Time estimates

[twinsrwe]

... Anyone who murders their family is a monster...

We should consider the motive of the murder, I think.

I have an impression that some people believe that Lizzie was the killer and meanwhile they have a sympathy for her, therefore they speculate some special motives in order to minimize the horror of the crime. (But you know, Allen, I am not of this opinion.)

What motive, besides extreme physical abuse with no other option for escape and self defense, justifies murdering two people in cold blood? Andrew was a miser so he deserved to die? Abby was a step mother who might get the money so she needed to die? How anyone could feel sympathy for a murderer I don't understand. She didn't live in a fine big house on the hill. But she did not have to lift a finger in her own house. Except to clean her own room. She didn't cook or clean. She was free to come and go as she pleased. She had her basic needs being met. She wasn't homeless. She wasn't one of those poor women in Fall River who was forced to work long hours in a factory to help support their family. Not everyone grows up in a demonstrative loving home where everyone sits down to dinner and talks about their day. And not everyone is showered with money to buy their every want and need. Not everyone gets along with their parents. It's not a motive to kill them. Nobody has the right to take the life of another person just because they want their money, or they don't get along, or they are just tired of putting up with them. If that is the case I have the motive to take out a few people I know at the moment.

Thank you, Allen! I couldn't have said to better.

[Franz]

Whatever, Franz! You absolutely refuse to acknowledge anything that puts a hole in your so called theory. Not only that, you feel the need to add tidbits of information, without posting a source for that information.

It's true that I didn't cite the source for Dr. Bowen's saying, and I apologize for this. But I didn't invent it.

P.S.: In one of your previous posts you said: "The number of blows Abby and Andrew received indicates an act of emotionally connected vengeance; which in turn indicates it was an inside job - a member of the household. " You used the indicative form for the verbs, but I think that what you said is only an explanation, a speculation, not a fact.

[Franz]

What motive, besides extreme physical abuse with no other option for escape and self defense, justifies murdering two people in cold blood? Andrew was a miser so he deserved to die? Abby was a step mother who might get the money so she needed to die? How anyone could feel sympathy for a murderer I don't understand. She didn't live in a fine big house on the hill. But she did not have to lift a finger in her own house. Except to clean her own room. She didn't cook or clean. She was free to come and go as she pleased. She had her basic needs being met. She wasn't homeless. She wasn't one of those poor women in Fall River who was forced to work long hours in a factory to help support their family. Not everyone grows up in a demonstrative loving home where everyone sits down to dinner and talks about their day. And not everyone is showered with money to buy their every want and need. Not everyone gets along with their parents. It's not a motive to kill them. Nobody has the right to take the life of another person just because they want their money, or they don't get along, or they are just tired of putting up with them. If that is the case I have the motive to take out a few people I know at the moment.

Thank you, Allen! I couldn't have said to better.

I repeat, that is not my opinion.

If Lizzie did kill her parents for money (attention, this is not proved), her action would be certainly horrible and monstruous.

[twinsrwe]

What motive, besides extreme physical abuse with no other option for escape and self defense, justifies murdering two people in cold blood? Andrew was a miser so he deserved to die? Abby was a step mother who might get the money so she needed to die? How anyone could feel sympathy for a murderer I don't understand. She didn't live in a fine big house on the hill. But she did not have to lift a finger in her own house. Except to clean her own room. She didn't cook or clean. She was free to come and go as she pleased. She had her basic needs being met. She wasn't homeless. She wasn't one of those poor women in Fall River who was forced to work long hours in a factory to help support their family. Not everyone grows up in a demonstrative loving home where everyone sits down to dinner and talks about their day. And not everyone is showered with money to buy their every want and need. Not everyone gets along with their parents. It's not a motive to kill them. Nobody has the right to take the life of another person just because they want their money, or they don't get along, or they are just tired of putting up with them. If that is the case I have the motive to take out a few people I know at the moment.

Thank you, Allen! I couldn't have said to better.

I repeat, that is not my opinion.

If Lizzie did kill her parents for money (attention, this is not proved), her action would be certainly horrible and monstruous.

