Lizzie's biggest lie --- Part 1

[Franz]

Lizzie told a number of lies. In my opinion, the biggest one is this: I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in.

This lie has been generally considered as one of the most “convincing” circumstantial evidence against Lizzie. Whoever more convinced for her innocence must face it directly.

I am afraid I couldn’t post a more elaborated thread on this topic before a couple of months, so here I make only some consideration about Mrs. Churchill’s testimony as the part 1 of the discussion.

In her witness statement (August 6, p. 10), Mrs. Churchill testified: “where is your mother? She said, I dont know.” Nothing else. But on August 8, Mrs. Churchill gave a more detailed version (p. 11):

Where is your mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in. Will I go and get one or find someone who will? Yes. I did so…

According to this testimony, Lizzie might have said “I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in” for the first time when she was alone with Mrs. Churchill, at the side door of the house, while Bridget was being sent to search Alice. But this testimony is somehow odd for me.

Lizzie didn’t mention Mrs. Borden for first. She mentioned her because Mrs. Churchill asked her about her stepmother. What did this mean? I think this meant that Mrs. Churchill worried about Mrs. Borden’s safety, therefore she asked Lizzie: “Where is your mother?” Then what happened? At some point Lizzie --- according to Mrs. Churchill’s testimony--- might have said: “I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in.” If I were Mrs. Churchill and I were worrying about the safety of Mrs. Borden, when hearing something like this: “I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in”, what should be my (immediate) reaction? I think I would say, interrupting Lizzie: “Oh my God, really? Lizzie! Are you sure that you heard her come in? If so, we must find her, she could be in danger. Oh we are only two women, we must have some men to help us. Do you want me to search some men to help us to find Mrs. Borden?” But, very surprisingly for me, this didn’t happen. What actually happened was that Mrs. Churchill didn’t interrupt Lizzie and Lizzie continued to say that father had many enemies, Dr. Bowen was not at home, etc., etc. And, it seemed that Mrs. Churchill forgot immediately Lizzie’s “I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in”, the reaction of Mrs. Churchill makes me think that it seemed that she didn’t hear this phrase at all. Instead, she proposed to Lizzie to go to find another doctor for Lizzie’s already dead father, and she didn’t care no more about the safety of Mrs. Borden who could be somewhere in the house, if Lizzie did say that phrase…

In a word, Mrs. Churchill’s reaction --- no, her non-reaction, the total lack of any reaction of her part --- makes me doubt: her reaction, in my opinion, is totally incoherent with Lizzie’s alleged, and astonishing, statement : “I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in.” We are sure that Lizzie made the same statement (a lie) before Alice, Bridget, and Mrs. Churchill herself much later (while Dr. Bowen went to the post office). I wonder: is it possible that Mrs. Churchill made a confusion and anticipated wrongly what she heard from Lizzie (together with Alice and Bridget) to an early moment, when she was alone with Lizzie at the side door of the house?

Any thoughts?

P.S.: Maybe it’s worth noticing that in the inquest testimony (p. 128), Mrs Churchill failed to recall that Lizzie had said, in that very first moment, that “I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in”.

[PossumPie]

We must remember the moments after the discovery of the body of Mr. Borden were trauma-inducing. To everyone involved, the discovery of a body causes our minds to work in a non-logical manner. I don't put too much stock in anything anyone says immediately after such a trauma, I have worked with school shooting victims who have asked very strange questions like "I hope my science project didn't break" and other bizarre things. Their minds are desperately trying to put a normalcy on an abnormal situation. Mrs. Churchill, upon hearing that Abby may be home also, and realizing that in all of the yelling and commotion Abby didn't come downstairs, may suspect that she is also hacked to death. Perhaps her mind just isn't ready to deal with that yet, and changes the subject.
Though I think Lizzie is guilty, I don't feel that all of the insistence that someone "go upstairs and find Mrs. Borden" is necessarily proof that Lizzie knew that she was in the house. IF Lizzie were innocent, she certainly would want to know the whereabouts of Mrs. Borden.

[Franz]

Mrs. Churchill was not a parent of Mr. Borden and she didn't see his horrible body. I don't think her trauma could be so overwelming: in fact she immediately thought about Mrs. Borden. When she asked Lizzie "where is your mother?" and -- if her testimony was exact --- when she was given an answer "I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in", Mrs. Churchill didn't react at all to this answer. It is very strange for me.

[Curryong]

I think it must be very difficult, in the immediate aftermath of a murder, to remember what was said and not said whether the person has seen the slaughtered corpse or not. Mrs Churchill's mind was no doubt running at 150 miles a minute and I have no doubt that she was probably thinking "We must get a doctor. Lizzie must be attended to. Dr Bowen is out on his rounds. I must get someone else!" That would have been uppermost in her mind.

