A New Book

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:03 pm

Please don't shoot me- I know there are other threads with books on it but I wanted to share what came in today's mail: "Lizzie Didn't Do It" by Professor William L. Masterton. He is using modern forensics and extensive research to answer the question convincingly. The question? "If Lizzie didn't swing the hatchet, who did?"

I'll try to come back tonight to share with you all but it might not be until I finish the book- shouldn't be too hard as it's not a thick book. BTW- I don't believe she did it.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:10 pm

Oh I want to shoot you with flowers. Tell me much more! Is it a book recently published? Who did it, then? I am curious...

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:15 pm

Franz wrote:Oh I want to shoot you with flowers. Tell me much more! Is it a book recently published? Who did it, then? I am curious...

LOL! It was published in 2000 and I'm trying to read in order. I don't know who did it yet but I have 2 pages- front to back- with notes and several questions. I'm taking a quick break for dinner. I'll come back to ask the questions I have. The most pressing is how does anyone not notice a crowd of any size (in this case, 100 or more) milling around a house?

The author is a retired Professor from the University of Connecticut (1987). I'm going to look him up after dinner to see if he's got an email address (I'll take a physical address, if there isn't an email address). So far, it's great.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:32 pm

Okay, a new and much more pressing question just came to light:

The Crowe property contained a series of sheds and barns. John Crowe was a stone mason dealing in granite and marble. Several of his employees were working in the yard on the morning of the murders (p. 39).

My question- does anyone remember any testimony where the police questioned Crowe, his men and family? Did they search the sheds and barns?

If it were an intruder, he could have gotten a job (or already been employed), killed the Bordens and hidden the clothes, murder weapon, and anything else relating to the murders in one of the sheds or barns. There was a 3rd door to the house: 1 to the front, 1 to the side and 1 to the cellar (p. 35). I read on the forum (I can't remember the thread) where someone mentioned the window(s) in the cellar being opened or half cracked.

Thoughts, opinions? Go!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:04 pm

Have a look under the thread 'the bleedin' Hatchet' when you've got a few minutes from your reading. Or alternatively, do an advanced search on 'Crowe's Barn Hatchet' and similar titles. I remember several of us got very excited at that discovery!

I knew Franz would be ecstatic! You've made him very happy!

BOBO · Post by **BOBO** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:28 pm

Masterson was full of it!!!

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:16 pm

BOBO wrote:Masterson was full of it!!!

Really? Why? You can't make that statement without backup

So far, it's great!

BOBO · Post by **BOBO** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:33 am

MysteryReader please check the post by "libby" on June 18, 2007. She pretty much summed up my thoughts. Still, enjoy the read!!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:24 am

If Masterton thinks Lizzie didn't do it, does he raise finger to someone? And why?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:27 am

Perhaps there is more than one suspect, Franz! Spoiler!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:11 am

Curryong wrote:Perhaps there is more than one suspect, Franz! Spoiler!

?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:41 am

What I mean is, the author, Dr Masterson, just might have several suspects in mind, which he writes about in his book. However, I'm not going to spoil MysteryReader's surprise, as she's going to tell us all!

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:20 pm

About 1/2 way through the book and then I'll post. However, if any of y'all want to lend me your books, I'm happy to read and return them within 10 days

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:41 pm

what books have you read?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:05 pm

The 'bible', so to speak, is supposedly 'Lizzie Borden, Past and Present' which has everything in it and doesn't push a barrow about any particular subject. However, it is very expensive and hard to get hold of.

Wouldn't be any good me lending you books! I get American books from Amazon and it takes ages to get here after I've ordered!

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:15 pm

Aamartin wrote:what books have you read?

Aa, I've only bought "Lizzie Didn't Do It!" by William Masterton (yes, I hear he's a cherry picker but I love it so far) and I've been looking online. I want to order a couple of more (I can't remember their names right now).

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:16 pm

Curryong wrote:The 'bible', so to speak, is supposedly 'Lizzie Borden, Past and Present' which has everything in it and doesn't push a barrow about any particular subject. However, it is very expensive and hard to get hold of.

Wouldn't be any good me lending you books! I get American books from Amazon and it takes ages to get here after I've ordered!