No one said it was your opinion, Franz.

[Aamartin]

Well, I am just going to come right out and say it... With NO offense meant towards anyone. I DO respect every persons opinion and do read them with an open mind...

But I do feel that a person's political, religious and social background do form how they feel about Lizzie and the crimes. It's fascinating.

Just like a jury and jury selection.............................

[PossumPie]

Twinsrwe: I respect Franz, he has tremendous intelligence, and his resume reads like a genius's...BUT he reminds me of Creationists I know. They start with a belief...that the world was created only 6,000 years ago. Mountains of evidence come in every day that this is not true, It is 4.54 Billion years old but they interpret and twist evidence to fit their theory. I used to be that person, but as the evidence came it, I had to change beliefs. THAT is the mark of a good scientist, that they formulate a hypothesis, and if it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, or there is no PREDICTIVE evidence for it, you modify your hypothesis. That is my criticism of Franz's theory. It's foundation is built on shifting sand, that of no conceivable motive for Morse. I believe that even if Morse and Lizzie were the only two in the house at the time of the murders, he still wouldn't have been suspected for long b/c there was no motive.

Allen: The funny thing is you and I believe the same thing. Lizzie - in cold blood - killed them. I just despise hearing people diagnose others without knowing them or having the credentials. Think about having a child who is "energetic" and intelligent. The teacher is boring, and your son is not challenged, so he fidgets in class. The teacher, guidance counselor, and principle suggest to you that your child is "ADHD" and needs medication. BULL! They have no legal right to suggest that! They are not licensed or trained to say that, and IN FACT it is illegal for them to even suggest medication without a license. BUT this happens all the time. The most frustrating thing about psyc. In fact the main reason I shifted to Nursing, was that EVERYONE thinks that they are experts in psyc. At a party, if you tell someone you are a Astrophysicist, people say..wow, what is that? BUT when someone asked me what I did, and I said Psyc. they inevitably went into long stories as to how their ex was a bipolar, borderline personality and they begin diagnosing everyone in the room. Everyone thinks that they are an expert. Screw the fact that I had 4 years undergrad, 3 years Post-graduate, and clinical residency, THEY knew more than I did b/c they watched Sally Jessie Rafael, and read a self-help book once. Geezz. Was Lizzie a sociopath? There is not enough evidence. Period. End of discussion. Can you believe that she was? Go for it. In the end, Allen, you and I are of the same belief. I just reserve judgement on her psychological diagnoses. For any child to commit patricide (killing your father) for sure means something is broken in their psyche.
BTW, while the "Night Stalker" may have been a sociopath (again, I didn't counsel him so I can't know for sure) Charles Manson was NOT a sociopath. He seems by all observations to be Schizophrenic, and have a paranoid delusional disorder. His delusions about the race war and the Beatles communicating with him are psychotic.

[PossumPie]

Well, I am just going to come right out and say it... With NO offense meant towards anyone. I DO respect every persons opinion and do read them with an open mind...

But I do feel that a person's political, religious and social background do form how they feel about Lizzie and the crimes. It's fascinating.

Just like a jury and jury selection.............................

Great observation. No matter how we try to be objective, we see the world through the filter's of our beliefs. I started a thread a while back about that, and found out That I was wrong in thinking that the "conservative" members here believed her to be guilty, and the "Liberal" members believed in her innocence. You for one are an exception, as are many others. I do think that when presented with vague evidence, we all use our experiences to interpret it. If someone was molested as a child, they may feel strongly that Lizzie may have been also...there is no strong evidence to that effect, but some circumstantial things. If we have been abused emotionally in our past by someone close, we may believe Mr. Borden was a cold emotionally abusive father. I grew up in a family where money was a focus. Perhaps that is why I think it was all about her inheritance. As long as we see what colors our interpretation, we can be open to others points of view.

[Aamartin]

Well, I am just going to come right out and say it... With NO offense meant towards anyone. I DO respect every persons opinion and do read them with an open mind...

But I do feel that a person's political, religious and social background do form how they feel about Lizzie and the crimes. It's fascinating.

