What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day?

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dalcanton
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What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day?

Post by dalcanton »

I was reading the book by Robert Sullivan called Goodbye Lizzie Borden. On page 34, there’s a quote from Abby Potter, who at the time of the murders was a niece of Abby. She said, “On the morning of August 4, the day of the murders, my mother (Sarah Whitehead), planning to attend the policemen's annual picnic at Rocky Point, was making arrangements for the care of my younger brother and myself. George was to go to (another aunt's house), and I was to spend the day with Aunt Abby at 92 Second Street. At the last moment there was a change in plans, and I was sent with my brother to (my other aunt's) house, which was next door to the home of Marshal Hilliard in another section of Fall River. In the late afternoon while I was helping Aunt Lucy wash windows, Marshal Hilliard returned home, and standing in the yard, informed Aunt Lucy of Aunt Abby's murder. The shock of the news was so great that Aunt Lucy dropped the window on my hand."

If the babysitting plans hadn’t fallen through, then it’s unlikely the murders would’ve taken place that day. If Lizzie were the culprit, I wonder if she knew about Abby’s babysitting plans (or of them subsequently being canceled). It seems as if the plans were nixed at the last minute. How did Abby get word of this? Was this the note that Lizzie alluded to? Did Lizzie, seeing her chance, kill Abby by happenstance? Seeing the opportunity, she took it?

If the babysitting chore had taken place that day as originally planned, how would that have altered Lizzie’s plans? Kill them the next day? How different would the next day’s scenario have been for her to have gone through with it? Bridget wouldn’t have been outside washing windows, the family members might be feeling better (no more vomiting) & perhaps Uncle John would’ve gone on his merry way, sans suitcase. I wonder if the mutton would’ve made once last appearance. :shock:
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Curryong »

If the mutton had made one last appearance the next day Lizzie wouldn't have needed to act. The whole household would have gone down with botulism and that would probably have finished her parents off! Incidentally, I often wonder what the household ate later on the day of the murder. I know they wouldn't have felt like eating, and probably wouldn't have had a full set meal, but I do wonder whether Uncle John, at least, fortified himself with some of the potato soup made for lunch.

I certainly don't think that Lizzie would have killed Abby that day, with her little niece due to arrive. I do believe that she had been wanting to kill her stepmother for quite some time and took the opportunity that Thursday morning when there was no-one else around. It may have been precipitated by Uncle John's visit. Lizzie perhaps had thoughts in her head of new wills, property being disposed of in the direction of Abby's family etc.

Of course, there would have been other days, other opportunities, though Lizzie wouldn't have been sure in those circumstances as to whether a new Will had been made, or a property transfer. Uncle John may have been a grub but Andrew trusted and liked him and John was in Fall River to talk business.

I don't think any note came to the door that day. Maybe Mrs Whitehead had heard that her sister had had a bout of 'summer sickness' (gossip gets around) and decided to not bother her with babysitting duties. Maybe the decision to attend the picnic was itself last-minute and Mrs Whitehead deposited her offspring where there would be other children to play with. (I don't know why the children couldn't have gone with their parents to the picnic, unless there was going to be a booze-up, as we say in Australia!)
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Mara »

Wouldn't it be wild if there had been a note, and, as dal canton (hi, dal canton!) suggests, letting Abby know she as off the babysitting hook. This would cast a whole new light on things, wouldn't it? Although if this had really happened, wouldn't i have come out in the trial? Wouldn't Lizzie have persisted in her claim about the note?
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by debbiediablo »

This makes me think seriously about the note. Would Sarah have sent the child to Abby's without prior arrangements? That answer is no since she couldn't be sure Abby would be home. So if no, would Sarah then suddenly take the child elsewhere without notifying Abby not to expect her? I think that answer is no, too. So if no, how did Abby learn the child wasn't coming? By note or messenger are the most logical answers. Either way, did the bearer of news come to the front door or the side door? No matter which door, they seem to not have been noticed by anyone on the street or in surrounding homes. And if by the front door, then how did it get relocked afterward? Was this the note that Lizzie mistook for someone being ill? This creates a plethora of questions....
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Curryong »

It could have been casual, like a few days before, mrs Whitehead might have seen her sister down the street when shopping, and said to her "Wilber" (or whatever her husband's name was) " and I are thinking of going to the picnic on Thursday. If you are home could you look after little Abby?" Abby would have answered "Yes," but no formal arrangements would have been made.

