doesn't mean that she was calm. She could have been nervous and trying to process the events. Knowing her father was dead and immediately acting to send for help is one thing, truly getting what had happened is another matter.

Her mention of her stepmother coming home could just be because she had heard the door and dismissed it was Bridget coming in or out of the house, even known it was her stepmother but paid no attention to her. Maybe she just guessed her stepmother would have been back and didn't want to be the one to go check, guessing (correctly) that her stepmother couldn't have been alive or she would have heard all the commotion going on in the house.

I agree with the confusion of the moment, however gathering ALL the testimony from all the witnesses regarding this, Lizzie tells Bridget immediately after finding Mr. Borden that Lizzie had been out in the yard, heard a moan, and came running in. She later said she was in the barn, heard a scraping noise in the house, and came in. Later still she says that she NEVER TOLD ANYONE that she heard a moan or a scrape, but heard nothing, and was not in the yard but upstairs in the barn.

Sorting out confusion, forgetfulness, from outright lies is very difficult. To say "I was reading a magazine" then later say "I was reading a book" is understandable forgetfulness about something that was trivial. To forget that you were at the back door and heard a moan, then later say upstairs in the barn and heard nothing, is not forgetfulness, but changing extremely important details about your story. It struck me in the preliminary testimony as to how Bridget says "I don't remember" or "I don't know" While Lizzie plods ahead, gives answers like "I was upstairs in my room basting a piece of fabric when Father came home" then swears not only that she was NOT upstairs when he came home, but that she NEVER said that she was...even when read back to her she denied saying it.

That is true. However, I wonder if it's possible that Lizzie couldn't remember exactly what she did (due to shock and confusion) and was afraid that it would sound incriminating, as of course it does sound suspicious. I've read about people in sudden and horrible situations reacting immediately but being unable to remember very well what exactly happened and even what they did.

I think it's also possible that whatever Lizzie was doing was unrelated to the murder but she didn't want to reveal it for fear that it would be used against her. Then she tries to come up with a story, but every time she realizes that would just raise more questions or could be proved wrong so she tries to find another story.

[Mara]

Hi, Indecisive. Welcome to the madhouse! :)

We know that Lizzie was concerned about how her behavior might be perceived by others. She explained why she didn't run screaming out of the house by saying something like, "I thought about that, but that's what killers do: they run." Really, Lizzie? That occurred to you right after seeing your father in the sitting room with his face looking a million times worse than the "Before" picture in a 1980s ProActive commercial? And yet, she thought nothing of how it would look to burn the dress she might have been wearing the morning of the murders, in full potential view of the cops?

So...got any ideas who might have dun nit, if not Lizzie? It's fun to discuss theories.

[Indecisive]

Hi, Indecisive. Welcome to the madhouse! :)

We know that Lizzie was concerned about how her behavior might be perceived by others. She explained why she didn't run screaming out of the house by saying something like, "I thought about that, but that's what killers do: they run." Really, Lizzie? That occurred to you right after seeing your father in the sitting room with his face looking a million times worse than the "Before" picture in a 1980s ProActive commercial? And yet, she thought nothing of how it would look to burn the dress she might have been wearing the morning of the murders, in full potential view of the cops?

So...got any ideas who might have dun nit, if not Lizzie? It's fun to discuss theories.

Thank you for the welcome

I agree, that sounds like a strange thing to worry about. At the same time, I wonder if an innocent person really wouldn't care about how they looked to the police. If she was innocent and knew she was, she may have been afraid of being blamed for the crime because of how suspicious it looked.

Nowadays, we have all kinds of technology like DNA analysis and fingerprinting. Law enforcement agencies have a developed protocol they're supposed to follow upon arriving at a crime scene. Yet, we still have crimes that go unsolved, even crimes that have suspects but take years to be tried because of a lack of evidence to absolve them or condemn them in court. In Lizzie's time there were no such things, while the police had procedures they had to observe, they were very different from today's procedures. If Lizzie was innocent, the fact that we're discussing theories on this forum goes to show how suspicious things looked for her, and knowing that may have worried her.