Just like a jury and jury selection.............................

Great observation. No matter how we try to be objective, we see the world through the filter's of our beliefs. I started a thread a while back about that, and found out That I was wrong in thinking that the "conservative" members here believed her to be guilty, and the "Liberal" members believed in her innocence. You for one are an exception, as are many others. I do think that when presented with vague evidence, we all use our experiences to interpret it. If someone was molested as a child, they may feel strongly that Lizzie may have been also...there is no strong evidence to that effect, but some circumstantial things. If we have been abused emotionally in our past by someone close, we may believe Mr. Borden was a cold emotionally abusive father. I grew up in a family where money was a focus. Perhaps that is why I think it was all about her inheritance. As long as we see what colors our interpretation, we can be open to others points of view.

I so desperately wanted her to be innocent for so many years it clouded my entire judgement of the case, the testimony, the evidence, etc. It took me a long time to admit to myself she is more than likely guilty.....

That said, I think about that situation in Texas. A man killed another who was molesting a 5 year old. And here I am, anti death penalty and I would like to take him out to dinner and agree that no charges should have been filed against him. Such contrasts. Each case is different-- each situation different.

While I do believe psychological profiling does aid in the capture of criminals, I do NOT necessarily agree that a consensus of a Lizzie profile could be accurate without knowing her true sexuality. I think a lesbian woman would profile differently from a straight one. I do suspect Lizzie was indeed, gay. I have no evidence-- but it's one of those instinctual things. Maybe my gaydar transcends the test of time!

I was raised in what best can be described as a progressive household. Both of my parents tended to take on causes and stand by their beliefs. I was seldom spanked-- but remember clearly being spanked by my father when I was not even is school, so less than 5 for using the 'N' word. He would outright fire employees who showed even a slight tendency towards prejudice or racism. In the 70's when an African American family moved into one of his rental properties the neighbors freaked. One man especially. In what I can say is the single really 'mean' thing my dad ever did was buy that man's property out from under him at a tax sale and evict him.

When my mother was a Brownie Leader she wanted to teach her troop the proper way to dispose of (burn) a flag-- and calamity ensued. She got her way and they did learn. She was on the library board and when a man who was known for being very conservative wanted the Judy Blume books banned-- she went after him with a vengeance.

Mom came from money, my father was entirely self made. Very good people.

So I was raised to give 54576435th chances and try to be empathetic. To be kind and to realize that when one has many blessings, he also has many responsibilities associated with that....

It affects how I look at everything!

[Allen]

Twinsrwe: I respect Franz, he has tremendous intelligence, and his resume reads like a genius's...BUT he reminds me of Creationists I know. They start with a belief...that the world was created only 6,000 years ago. Mountains of evidence come in every day that this is not true, It is 4.54 Billion years old but they interpret and twist evidence to fit their theory. I used to be that person, but as the evidence came it, I had to change beliefs. THAT is the mark of a good scientist, that they formulate a hypothesis, and if it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, or there is no PREDICTIVE evidence for it, you modify your hypothesis. That is my criticism of Franz's theory. It's foundation is built on shifting sand, that of no conceivable motive for Morse. I believe that even if Morse and Lizzie were the only two in the house at the time of the murders, he still wouldn't have been suspected for long b/c there was no motive.