LOL! Thanks, anyway, Curryong! I'll have to look that one up.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:53 am

I don’t know how Masterton challenged the traditionally accepted death time of Mrs. Borden, about one hour and a half before Mr. Borden, that is, about 9:30. The doctors made such a conclusion based on three --- not only one --- things: 1. the temperature of the bodies; 2. the coagulation of the blood; 3. the digestion of the food found in the stomachs. I hardly believe that these three indicators could give, together and wrongly, a erroneous indication.

Did Masterton question Abby’s death time by saying that the doctors didn’t use a thermometer? The compatriots of Lizzie are Americans and the majority of the forum’s members are American. They may believe more on a machine, an instrument (thermometer) than on the training, the experience, the touch sense of those professional doctors, and this doesn’t surprise me at all.

I firmly believe that the traditionally established death time of Abby, about 9:30, is very very near to the truth. And I think that when Abby was being attacked, Bridget was most probably chatting with Mary at the fence in the back yard. This could explain why Bridget didn’t notice nothing (no matter if Abby could scream or not after receiving the very first blows). And Lizzie,

1. If she was guilty, she, certainly, was killing her stepmother in the guest room.
2. If she was innocent, she might have just met her stepmother who told her that she had received a note and was to go out to pay visit to her sick friend. And then, Lizzie probably went to the cellar to use the water-closet. So, When Abby was being killed in the guest room, about 9:30, Bridget was chatting with Mary at the fence in the back yard; Lizzie was using the water-closet in the cellar: this is my opinion.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:50 am

Quite true Franz about the three doctors and their conclusions, and about using their sight and their sense of touch when estimating time of death. As I pointed out on another thread, doctors in the 19th century used those far more than thermometers, (and all the better for it, I'm sure.)

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:37 am

Hey Franz,

I'll let you know when I get to that exciting chapter!

I do know that in today's time, an ME will take several temperature checks over a course of time and not do it just once. And any ME worth his salt WILL NOT use the touch method to determine how long a person's been dead. And the way these 2 died, also plays a part in timing. Be back later with an explanation. There is a whole chapter on how she died.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:42 pm

Curryong wrote:Quite true Franz about the three doctors and their conclusions, and about using their sight and their sense of touch when estimating time of death. As I pointed out on another thread, doctors in the 19th century used those far more than thermometers, (and all the better for it, I'm sure.)

Very true Curryong. You said what I want to say. Today if you go to hospital, a doctor might ask you to do a dozen of exams (with all those sophisticated medical instruments) before he / she gives you a glance! But in the 19th century, as you said, doctors practized their profession much more using their eyes, hands, noses, ears, and should have had much more direct experiences in the contact with the patients. And in our Borden case specifically, the three indicators (temperature, coagulation, digestion) were coherent in indicating Abby's death time. So I do think their conclusion very near to the truth. I can't imagine why not.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:53 pm

BOBO wrote:MysteryReader please check the post by "libby" on June 18, 2007. She pretty much summed up my thoughts. Still, enjoy the read!!

Under what thread, please?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:18 pm

Are you nearing the conclusions yet, Mystery? Longing to hear about suspects, etc.

By the way, Libby only posted a few times, so if you go into her viewing profile, (under 'Members') or click on her name on a post, you should find it. Unfortunately, she may have felt a little embarrassed about posting after that, as I think Dr Masterson's son was also a member. Not that she could have known that of course!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:47 pm

Curryong, is this the thread you are referring to?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2840&p=48839#p48839

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:50 pm

Found it, thanks!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:15 pm

Thanks so much, twinsrwe.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:09 pm

Thank you, twinsrwe, I read the thread and all the replies. a very constructive reading.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:19 pm

I was going to not post anything new for awhile because I felt that the old posters (with the exception of one or two) just kept brushing off anything I had to say and would just refer me back to what was already posted. This is what I replied in a private chat with a member, who suggested I post here for others to read. I'm NOT attacking anyone else- this is just how I feel about Lizzie:

Yes but it would probably be helpful to answer someone's posts without always referring them back to some previous post. Not to mention, there are only a handful of regulars so it almost does nothing to read them and post something new- they aren't around to answer.

Now that I know what people think of him, I'm not so sure I want to continue to post. What they don't seem to realize is that chapters 1-5, he is using all 3 of the newspaper's events, the trial information and others insights. He's not saying whether she did or didn't do it- he's making the reader think about it and not just take what is being written as the truth.

