Guest Room Door

[stargazer]

Didn't Lizzie say that the door to the guestroom was closed when she was upstairs (taking laundry up, sewing a loop on a sleeve) ? If that's true, how did it come to be opened when Bridget went up the steps to search for Abby ? Maybe it's answered somewhere on this board. (God knows we cover everything we can) I doubt that the wind blew it open. Not sure why this question came to me, but I was going over what Lizzie said about her whereabouts when 'father' came home.

[Yooper]

That is indeed contradictory testimony, and either Lizzie or Bridget was wrong, or both were correct. If Bridget was wrong and the door was closed when she went upstairs, then Lizzie had an excuse for not noticing Abby in the guest room. If Lizzie was wrong and the door was open then she had less of an excuse, but that doesn't necessarily mean she would have looked into the room and noticed Abby. I think tests were performed and the outcome was that Abby would have been visible from the stairway looking under the bed, as Mrs. Churchill did on her way upstairs, or by physically entering the guest room. Abby couldn't be seen from the hallway at the top of the stairs with the door open. The third possibility, that both Lizzie and Bridget were correct, means that someone opened the door after Lizzie descended the stairs and before Bridget and Mrs. Churchill found Abby. It implies that an intruder might have hidden in the guest room, waited for Lizzie and Bridget to leave, then came downstairs and killed Andrew.

It would be helpful to know how far behind Bridget Mrs. Churchill was. Mrs. Churchill said she saw Abby by looking beneath the bed through the open door. This suggests Bridget had opened the door and had at least started into the room if the door was closed. If Mrs. Churchill was only a couple of steps behind Bridget, then the door was probably open, but if she was far enough behind to allow Bridget time to open the door before she had ascended the stairs to where she could see Abby from halfway up the stairway, then the door might have either been closed or open. This almost allows for one possibility to be eliminated, the closed door option. I don't think Bridget was far enough ahead of Mrs. Churchill to gain over half of the stairway before Mrs. Churchill started up because neither one wanted to go upstairs alone, they likely would have been closer together. In my opinion, the door was probably open. This means that either Lizzie was mistaken, or someone other than Lizzie or Bridget opened it.

[stargazer]

I like your way of explaining things. I can imagine Bridget, and Mrs. Churchill sticking fairly close together, as well. The killer could still be in the house, and over by the sewing machine. Pounce ! Two more bodies. I think that the "note" story is a dead giveaway (pardon the pun) that Lizzie was in on the murders.

[Yooper]

One other thought, if the door had been closed, would Bridget have been apprehensive about going into the room with Mrs. Churchill stalled halfway up the stairs? I think she would have at least waited for Mrs. Churchill to ascend completely before opening the door, or more likely, hollered for help! Everything seems to point to the door being open.

I also think the note story was a complete fabrication. The way it had to be pried out of Lizzie at the inquest is a good indicator. She had to be prompted for the information six or eight times!

[stargazer]

I also found it strange that the doctor said "Addie, do come in and have a look at Mr. Borden." Something to that effect I read. That sounds a bit loopy.

[Yooper]

Bowen didn't seem to be at his best that day, at least I hope he wasn't! He was also "satisfied that something was wrong" because they had been sick the previous day. How in the world do you logically infer a hatchet murder from food poisoning? However, there is a way for that observation to make perfect sense, but it calls for some speculation. If Abby had visited Bowen the morning of the 3rd complaining that someone was trying to poison them, everything fits. Then, if someone was trying to kill them with poison and they were found murdered the next day by whatever means, Bowen might indeed be "satisfied that something was wrong". If we add the fact that Bowen was "greatly relieved" to find out that the stomachs contained no poison after being examined, we might infer that Bowen was perhaps a bit nervous about his original diagnosis of food poisoning when he realized Abby and Andrew were dead. He might have been preoccupied with the idea that his reputation was in jeopardy, and that could explain his apparent lapses on the 4th.

[shakiboo]

When reading about the door being closed, I remembered reading some where, that Lizzie had said Mrs. Borden was expecting company on Monday and was going to shut the room up when she'd finished cleaning to keep the dust or what ever out of the room. So, if that were true Lizzie seeing the closed door wouldn't have thought anything unusual about it at the time. But what if Lizzie had opened the door and went in to get what ever sewing articles she needed to sew the loop or what ever it was that she needed to sew, and left the door open when she left? From the sewing machine, would she have been able to see the body, if she wasn't looking for it?

[stargazer]

Lizzie covered her tail by having reasons to be meandering through the house. Munching a cookie, reading a magazine, fixing a loose thread, going wee wee, heading out to the barn at just the right moment to search for those daggoned sinkers, ironing, tending the fire, chatting with Abby about what Lizzie wanted for supper .

[Yooper]

When reading about the door being closed, I remembered reading some where, that Lizzie had said Mrs. Borden was expecting company on Monday and was going to shut the room up when she'd finished cleaning to keep the dust or what ever out of the room. So, if that were true Lizzie seeing the closed door wouldn't have thought anything unusual about it at the time. But what if Lizzie had opened the door and went in to get what ever sewing articles she needed to sew the loop or what ever it was that she needed to sew, and left the door open when she left? From the sewing machine, would she have been able to see the body, if she wasn't looking for it?