Allen: The funny thing is you and I believe the same thing. Lizzie - in cold blood - killed them. I just despise hearing people diagnose others without knowing them or having the credentials. Think about having a child who is "energetic" and intelligent. The teacher is boring, and your son is not challenged, so he fidgets in class. The teacher, guidance counselor, and principle suggest to you that your child is "ADHD" and needs medication. BULL! They have no legal right to suggest that! They are not licensed or trained to say that, and IN FACT it is illegal for them to even suggest medication without a license. BUT this happens all the time. The most frustrating thing about psyc. In fact the main reason I shifted to Nursing, was that EVERYONE thinks that they are experts in psyc. At a party, if you tell someone you are a Astrophysicist, people say..wow, what is that? BUT when someone asked me what I did, and I said Psyc. they inevitably went into long stories as to how their ex was a bipolar, borderline personality and they begin diagnosing everyone in the room. Everyone thinks that they are an expert. Screw the fact that I had 4 years undergrad, 3 years Post-graduate, and clinical residency, THEY knew more than I did b/c they watched Sally Jessie Rafael, and read a self-help book once. Geezz. Was Lizzie a sociopath? There is not enough evidence. Period. End of discussion. Can you believe that she was? Go for it. In the end, Allen, you and I are of the same belief. I just reserve judgement on her psychological diagnoses. For any child to commit patricide (killing your father) for sure means something is broken in their psyche.
BTW, while the "Night Stalker" may have been a sociopath (again, I didn't counsel him so I can't know for sure) Charles Manson was NOT a sociopath. He seems by all observations to be Schizophrenic, and have a paranoid delusional disorder. His delusions about the race war and the Beatles communicating with him are psychotic.

The idea that you chose that scenario actually made me chuckle. Because that's exactly what happened to my daughter in kindergarden. I took her to have her evaluated at medical facility and she DOES have ADHD. We've known it since she was in kindergarden and she is now 17 years old. And it was her teacher who pointed out the behaviors. I didn't say either one of them was a sociopath. I said Richard Ramirez was a psychopath. I didn't say Charlie was anything at all. But that he was a murderer. And unfortunately without knowing my background you don't know if I know the signs as well as you do or not. I have mental illness in my family. Several generations of members with depression/bipolar. There is a aunt in my family, my grandmothers sister, who was diagnosed with multiple personalities. This stems from childhood sexual abuse. Unfortunately there have been two such people in my family.My grandmothers step father, and my own grandfather. I know about sexual abuse. My other aunt, my mother's sister, her boyfriend was diagnosed with sociopathic tendencies. First by his father. Who is a psychiatrist. He has never murdered anyone. Not all sociopaths end up murdering people. Some lead normal lives. But he does have strange affects. Example - someone tells a joke and he looks around for a minute at everyone else and then laughs. It's this way anytime he has to show some sort of emotional response. It's as if he's trying to gage what everyone else is feeling before he shows any emotion. So that he's staying in the norm. He is working at it almost.

If we are talking about backgrounds I'm not ashamed to talk about mine. I know personal tragedy. I know TONS of it. I know weak human behavior. Psychological and mental problems. I was raised by an alcoholic mother who divorced my father when I was two years old. They have never spoken again. I started being sexually molested at age four by my grandfather. When it came out years later we were molested, and I say we, my grandmother and many others blamed us. My cousin was kicked out of her own house for pressing charges. She was harassed so much she dropped the charges. She was 12. When Mom married my step father she had three more children. Still an alcoholic. She divorced him when I was nine. She had a boyfriend who beat her within an inch of her life about three nights a week. I was left at the home of different relatives for weeks at a time sometimes as she went out on benders. I'd say I want to come home she'd say that's too bad. She sent my brothers and sisters to live with my step father because she couldn't deal with them while they were still very young. I hardly ever saw them growing up. I became sick of this routine at around age 13 and asked to move in with my maternal grandparents. They raised me until I was eighteen. I had a child at age sixteen. By eighteen I had my own apartment and was raising a child. My aunts boyfriend beat me severely at her house one night because I fought back when he tried to rape me. They talked me out of pressing charges and felt more sorry for him than they did me. He ended up serving time in prison for sexual assault. I got married at 21. Had my daughter a year later. My husband was diagnosed with cancer 2 years later. He beat the cancer but always a chance it will come back. My daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. My husband was in a terrible car accident where he was thrown from the car during the accident. He looked so bad most of the doctors said he looked like he'd been on a motorcycle and not in car. His parents refused to come to the hospital due to the fact they didn't know where it was and might get lost. And some things were said by my father in law during this time I've never forgiven him for. He pretty much said he hoped my husband died. I have not set foot in their house since. My kids have had several bad accidents. My mother is bipolar and is on meds. She had a liver transplant and almost died because of her drinking. And she's still drinking. Mom did get a nursing degree and practiced nursing. My aunt Janet, mom's sister, is a nurse. My sister is a nurse. My aunt Dorothy, grandma's sister, is the head nurse of the neo natal unit at Pittsburg Children's Hospital. I have lawyers in my family as well. And policemen. Several members of my family suffer from alcoholism and problems with depression. I myself have been diagnosed with manic depression. My daughter is currently seeing a professional and taking meds, prozac, because I noticed the signs in her and took her to be evaluated. She's also on a mood stabilizer but I don't remember the name right off. She is 17 almost 18 but I'd say she has the maturity level of a 14 year old. She has many problems besides the ADHD. Which is a challenge because she also had a child very young. I have a one year old grandson. So how does all of this have anything to do with my thoughts on Lizzie?