I don't know who think did it, frankly. I can see everyone's arguments and part of the mystery is that it would take a big breakthrough to truly be able to know. If Lizzie didn't do it (alone or with an accomplice), then her uncle (not necessarily alone) or someone who had a grudge against Mr. Borden for some reason sound like possible options.

[SallyG]

Lizzies story about the note Abby supposedly got was a huge give away! IF Abby had gotten a note, the person who sent that note would have come forward...there was no reason not to. The person who delivered the note would have come forward...again, no reason not to. They would not have been implicated in the murder whatsoever. If someone sent a note summoning Abby due to sickness, it would have been someone Abby knew...but no one EVER came forward to say they had sent a note that morning needing Abby...no one!

If Abby had answered the door that morning to receive a note, would she have locked everything up tight again with the night latch on, knowing Andrew would be coming home later and needing to get in? No. Even Bridget had left the night latch off when she unlocked the door to let Andrew in...and after the murders it was found locked again!!

When asked about the note shortly after the murder, Lizzie said she could not find it after she had made a search for it. If memory serves me correctly, this was right after the murders had been discovered. Now...why would she make a "search" for the note, even searching Abby's "pocket" (purse) for it? What reason would she have had to find the note? Idle curiously to see who had summoned Abby? Or did she just need to establish that, yes, Abby had gotten a note that called her out (to explain Abby's absence during the morning), but, no, the note had disappeared (to explain the absence of the note).

Once Andrew's body had been "discovered" and the cast was assembled, it was now time to find Abby's body and get the show on the road! Lizzie knew where Abby was...she just had to direct people to her...so, even though NO ONE ELSE heard anyone come in, Lizzie stated she was SURE she heard Abby come in. Now which door did Abby come in? Certainly not the back door...she would have encountered strangers in her house. Would Abby have just casually gone upstairs to her room? I doubt it. But wait...there is the key Abby would have needed to retreive from the sitting room mantle to get into her bedroom!! Now certainly she would have seen Andrew on the couch, hacked to death! So she did not come in the back door!

The front door? Well..as I recall she did not have the key to the front door...she had stated previously to someone that "they" had taken her key! Besides, the night lock was back on at that point! So she did not enter at the front door! So how did Lizzie "hear" her come in? Obviously she DIDN'T...but it was time to find Abby and she needed to direct everyone to her, therefore she THOUGHT she heard Abby come in...and pleaded for a search to be made for her! Time for Abby to be "discovered"!! Lizzie was orchestrating everything up to then...once Abby was found she could sit back and let things take their course!

[phineas]

I'm bothered by the lack of any blood at all when Lizzie sends up the alarm, someone's killed father....she does not go near the body, doesn't brush it, doesn't touch her father's hand. She doesn't physically check on Andrew and remains pristine. If she'd even come close, blood on the carpet would have hit her hem. While some people recoil at death and freeze, Lizzie had her wits about her by giving Bridget orders - multiple times. An innocent person might try to touch the victim back in pre-CSI days before we'd been trained to not touch anything. The only blood is the single spot on her petticoat or underskirt - the supposed flea bite. Someone who examined it thought the drop was made from outside, not inside, because it was heavier on the outer side. I'd love to know where it was, closer to the hem or higher? Front or back? Did her skirt hike up during a swing? Sure wish that skirt existed in evidence somewhere and could be DNA'd. If it was Abby's blood that would seal the whole thing. I have a personal theory that Lizzie learned from her first murder when she was bloodied, had time to clean up, burn THAT dress, and covered herself with Andrew; it's the only way I can see timewise that Lizzie could emerge perfect after a murder. She wasn't nude - getting into those Victorian togs took a while.

[Curryong]

Hello Phineas, from a fellow newbie. Welcome!

Yes, it is an interesting question isn't it, pristine Lizzie! Several have suggested solutions in the past threads, even conducted experiments, including me! There have been several suggestions about a cover-all, a clear raincoat which Lizzie possessed, Andrew's Prince Albert coat worn backwards, seems to be a bit of a favourite!

Which dress Lizzie actually wore on that Thursday is also a point of contention, as none of the witnesses could remember, when they were questioned in court about it! Lucky, eh!