I just need to pull back some so I don't come across as a whining or bratty user. I'm not, I promise but I find it's not good manners of a lot of the regular posters to simply brush it off. In addition, while I'm trying to understand all of the players, the situation, and terrible things, I come from a crime scene investigation schooling (I can't get a job right now in the field) but I understand things and I'm trying to see where Mr. Masterton is going with things and who he has on his team adding to the whole situation. That's all.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:01 pm

You're welcome, Franz!

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:40 am

MysteryReader wrote:I was going to not post anything new for awhile because I felt that the old posters (with the exception of one or two) just kept brushing off anything I had to say and would just refer me back to what was already posted. This is what I replied in a private chat with a member, who suggested I post here for others to read. I'm NOT attacking anyone else- this is just how I feel about Lizzie:

Yes but it would probably be helpful to answer someone's posts without always referring them back to some previous post. Not to mention, there are only a handful of regulars so it almost does nothing to read them and post something new- they aren't around to answer.

Now that I know what people think of him, I'm not so sure I want to continue to post. What they don't seem to realize is that chapters 1-5, he is using all 3 of the newspaper's events, the trial information and others insights. He's not saying whether she did or didn't do it- he's making the reader think about it and not just take what is being written as the truth.

I just need to pull back some so I don't come across as a whining or bratty user. I'm not, I promise but I find it's not good manners of a lot of the regular posters to simply brush it off. In addition, while I'm trying to understand all of the players, the situation, and terrible things, I come from a crime scene investigation schooling (I can't get a job right now in the field) but I understand things and I'm trying to see where Mr. Masterton is going with things and who he has on his team adding to the whole situation. That's all.

Please continue to post. As for some of us-- we need to be more gracious and understanding when people new to the case show up. Didn't we learn this with wonderful Mr. Franz?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:23 am

Hear hear,.Anthony. And, to make it perfectly clear, in echoing your sentiments, I am not having a go at anyone on the Forum. I am fond of all of you.

What makes it difficult, I think, is that statements/ words of advice in a post often don't come out the way that they are meant because we can't see and hear each other. Therefore, advice sometimes sounds like, I don't know, hectoring or something, to a newbie. I'm including myself in this, by the way (in me giving advice, pointing to previous posts etc.)

I've been in communication with MysteryReader, trying to persuade her to keep posting. I also suggested that she should make her feelings known, so we all know where we stand. Again, I repeat, that as a newbie myself, the last thing I want is for anyone on this forum to feel guilty or offended, or anything else.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:33 am

Curryong wrote:Hear hear,.Anthony. And, to make it perfectly clear, in echoing your sentiments, I am not having a go at anyone on the Forum. I am fond of all of you.

What makes it difficult, I think, is that statements/ words of advice in a post often don't come out the way that they are meant because we can't see and hear each other. Therefore, advice sometimes sounds like, I don't know, hectoring or something, to a newbie. I'm including myself in this, by the way (in me giving advice, pointing to previous posts etc.)

I've been in communication with MysteryReader, trying to persuade her to keep posting. I also suggested that she should make her feelings known, so we all know where we stand. Again, I repeat, that as a newbie myself, the last thing I want is for anyone on this forum to feel guilty or offended, or anything else.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:43 am

Aamartin wrote:
MysteryReader wrote:I was going to not post anything new for awhile because I felt that the old posters (with the exception of one or two) just kept brushing off anything I had to say and would just refer me back to what was already posted. This is what I replied in a private chat with a member, who suggested I post here for others to read. I'm NOT attacking anyone else- this is just how I feel about Lizzie:

Yes but it would probably be helpful to answer someone's posts without always referring them back to some previous post. Not to mention, there are only a handful of regulars so it almost does nothing to read them and post something new- they aren't around to answer.

Now that I know what people think of him, I'm not so sure I want to continue to post. What they don't seem to realize is that chapters 1-5, he is using all 3 of the newspaper's events, the trial information and others insights. He's not saying whether she did or didn't do it- he's making the reader think about it and not just take what is being written as the truth.

I just need to pull back some so I don't come across as a whining or bratty user. I'm not, I promise but I find it's not good manners of a lot of the regular posters to simply brush it off. In addition, while I'm trying to understand all of the players, the situation, and terrible things, I come from a crime scene investigation schooling (I can't get a job right now in the field) but I understand things and I'm trying to see where Mr. Masterton is going with things and who he has on his team adding to the whole situation. That's all.