[Allen]

Well, I am just going to come right out and say it... With NO offense meant towards anyone. I DO respect every persons opinion and do read them with an open mind...

But I do feel that a person's political, religious and social background do form how they feel about Lizzie and the crimes. It's fascinating.

Just like a jury and jury selection.............................

Aamartin I'm curious to know how you figure that into the forum without knowing the background of all of the members.

[Aamartin]

Because in my opinion it is plain is the nose on anyone's face!

I mean who can deny that our backgrounds, experiences and our ideas shape how we think?

[Allen]

I think it does to a certain extent shape us. But I don't think it's a hard and fast rule. I was sexually abused. Yet I choose to believe Lizzie was probably not even though people say the signs are there. And I think it would be a shame for Andrew to receive that kind of label if he truly is innocent of molesting her.

[twinsrwe]

Aamartin and PossumPie: I also respect Franz, as well as his and everyone else’s opinions; although I may not agree with them. The comment I made in my previous post was NOT meant as a slam to Franz. Both of you took my comment in a negative manner, and I did not intend it to be that way at all.

Franz: I apologize, if you also took my comment in a negative manner.

[Franz]

Twinsrwe, don't worry. I didn't take your previous comments (or those of others) in a negative manner. Since I have been in the forum, only two or three posts towards to me have been judged by myself absolutely inacceptable (I think everyone knows which posts they were). And even in those very few cases, I judged them inacceptable not for their content, but for the manner with which their authors expressed them.

I hope everyone could enjoy this forum. It's a fascinating place.

[Aamartin]

Aamartin and PossumPie: I also respect Franz, as well as his and everyone else’s opinions; although I may not agree with them. The comment I made in my previous post was NOT meant as a slam to Franz. Both of you took my comment in a negative manner, and I did not intend it to be that way at all.

Franz: I apologize, if you also took my comment in a negative manner.

Twins, I have never found your posts to be offensive in any way. Nor do I think you have insulted anyone!

I apologize if anything I posted suggested otherwise.

[Allen]

twinsrwe I have always enjoyed your posts. I agree with a lot that you have to say. I have never thought you've said anything offensive.

[twinsrwe]

Franz and Aamartin: I want to thank both of you for responding to my posts.

It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one. I happened to have taken Aamartin’s post, which he made right after my post of ‘No one said it was your opinion, Franz.’, to mean that he was directing his comment at me; even though he had stated in his post that there was no offense meant towards anyone. Then to top it off, PossumPie posted a direct post to me, as well as Allen, which I took as him criticizing me for showing no respect for Franz’s opinion. Do you see how things can be misinterpreted?

[twinsrwe]

twinsrwe I have always enjoyed your posts. I agree with a lot that you have to say. I have never thought you've said anything offensive.

Thanks, Allen. I have always enjoyed reading your posts, as well. You give me so many insightful ways of looking at the Borden case, which I happen to agree with. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your posts.

[PossumPie]

No twinsrwe, I was agreeing with you. As I said I hold Alot of respect for Franz, just disagree with his logic. For what it's worth , I love the discussions by everyone here and respect you all. I come off as a know it all sometimes.

[twinsrwe]

Thank you for responding to my post, PossumPie. I see now, that I had indeed misinterpreted your post. As I stated in my previous post, 'It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one.'