All this while listening with half an ear to what Lizzie was saying. She would have asked, of course, where the dead man's wife was, but you may very well be correct, Franz, in thinking that Mrs Churchill could have transposed Lizzie's statement about Abby going out in response to receiving a note to a later conversation when Alice Russell etc was present.

When Mrs Churchill ran across the road to the stables to get her servant Thomas to find a doctor, several people heard her calling out that something dreadful had happened at the Bordens. She was probably very flustered. It was odd of her to leave Lizzie alone with a possible murderer in the house, but then we live in an age in which almost every person has a mobile and can connect with doctors and emergency services immediately.

[Franz]

We must remember the moments after the discovery of the body of Mr. Borden were trauma-inducing. To everyone involved, the discovery of a body causes our minds to work in a non-logical manner...

Very well said, PossumPie. I think this observation is valid, menawhile, I think it should be valid for everyone, so, for Lizzie as well. "To everyone involved, the discovery of a body causes our minds to work in a non-logical manner." Lizzie was involved, and Lizzie was the very person to discover Andrew's horrible body, and Lizzie, before Emma's arrival, was the unique parent of the victim... So Lizzie should have had more "rights" to say something or do something "in a non-logical manner". Ok. Lizzie didn't suspect Bridget immediately? what is the problem? If this could seem strange (I don't think so), Lizzie had her right to react in this non-logical manner; Lizzie didn't escape? what is the problem? If this could seem strange (I don't think so), Lizzie had her right to react in this non-logical manner; Lizzie didn't think immediately to contact the police? what is the problem? If this could seem strange (I don't think so), Lizzie had her right to react in this non-logical manner; Lizzie thought about the funeral affairs in that very morning? What is the problem, if this could seem strange (I don't think so), Lizzie had her right to react in this non-logical manner...because, according to what you said, PossumPie, Lizzie, assuming that she was innocent, should have been exactly the most shocked person!

Why, for many people, when they consider somehow strange behavors of other people involved in the case, the reason is that they were under shock, etc., etc. But meanwhile, when they consider some Lizzie's somehow strange behavors, the reason is simply that she was guilty? It's unfair for Lizzie.

[Curryong]

Maybe because, Franz, Lizzie had motive, method and bags of opportunity to commit murder and none of the other people, Mrs Churchill, Alice Russell, Dr Bowen, John Morse etc did. That's why, if they became slightly muddled, it is not so significant as a woman (Lizzie) who had a great deal to lose by making statements that weren't 'logical' and thought out, and became a prime suspect because of it.

[Franz]

Curryong, I can agree with you. But I think that when we consider some Lizzie's reactions immediately after the discovery of her father's body, we couldn't have in mind the idea that Lizzie had motive, method and opportunity, and therefore, Lizzie was probably guilty. We must consider her reactions without any prejudice and we must assume that she was innocent. And then, we will see if we could find an innocent explanation for her reactions. I re-quote here the phrase of PossumPie: "To everyone involved, the discovery of a body causes our minds to work in a non-logical manner.". I think this could be exactly the case of Lizzie.

[Curryong]

I do think, Franz, that when the police were collating evidence and comparing notes, then some of Lizzie's statements (about where she was at various times for instance) became seen as obvious lies.
(She told different stories about the barn, hearing noises when she came back to the house etc to different people, for example.) However muddled or shocked you are, you could surely remember if you'd heard a scraping noise or not.

I think the police authorities may well have given her the benefit of the doubt about her statements, that she was shocked etc, if it were not also for the fact that she was alone with Abby, near both victims at the time of their deaths, AND had clear motive, means and opportunity. The police didn't immediately draw that conclusion (that she was guilty). Of course they didn't. It was a question of collating everything together.

[irina]

Possibly what I add here should be a new thread but until I have been around for awhile I like to work from what others have started.

Probably somewhere someone has analyzed exactly what Lizzie had to say though I have never seen it. It has always been said that she lied, so how much did she lie? Recently writers say she was so influenced by morphine that she might have been hallucinating. I went through her inquest testimony and the various witness statements. Of course I have lost that notebook at the moment but I have some of the notes and remember what I found.

What I found is that she is clear on certain things and confused on others. She is amazingly clear on most of the barn story and some of it can be corroborated. For instance she stated looking in two specific places for lead and the police found lead in both places in boxes and whatnot similar to what she described. Granted the iron to fix a screen/lead for fishing sinkers embellishments don't appear truthful or logical but put that aside for a moment.