On the day of the picnic Mrs Whitehead waffled about whether she and Wilber would go because of the heat. They decide to go at the last minute and chose to park the children where it was convenient at the time. I wonder whether, on days when Abby was looking after little Abby, Lizzie stopped skulking in her room and actually came down and spoke to the little girl?

Just checked and his name was George, not Wilber!
Last edited by Curryong on Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by debbiediablo »

I agree but cannot believe Sarah would not have notified Abby that her niece was going elsewhere. The arrangements could've been made days or longer prior to the picnic. But the decision to take the child to Aunt Lucy's had to be relatively last minute...so how did Abby find out. For all the people who seem to have seen who came and went from the house that morning, who or how did the message get to Abby that Little Abby was going to Aunt Lucy's. Which leads (if this is information from Little Abby is correct)...this leads to the consideration of whether someone else, the murderer, could've made it into the house without being observed if a messenger came to the door unnoticed.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Aamartin »

Sarah would surely have come forward and stated she had sent a note to Abby
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by PossumPie »

Aamartin wrote:Sarah would surely have come forward and stated she had sent a note to Abby
Nice to see you back AAmartin...you are correct. After the murders, that "near arrangement" would have been front page news.
Funny thing after disasters, you hear hundreds of people who were going to be in the Word Trade Center on 9/11 but changed their minds at the last minute, thousands who said they were getting tickets on the Titanic but something came up and they didn't. It is fashionable to "almost be part of history" even if it is a horrible chapter. I believe the mother told the niece after the murders, "I could have just as easily had sent you to stay with Aunt Abby that day" It's easy to say that after-the-fact of the murders...And the niece forever 'remembered' it as it almost happened.
Besides, there was nothing special about that day, we could just as easily be reading that it happened August 15th.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by debbiediablo »

Elsewhere online it states that Little Abbie, spelled with "ie" as on the engraving, didn't go to Aunt Abby's because Aunt Abby was sick that day which we know to be fact. It's termed as "making arrangements" which most likely means that sending one of the kids to Aunt Abby was given consideration but not actually planned for.

However, if Sarah knew Abby was sick that Wednesday then there would have been communication between the households, quite possibly that morning. What if Abby sent a note to Sarah saying she was ill, and Lizzie either misunderstood or (as many pathological liars do) took a piece of truth and twisted to her own use saying Abby was the recipient of the note about a sick friend. If this happened, then it furthers lends weight to the idea that Abby's murder may have not been planned...something happened between them and Lizzie killed her. And Lizzie then used the first excuse for Abby's absence that popped into her head.

The article also says that Emma and Lizzie inherited Sarah's house which would be correct unless Abby had a will specifying otherwise. They were persuaded to sell it to Sarah for a small sum in order to not look unseemly. The story of Lizzie killing Abby's tabby cat is mentioned as oral history within the Abby's family. And it is Emma who is attributed with the remark regarding deeding of the Whitehead property to Abby, "What you do for her family, you should do for your own flesh and blood."
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Curryong »

I think you may be correct debbie, as regards the informal arrangement, and note. However, the note may have been sent to Sarah the day before, on the Wednesday, the day that both Andrew and Abby were feeling absolutely wretched after their overnight vomiting. Abby may have said in her note "I may be alright tomorrow but might not" and so the arrangement might be off.

What set me thinking though, is that in Victorian days in Britain there were several posts a day. I don't know whether that was the case in Massachusetts but what if Abby had posted a note to her sister or vice versa? People used the post and telegrams like we use e-mails and phones. If you posted something in the morning it would get there by midday, and you would get an answer by late afternoon if it was a local address.