Please continue to post. As for some of us-- we need to be more gracious and understanding when people new to the case show up. Didn't we learn this with wonderful Mr. Franz?

Oh certainly. All is marvelous here.

Last night I re-read the thread entitled "Was Andrew gay?" and the first replies. I burst into tears while laughing. I appreciate in particular the humour of Angel. When I read her "STOP, I can't stand it." I just can't no more...

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:48 am

Well Franz, what is your opinion? Was he? Joke!

SallyG is also funny about the theory too. Gobbling up pears and using them to mop up blood from yourself! What a picture!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:00 am

Well, the author of that thread, rgreen4411, speculated that Andrew and Morse were engaging in sexual activities and Abby discovered this, etc.

I respect all theories. But I don't know how regreen4411 could pulverize all those testimonies concerning the whereabouts of the two homo "lovers" in the town.

I never doubt Andrew of being a straight. But Morse, ehmmm....

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:12 am

MysteryReader wrote:I was going to not post anything new for awhile because I felt that the old posters (with the exception of one or two) just kept brushing off anything I had to say and would just refer me back to what was already posted. This is what I replied in a private chat with a member, who suggested I post here for others to read. I'm NOT attacking anyone else- this is just how I feel about Lizzie:

Yes but it would probably be helpful to answer someone's posts without always referring them back to some previous post. Not to mention, there are only a handful of regulars so it almost does nothing to read them and post something new- they aren't around to answer.

Now that I know what people think of him, I'm not so sure I want to continue to post. What they don't seem to realize is that chapters 1-5, he is using all 3 of the newspaper's events, the trial information and others insights. He's not saying whether she did or didn't do it- he's making the reader think about it and not just take what is being written as the truth.

I just need to pull back some so I don't come across as a whining or bratty user. I'm not, I promise but I find it's not good manners of a lot of the regular posters to simply brush it off. In addition, while I'm trying to understand all of the players, the situation, and terrible things, I come from a crime scene investigation schooling (I can't get a job right now in the field) but I understand things and I'm trying to see where Mr. Masterton is going with things and who he has on his team adding to the whole situation. That's all.

MysteryReader, I think I speak for all the active members that we are glad you are here and posting! I know sometimes I prod people to read "old posts" when they bring up something that has been well-worked before. It isn't b/c I am lazy in answering, but that there are some incredible facts and opinions in those old threads. I think the one piece of advice I give new members is to remember almost ANY theory can be supported by emphasizing certain aspects, quotes, and facts and suppressing others. When I first started reading about the Borden case, I flip-flopped from "she's guilty!" to "She's innocent!" virtually every time I read a different book or account.

I speak only for myself in saying that I have "put in my time" with this case, read, and re-read all of the primary documents many times, and sometimes I forget that not everyone is in that position yet. The search button IS your friend however. Virtually any question you have has been worked over extensively in several old threads. Read them, and then please post new perspectives. We love to have fresh ideas.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:19 am

Curryong wrote:... Gobbling up pears and using them to mop up blood from yourself! What a picture!

I can't say nothing because I never tried this!

But, to eat pears in the barn to attempt to eliminate --- or at least to diminish --- the odor of a cigar or alcool. Could this be a picture less improbable?

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:32 am

Franz wrote:I don’t know how Masterton challenged the traditionally accepted death time of Mrs. Borden, about one hour and a half before Mr. Borden, that is, about 9:30. The doctors made such a conclusion based on three --- not only one --- things: 1. the temperature of the bodies; 2. the coagulation of the blood; 3. the digestion of the food found in the stomachs. I hardly believe that these three indicators could give, together and wrongly, a erroneous indication.

Did Masterton question Abby’s death time by saying that the doctors didn’t use a thermometer? The compatriots of Lizzie are Americans and the majority of the forum’s members are American. They may believe more on a machine, an instrument (thermometer) than on the training, the experience, the touch sense of those professional doctors, and this doesn’t surprise me at all.

I firmly believe that the traditionally established death time of Abby, about 9:30, is very very near to the truth. And I think that when Abby was being attacked, Bridget was most probably chatting with Mary at the fence in the back yard. This could explain why Bridget didn’t notice nothing (no matter if Abby could scream or not after receiving the very first blows). And Lizzie,

1. If she was guilty, she, certainly, was killing her stepmother in the guest room.
2. If she was innocent, she might have just met her stepmother who told her that she had received a note and was to go out to pay visit to her sick friend. And then, Lizzie probably went to the cellar to use the water-closet. So, When Abby was being killed in the guest room, about 9:30, Bridget was chatting with Mary at the fence in the back yard; Lizzie was using the water-closet in the cellar: this is my opinion.