Is it possible that going to the barn was the last normal activity in her life before she saw her father's body? What about PTSD? (I will absolutely defer to your knowledge on this PossumPie. I have a basic understanding but no practical experience working with it.) In saying this is is not necessary to say this proves she was in the barn when she said she was and is therefore innocent. She could have gone to the barn much earlier and found or obtained a hatchet previously hidden or stored, etc. She could have been in the barn on a different day and her mind latched on a previous visit there to fill in gaps to cover guilt. Whatever the answer, she is fairly clear about time in the barn.

I listed subjects she was very uncertain about. Those are in the notebook I can't find. From memory they are, activities and times from the time she got up until she called Bridget, family relationships even prior to that time and activities in the days preceding Thursday. Under the first I had a lot of smaller items. Ironing was one. When did she start, etc. Where was she physically from 9:00am on? Breakfast...not just that morning but did she ever eat breakfast?

She is somewhat clear about her interaction with Abby that morning but the prosecution really worked her over on that one. She was specific about Abby wanting the guest room door left closed after it was finished because company was coming on Monday. She recalled magazines by title, that she had been reading while waiting for the flats to heat.

Someone who knew Lizzie at that time reportedly said it would be more understandable that she could commit murder than that she could lie about it afterward. Apparently she had a reputation for being truthful among her associates. If she is lying at any point she is a horrible liar. She fails to be self serving when a self serving lie should be so easy.

She gets tangled in the never found note but makes this luke warm statement about Abby going out, "I did not hear her go or come back, but I supposed she went."

About the guest room she says, "(Abby) she had shut the room up." "I mean the door was closed", Abby wanted to keep the dust out; and, "That has always been a mystery", where Abby was after she went upstairs.


I'll find my notes eventually and I can make a better presentation. There may be a discernable pattern in what she remembers or doesn't remember. I have a feeling we can have a good discussion on this.

[Curryong]

You see, irina, as a convinced Lizzieite, I don't place as much emphasis on Lizzie's vast knowledge of positions of items in the barn as you do. The barn had been there a long time. Items in there had probably been in position there for a long time and would be familiar to the family. She did change her testimony about her activities in the barn ie eating pears, looking for tin/looking for iron, at the Inquest from what she had originally told detectives.

The trouble is that we don't really know Lizzie's activities on that Thursday morning. We can surmise some of them from Bridget's testimony, the only other member of the household present that morning who was left alive. For instance, that Lizzie came down later than the others in the household, at about nine.

Lizzie told the police in her first witness statement that she had last seen Abby alive as she was coming downstairs and that Abby was in the guest bedroom. Later on, she contradicted that and said that Abby was dusting in the dining room and there was the conversation about the note and going out marketing and Abby's remark about slipping upstairs to put fresh pillow slips on the bed in the guest room.

According to Bridget, Lizzie said she didn't feel like breakfast that morning. We don't know whether Lizzie was usually a hearty eater. She (and her sister sometimes) had got out of the habit of eating with the older Bordens. There was a little conversation about molasses cookies and coffee. Bridget felt nauseous soon afterwards and rushed outside, leaving Lizzie sitting at the kitchen table. It's unclear whether she was sipping coffee or not. When Bridget came back after being sick, Lizzie had left the kitchen.

Bridget cleared up the kitchen then went through the downstairs rooms, shutting some of them in preparation for washing them. She testified there was no-one in the downstairs rooms. Then she collected most of her equipment from the washroom cellar and went outside.

It was then around 9:25-9:30 am. Lizzie appeared at the side door and there was the interesting conversation about whether to leave the screen door on the hook. The door itself was left open because of the warm weather. Lizzie then disappeared inside the house and Bridget commenced washing the windows, interspersed with chatting with the Kelly's maid. From then on, as far as is known, Lizzie and Abby were alone in the house.

If we go on to Andrew's arrival back home Lizzie gave contradictory evidence again about where she was just before, contradicting Bridget about chuckling on the stairs. Bridget had just commenced washing the inside windows prior to his arrival and again, she testified that she saw no-one downstairs.

(As for the guest room door being open or shut, it would be in Lizzie's interests to say that Abby wished it to be closed. Her own room in this small house was only steps away. Suppose she was asked by investigators why she hadn't glanced in, with a wide open door?)

Her remembrance of magazine titles, and reading them while she was waiting for her flats to warm isn't that remarkable, in my opinion. I doubt these were new magazines. The family had probably subscribed to them for years. When waiting for flats to warm Lizzie and her sister had done that very thing hundreds of times before, I should think!