I do think that Lizzie may have used any note sent or received, for her own purposes. We know that Abby was scared about the bread and milk, and that gets borrowed and put in Lizzie's narrative to Alice, translated into people are trying to poison our family. Why not 'borrow' something else that suited her.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Aamartin »

PossumPie wrote:
Aamartin wrote:Sarah would surely have come forward and stated she had sent a note to Abby
Nice to see you back AAmartin...you are correct. After the murders, that "near arrangement" would have been front page news.
Funny thing after disasters, you hear hundreds of people who were going to be in the Word Trade Center on 9/11 but changed their minds at the last minute, thousands who said they were getting tickets on the Titanic but something came up and they didn't. It is fashionable to "almost be part of history" even if it is a horrible chapter. I believe the mother told the niece after the murders, "I could have just as easily had sent you to stay with Aunt Abby that day" It's easy to say that after-the-fact of the murders...And the niece forever 'remembered' it as it almost happened.
Besides, there was nothing special about that day, we could just as easily be reading that it happened August 15th.
I agree, if any note had been exchanged between Abby and Sarah, even in the days up to the murders, I think it would have become part of a witness statement, or testimony, etc. Factual information of some kind.... And thanks! I am happy to be back as well. My work suffered a devastating fire, and we are all off for the foreseeable future. I work for a fabulous company, Hillshire Brands and they are PAYING all affected employees FULL pay and benefits until they are rebuilt, even if it takes 6 months.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Curryong »

Yes, Aamartin, please keep posting. I've just been into the witness statements and very interesting (and sometimes quaint) they are! Mrs George Whitehead (Sarah), doesn't seem to have been questioned much about anything, not even the relationships in the Borden household. Nor did she furnish very much on her own account as far as the witness statements are concerned..

The Durfees and Grays seem to have not had, understandably, any sort of pleasant feelings about Lizzie. I think it was they who kept the bizarre story of Lizzie chopping a tabby cat's head off because it annoyed her, in their family history. Abbie Whitehead Potter told the author Robert Sullivan about it.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by PossumPie »

Aamartin wrote:
PossumPie wrote:
Aamartin wrote:Sarah would surely have come forward and stated she had sent a note to Abby
Nice to see you back AAmartin...you are correct. After the murders, that "near arrangement" would have been front page news.
Funny thing after disasters, you hear hundreds of people who were going to be in the Word Trade Center on 9/11 but changed their minds at the last minute, thousands who said they were getting tickets on the Titanic but something came up and they didn't. It is fashionable to "almost be part of history" even if it is a horrible chapter. I believe the mother told the niece after the murders, "I could have just as easily had sent you to stay with Aunt Abby that day" It's easy to say that after-the-fact of the murders...And the niece forever 'remembered' it as it almost happened.
Besides, there was nothing special about that day, we could just as easily be reading that it happened August 15th.
I agree, if any note had been exchanged between Abby and Sarah, even in the days up to the murders, I think it would have become part of a witness statement, or testimony, etc. Factual information of some kind.... And thanks! I am happy to be back as well. My work suffered a devastating fire, and we are all off for the foreseeable future. I work for a fabulous company, Hillshire Brands and they are PAYING all affected employees FULL pay and benefits until they are rebuilt, even if it takes 6 months.
Nice to hear about a company who treats its employee's well. Hear that folks? Pick up some Ball Park Franks, Jimmie Dean Sausage, and Hillshire Farms Lunchmeat products on your next trip to the store! Support a company who supports its employees ! :grin:
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by PossumPie »

I need more facts about this 'almost' babysitting deal. I tend to think, as I said above, that after a news-making disaster people almost brag about how close they were to it. Since nothing was said in deposition, it is just hearsay at this point...although I like the idea that the nature of a 'sickness note' was misunderstood by Lizzie, trouble is Abby's sister would have come forth immediately and cleared it up...they hired investigators to try and find the note writer and couldn't- everyone in Massachusetts was aware that they were looking for a note-writer so why didn't Mrs. Whitehead come forth and clear it up?
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Aamartin »

]Nice to hear about a company who treats its employee's well. Hear that folks? Pick up some Ball Park Franks, Jimmie Dean Sausage, and Hillshire Farms Lunchmeat products on your next trip to the store! Support a company who supports its employees ! :grin:
Yes! It is unbelievable! Some of us, in key positions have to perform certain duties still-- and are getting pay 40 hours PLUS the time going in for essentials, etc.

I have never worked for a better 'corporate' company
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by dalcanton »

PossumPie said, "...why didn't Mrs. Whitehead come forth and clear it up?"