[PossumPie]

Thank you for responding to my post, PossumPie. I see now, that I had indeed misinterpreted your post. As I stated in my previous post, 'It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one.'

Indeed. I belong to a forum discussing perfume and cologne. You wouldn't think that could cause a fight, but misunderstandings and ugly words cause alot of hurt feelings and fights there. It is in part b/c we can't read each other's intent...I guess that is what emoticons are for.

[twinsrwe]

Thank you for responding to my post, PossumPie. I see now, that I had indeed misinterpreted your post. As I stated in my previous post, 'It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one.'

Indeed. I belong to a forum discussing perfume and cologne. You wouldn't think that could cause a fight, but misunderstandings and ugly words cause alot of hurt feelings and fights there. It is in part b/c we can't read each other's intent...I guess that is what emoticons are for.

I believe you are correct! It's sad but true!

[Franz]

Thank you for responding to my post, PossumPie. I see now, that I had indeed misinterpreted your post. As I stated in my previous post, 'It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one.'

Indeed. I belong to a forum discussing perfume and cologne. You wouldn't think that could cause a fight, but misunderstandings and ugly words cause alot of hurt feelings and fights there. It is in part b/c we can't read each other's intent...I guess that is what emoticons are for.

There are fights in a forum about...perfum? Just amazing, I can't imagine it.

[PossumPie]

Thank you for responding to my post, PossumPie. I see now, that I had indeed misinterpreted your post. As I stated in my previous post, 'It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one.'

Indeed. I belong to a forum discussing perfume and cologne. You wouldn't think that could cause a fight, but misunderstandings and ugly words cause alot of hurt feelings and fights there. It is in part b/c we can't read each other's intent...I guess that is what emoticons are for.

There are fights in a forum about...perfum? Just amazing, I can't imagine it.

Yep, some nasty fights. There is a company-Creed- that has many fans on the forum. If someone criticizes one of their fragrances, several people get angry, and defensive. This leads to arguments. The internet has made us anonymous. Franz, I went to your website, saw your picture with your adorable dog, and you became "human" to me, not just an Avitar. There is a fine line between intelligent debate and angry name-calling and hurt feelings. I think we do a very good job of being civil on this forum, despite differences of opinion.

[Aamartin]

Franz and Aamartin: I want to thank both of you for responding to my posts.

It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one. I happened to have taken Aamartin’s post, which he made right after my post of ‘No one said it was your opinion, Franz.’, to mean that he was directing his comment at me; even though he had stated in his post that there was no offense meant towards anyone. Then to top it off, PossumPie posted a direct post to me, as well as Allen, which I took as him criticizing me for showing no respect for Franz’s opinion. Do you see how things can be misinterpreted?

The truth is, I LIKE your posts and tend to agree with you most of them time!!!! Even the ones you post while wearing a cheese hat

[Aamartin]

Thank you for responding to my post, PossumPie. I see now, that I had indeed misinterpreted your post. As I stated in my previous post, 'It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one.'

Indeed. I belong to a forum discussing perfume and cologne. You wouldn't think that could cause a fight, but misunderstandings and ugly words cause alot of hurt feelings and fights there. It is in part b/c we can't read each other's intent...I guess that is what emoticons are for.

When I think of perfume, I can't help but remember the Video on Nip Tuck where 'Hot Coco' sang about it....

[PossumPie]

Back on topic....Helen Leighton, Lizzie's closest friend, who knew her best after the trail and subsequent years says people didn't know Lizzie well, that she was very generous, helping several people go to college, buying books so people who couldn't afford them could read, and said that Lizzie was a quiet, generous woman who took no credit for her charities. This takes some of the air out of the idea that there was no good in her whatsoever. I don't believe you could argue that it was for show, much didn't come to light until after she was dead. Sure, she donated money that she got by killing her parents, but why not keep it all?

[Aamartin]

Back on topic....Helen Leighton, Lizzie's closest friend, who knew her best after the trail and subsequent years says people didn't know Lizzie well, that she was very generous, helping several people go to college, buying books so people who couldn't afford them could read, and said that Lizzie was a quiet, generous woman who took no credit for her charities. This takes some of the air out of the idea that there was no good in her whatsoever. I don't believe you could argue that it was for show, much didn't come to light until after she was dead. Sure, she donated money that she got by killing her parents, but why not keep it all?