Andrew came downstairs from his room at about 10:48-10:50 am. At about that time Lizzie came in from the kitchen where her irons were on the stove, set up her board in the dining room, and commenced ironing her hankies. She started a conversation with Bridget about the sale of fabrics. Bridget was finishing off the dining room windows. That conversation would only have taken a moment or two. Bridget then went off to the sink room, washed her cloths under the tap and departed upstairs. Again, only a matter of moments. During that short conversation Andrew sat on the couch in the sitting room and began to doze....

We all bring our own particular view to bear on Lizzie's statements, both in the witness statements and during the Inquest. Was she muddled or was she a (poor) liar, was she under morphine-fuelled confusion or was she so caught up in the story she wanted to tell that there were inevitable contradictions? I think we can debate that for ever!

[Aamartin]

As careful as Andrew was with locks, his belongings and allegedly picking up an old lock-- one would think he kept that barn well organized.

[Curryong]

I don't think it was as neat as the proverbial new pin, Anthony, but I just can't see that Andrew would have been constantly changing things around. Of course, when the buggy went (was that in 1891?) there would have been some tidying up done then, probably. I just think of Andrew as 'A place for everything and everything in its place' sort of man!

[PossumPie]

I just want to pop in here with a clarification. I have seen many places here, as well as in a courtroom, about Morphine causing forgetfulness, hallucination, etc. Morphine, even in high doses (Lizzie was on a small or moderate dose) does NOT cause any of that. At very high dosages, Morphine can cause sleepiness and uncoordination, at very high dosages you fall asleep, stop breathing, and die, but NOT forgetfulness or hallucinations. A slick lawyer can get a gullible jury to believe anything though. I just saw a news article where a boy beat his girlfriend up so severely that she is in a coma. His lawyer blamed it on "alcohol induced seizures" That is ridiculous. A seizure is an unconscious contracting and relaxing of muscles in spasms. You can't have a seizure and be awake and punching someone. Impossible, yet if the lawyer is convincing enough, the jury will let this cowardly punk off...Be careful blaming anything on Lizzie taking Morphine. It is just a ploy by a slick defense attorney and has NO medical basis.

[irina]

I don't go for the morphine hallucinations idea either.

I also think what Lizzie said right after discovering her father's body COULD indicate some things. Some subjects are safe to remember and some are not. Maybe she had survivor's guilt. Dr. Bowen told her it was lucky she was in the barn or she would have been killed too. That was in a witness statement I think.

[Aamartin]

I don't think it was as neat as the proverbial new pin, Anthony, but I just can't see that Andrew would have been constantly changing things around. Of course, when the buggy went (was that in 1891?) there would have been some tidying up done then, probably. I just think of Andrew as 'A place for everything and everything in its place' sort of man!

And I think it probably was neat as a pin! The Bordens in general strike me as very organized people

[Bob Gutowski]

I think that if we take Lizzie's possible request (to rephrase it, "Go upstairs and face danger!") along with her odd willingness to send Maggie away from the house at a time when a murderer could have been lurking about, things look pretty suspicious for Miss I-have-the-motive, etc. While we're putting phrases in Mrs. Churchill's mouth (and why not?), why didn't Maggie say "Oh, Miss Lizzie, are you sure ya want me ta leave yez here all alone?" It could also be, shock and terror aside, that Maggie simply fell into her proscribed role of servant - her mistress at the moment gave instructions, and she obeyed them.

[Curryong]

I agree. I think Bridget was in a state of confusion and fear, and never more so than in those first few moments when she was told that Andrew was dead. She quickly ran for the doctor (Bowen), was told by his wife that he was out and scuttled back over the road, ultimately bringing Alice Russell back with her.

The Bowens probably had a phone and if Bridget (or Phoebe Bowen, for that matter) had been thinking straight, the police could have been called there and then. Instead we have Mrs Churchill running about near Hall's stables talking loudly of murder and it's left to an onlooker to go and phone the police (and the local newspapers.)

I think Lizzie's statements about hearing Abby coming in amount to almost a plea. "Someone find my upstairs handiwork, PLEASE, and then we can get this 'madman broke into house' show on the road!"

[Bob Gutowski]

Oh, I agree - and since I got pulled into Bordenland over forty wha - forty YEARS ago, I've read of other cases in which the murderer was instrumental in bringing about the discovery of the body. It goes with Lizzie's comment about the nail found in the door lock following the (ha, ha!) burglary: "I don't know if they used that to get in or what..." Lizzie Borden, in her way, was "Miss Captain Obvious."