I've thought about that, too, but would Mrs. Whitehead - or anyone else on the "Abby" side - have done anything to place Lizzie in a good light? By not admitting to having sent (or received a note), it would make it seem like Lizzie was lying & trying to cover up the crime.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by dalcanton »

A belated Hi, Mara!
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by PossumPie »

dalcanton wrote:PossumPie said, "...why didn't Mrs. Whitehead come forth and clear it up?"

I've thought about that, too, but would Mrs. Whitehead - or anyone else on the "Abby" side - have done anything to place Lizzie in a good light? By not admitting to having sent (or received a note), it would make it seem like Lizzie was lying & trying to cover up the crime.
But at some point, with everyone discussing the missing note, and legal proceeding underway, I can't imagine an upstanding citizen purposely withholding evidence in a homicide...that is a criminal offense, and I'm sure others would have known about the babysitting idea, so she would be worried that she would be found out as the 'note writer' and asked why she covered it up...no, even if it may have helped Lizzie, I don't think Mrs. Whitehead would withhold evidence.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Aamartin »

PossumPie wrote:
dalcanton wrote:PossumPie said, "...why didn't Mrs. Whitehead come forth and clear it up?"

I've thought about that, too, but would Mrs. Whitehead - or anyone else on the "Abby" side - have done anything to place Lizzie in a good light? By not admitting to having sent (or received a note), it would make it seem like Lizzie was lying & trying to cover up the crime.
But at some point, with everyone discussing the missing note, and legal proceeding underway, I can't imagine an upstanding citizen purposely withholding evidence in a homicide...that is a criminal offense, and I'm sure others would have known about the babysitting idea, so she would be worried that she would be found out as the 'note writer' and asked why she covered it up...no, even if it may have helped Lizzie, I don't think Mrs. Whitehead would withhold evidence.
I believe she would have done all she could to bring the killer to justice, even if she had evidence which pointed away from Lizzie
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Curryong »

Probably young Abbie Whitehead grew up hearing all sorts of stories about the Borden sisters' snobbery and nastiness from her mother and aunt Priscilla Fish. I don't believe the headless tabby story, myself.

According to Warps and Wefts Sarah 'Bertie' Whitehead inherited about $1,000 from Abby and some clothing. Does anyone know if Abby left a will? Sarah became widowed in 1898 and took in lodgers to make a living.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by MysteryReader »

What set me thinking though, is that in Victorian days in Britain there were several posts a day. I don't know whether that was the case in Massachusetts but what if Abby had posted a note to her sister or vice versa? People used the post and telegrams like we use e-mails and phones. If you posted something in the morning it would get there by midday, and you would get an answer by late afternoon if it was a local address.

I know this is a bit farfetched since I have read recently that they didn't have electricity or in-door plumbing, but what about a telephone? With all of Andrew's different businesses, wouldn't it make sense to have one installed (yes, I know he was a cheapskate)? It would explain Abby's babysitting plans being changed- call up her sister and tell her that she was sick.
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by Curryong »

I'm afraid the Bordens didn't have a telephone. Andrew didn't believe in modern conveniences! Of course, he was almost retired by the time he was murdered, so I suppose the time to install one would have been a few years earlier. The Whiteheads (Abby's little sister and her husband) were quite poor so I don't think they had one either. I agree with you it would have been very convenient and Lizzie would have been able to ring the police and friends up after the murder and tell them to come round rather than sending Bridget running around all over the place!
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Re: What if Abby's Babysitting Plans Hadn't Changed that Day

Post by MysteryReader »

Curryong wrote:I'm afraid the Bordens didn't have a telephone. Andrew didn't believe in modern conveniences! Of course, he was almost retired by the time he was murdered, so I suppose the time to install one would have been a few years earlier. The Whiteheads (Abby's little sister and her husband) were quite poor so I don't think they had one either. I agree with you it would have been very convenient and Lizzie would have been able to ring the police and friends up after the murder and tell them to come round rather than sending Bridget running around all over the place!

Thank you, Curryong! I didn't think he would have spent "good money" on one but I wasn't sure as I couldn't find anything to support it.
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