I agree Franz, Masterson lost my respect when he insisted they were killed about the same time. I am a nurse, and the evidence given about the estimated time of death of soon after 9:30 is based on sound medical knowledge, even at today's standards. Masterson ignored medical evidence.

The coagulation of blood in the larger pools happened much earlier in Mrs. Borden. The chemical process of fibrinogen converting to fibrin and clotting in large pools can be roughly calculated based on time since spilled, amount of blood, and temperature. The blood in a dead body ceases to be able to coagulate due to the release of fibrinolysins, That is why we can tell if a body has been moved post mortem- Livor Mortis is the pooling of un-cloted blood in the lower areas of the body due to gravity. The back, arms and legs of a body laying on it's back will be purple, while the belly and chest will be white. BUT, the blood that has pooled around a body will harden and clot at a given rate because there is no fibrinolysis outside the body. There was extensive clotting/drying of the blood around the body, pointing to a much earlier time of death than Mr. Borden.
Also, they ate about the same time but the peristalsis through the upper GI tract of Mrs. Borden shows much less digestion than Mr. Borden, pointing to death of Mrs. Borden very soon after ingestion of the food. If she had been killed much later than 9:30 the stomach acid and pancreatic enzymes would have digested her food to a greater extent than was seen in autopsy.
Taken along with the blood coagulation, about an hour and a half longer time to live.
Abby left to go upstairs about 9:30am with some slip covers for the bed in the room she was found dead in. She more than likely was putting on those covers when she met her death. No one else saw or heard from her after that period. We know T.O.D. of Mr. Borden was about 11:00-11:10am, working backwards, Mrs. Borden was likely killed about 9:30-9:45am. Masterson cherry-picks the blood coagulation argument (that they didn't find her body until later explaining the coagulation) but ignores the fact that at the moment of death, pancreatic enzymes and digestion stops, giving you and accurate length of time between ingestion of food and stoppage of digestion.

BOBO · Post by **BOBO** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:33 am

MysteryReader wrote:I was going to not post anything new for awhile because I felt that the old posters (with the exception of one or two) just kept brushing off anything I had to say and would just refer me back to what was already posted. This is what I replied in a private chat with a member, who suggested I post here for others to read. I'm NOT attacking anyone else- this is just how I feel about Lizzie:

Yes but it would probably be helpful to answer someone's posts without always referring them back to some previous post. Not to mention, there are only a handful of regulars so it almost does nothing to read them and post something new- they aren't around to answer.

Now that I know what people think of him, I'm not so sure I want to continue to post. What they don't seem to realize is that chapters 1-5, he is using all 3 of the newspaper's events, the trial information and others insights. He's not saying whether she did or didn't do it- he's making the reader think about it and not just take what is being written as the truth.

I just need to pull back some so I don't come across as a whining or bratty user. I'm not, I promise but I find it's not good manners of a lot of the regular posters to simply brush it off. In addition, while I'm trying to understand all of the players, the situation, and terrible things, I come from a crime scene investigation schooling (I can't get a job right now in the field) but I understand things and I'm trying to see where Mr. Masterton is going with things and who he has on his team adding to the whole situation. That's all.

If I have offended anyone, in any manner, PLEASE forgive. It was done out of ignorance and not spite.

MysteryReader · Post by **MysteryReader** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:22 am

I agree Franz, Masterson lost my respect when he insisted they were killed about the same time. I am a nurse, and the evidence given about the estimated time of death of soon after 9:30 is based on sound medical knowledge, even at today's standards. Masterson ignored medical evidence.

Ah, a nurse, Possum

I haven't fully studied it yet and all but you have to keep in mind how heat/humidity affects blood- down in the south, bodies decomp faster than they would in the north simply because of the heat/humidity (and if they are outside, the elements)

Have you ever been to the body farm?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:51 am

I suppose we don't know how hot it was in the guest room? I think Dr Bowen said something about the temperature he thought it was, but I can't remember. It was a north-facing room, wasn't it? And the shutters were closed. That would have made a difference, I would have thought.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:44 pm

Since I am off work, with pay-- I am going to re-read ALL my Lizzie books!