It is also worth mentioning that Stefani, after working on Parallel Lives wasn't so sure that Lizzie did it.... This was on the interview they did online. I was very struck by that. Stefani is one of the foremost experts on Lizzie.

[Allen]

For me, if she did commit the murders, anything she did afterward that could be construed as "good" works are cancelled out. Nothing trumps murder.

[twinsrwe]

Franz and Aamartin: I want to thank both of you for responding to my posts.

It is unfortunate that we can not see a poster’s face, or hear the tone of their voice, when it comes to interpreting the contents of a particular post, on a forum such as this one. I happened to have taken Aamartin’s post, which he made right after my post of ‘No one said it was your opinion, Franz.’, to mean that he was directing his comment at me; even though he had stated in his post that there was no offense meant towards anyone. Then to top it off, PossumPie posted a direct post to me, as well as Allen, which I took as him criticizing me for showing no respect for Franz’s opinion. Do you see how things can be misinterpreted?

The truth is, I LIKE your posts and tend to agree with you most of them time!!!! Even the ones you post while wearing a cheese hat

Thank you, Aamartin! Yes, you have no idea how helpful those cheese hats can be!!!

[Curryong]

I have never heard that Dr Bowen said that either, of course it may have appeared in one of the innumerable books on the murders, in which case I hope that Franz remembers where he read it and enlightens us. Having said that, though, I do think it's the sort of thing a kindly family doctor would say to a surviving family member, after viewing two slaughtered bodies. He certainly wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Lizzie was somehow involved.

I have to say, that this is one of the most interesting threads I have ever read in this Forum. It goes to the heart of the Lizzie conundrum.

[twinsrwe]

… I remember that Dr. Bowen, when Lizzie told him that she was out of the house when her father was being killed (no matter if this was true or not), said somethng like: fortunately you were not in the house, if you were, you would have been killed as well. You see, Dr. Bowen, seeing the horrible crime scene, instinctly thought that the killer was an intruder (and a man), and I think he was not the unique people to think so at that moment. Morse succeeded by asking his conspirator to overkill. Lizzie was suspected for the things that Morse could not control at all.

I have never heard that Dr. Bowen told Lizzie this either, not that I recall anyway. However, I agree with Curryong, it does sound like something that a kindly family doctor would say to a surviving family member, after viewing two slaughtered bodies.

Franz, can you provide us with a source for Dr. Bowen saying this to Lizzie?

[Franz]

… I remember that Dr. Bowen, when Lizzie told him that she was out of the house when her father was being killed (no matter if this was true or not), said somethng like: fortunately you were not in the house, if you were, you would have been killed as well. You see, Dr. Bowen, seeing the horrible crime scene, instinctly thought that the killer was an intruder (and a man), and I think he was not the unique people to think so at that moment. Morse succeeded by asking his conspirator to overkill. Lizzie was suspected for the things that Morse could not control at all.

I have never heard that Dr. Bowen told Lizzie this either, not that I recall anyway. However, I agree with Curryong, it does sound like something that a kindly family doctor would say to a surviving family member, after viewing two slaughtered bodies.

Franz, can you provide us with a source for Dr. Bowen saying this to Lizzie?

In a couple of monthes I will have time to re-read all the materials I have, and then I will tell you.

My point here, regardless what Dr. Bowen said to Lizzie, is my hypothesis to explain the so called "overkilling": the killer, if an intruder, might have added unnecessarily many other blows in order to fabricate a most horrible murder scene, so that no one would suspect the two women in the house as the killer. The real murder wanted to kill Abby and Andrew, but not Lizzie and Bridget, and meanwhile, he wanted to avoid Lizzie (and Bridget) from being accused for the crime.

[twinsrwe]

… In a couple of monthes I will have time to re-read all the materials I have, and then I will tell you. …

That would be greatly appreciated, Franz