Lizzie, Inquest, p. 63:
Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed and was going to close the room because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.

I don't think Lizzie's contention of company on Monday was ever substantiated.
I don't know where the sewing machine was located in the guest room and I don't know how far into the room someone would have to go to see Abby, so I expect Lizzie would probably have seen Abby if she went into the room, but possibly not. Lizzie may well have had minor sewing implements in her room, needle, thread, etc.

[Yooper]

Lizzie covered her tail by having reasons to be meandering through the house. Munching a cookie, reading a magazine, fixing a loose thread, going wee wee, heading out to the barn at just the right moment to search for those daggoned sinkers, ironing, tending the fire, chatting with Abby about what Lizzie wanted for supper .

Lizzie had no one to refute what she said about where she was while Bridget was outside washing windows, and again while Bridget was in her room. When others are able to refute Lizzie's testimony, we get the "she's in, she's out, she's all about" foolishness about Lizzie thinking Abby was simultaneously out, and had returned. We hear about "I'm up, I'm down, I'm all around" with respect to Lizzie's whereabouts when Bridget let Andrew in the front door. The footprints on Lizzie's dress are her own, from running herself over!

[nbcatlover]

See "Abby Durfee Gray's line" under the Heritage topic for some speculation on who was coming to visit.

[Franz]

Lizzie said the guest room door was closed when she was upstairs; Bridget and Mrs. Churchill testified it was open when they went upstairs to search Mrs. Borden. I don’t think there is any contradiction in their testimonies, they all told the truth.

My theory (for the moment) is this one: the real killer was an intruder. After killing Mrs. Borden, he had been hiding in the guest room (the best place for him) with the door closed and waiting Mr. Borden’s return. It was during the killer’s waiting time that Lizzie was upstairs and found the guest room door closed. After seeing Mr. Borden entering in the house, the killer chose the best moment to go to attack his second target. Leaving the room in a hurry he didn’t shut the door, that’s why Bridget and Mrs. Churchill found it open afterwards.

To be honest, I was convinced of Lizzie’s guilt, but the guest room door’s being found open by Bridget and Mrs. Churchill forced me to reflect: if Lizzie were the author of the murders, knowing that she would have to wait more than one hour before her father’s return, she would have closed the door after killing her stepmother in order to minimize the risk that Mrs. Borden’s body could be found before her programmed second killing.

According to me, the guest room door is an important detail: it could be considered (indeed I consider it) as a circumstantial evidence for Lizzie’s innocence.

[Franz]

Yooper, among others, has discussed the possibility that one intruder was hiding in the guest room with the door closed, and then opened it, went dowstairs and killed Mr. Borden. I think Yooper's conjecture is highly probable.

[Yooper]

I don't believe an intruder is highly probable or even remotely probable. In fact, I doubt that it's much more than remotely possible. How would an intruder hiding in the guest room know when to come downstairs to kill Andrew undetected? It isn't something they would leave to chance if they had just spent an hour and a half deliberately avoiding detection. An intruder would have no good reason to leave Lizzie and/or Bridget alive if they were planning a double murder over a span of time.

[Smudgeman]

Thank you Yooper. What does an intruder gain to benefit from the murders? People generally murder for money, drugs, or sex. In this case it is clearly for money, slam dunk!

[Franz]

Hello Yooper and Smudgeman. Very happy to discuss with you.

This first part is for Yooper. Maybe I didn’t explain well. What I would like to say is this: if we suppose that there were an intruder, then, considering the guest room door’s being closed at one moment and being open at another, it’s highly probable that the intruder was hiding in the guest room with the door closed, and then opened it, went downstairs, killed Mr. Borden.

You said that you “doubt that it's much more than remotely possible”. I imagine that you are more convinced of Lizzie’s guilt and there wasn’t an intruder at all. It’s OK., I never deny the possibility that Lizzie could be guilty, even though I am more convinced of her innocence.

I think we all agree with one thing: the Borden case is not a common one. The unique accused was acquitted; in more than 120 years it fascinated and fascinates still and surely continue to fascinate so many people. Many theories have been proposed but none of them is fully convincing. It should not be wrong if we say that in that fatal morning of August 4, 1892, it occurred something of extraordinary in the Borden house. I can even agree with you that the intruder theory isn’t “much more than remotely possible”, but meanwhile I think that in the Borden case the most remote possibility could have been the truth. If there were actually an intruder, he ran certainly a huge risk to be detected all the time he was in the house, but he had been very lucky that morning. This was really something of extraordinary, but this was not absolutely impossible.

Why this intruder killed only Mr. and Mrs. Borden? My answer is this one: this murderer didn’t kill only for satisfy his desire of killing; he was a killer with principle, he had his targets: Mr. and Mrs. Borden. For the murderer Lizzie and Bridget didn’t deserve being killed by him. (But during his waiting time, if Lizzie and/or Bridget unfortunately entered in the guest room, he probably killed them as well. Fortunately this didn’t happen.) For this reason I really want to read the book of Arnold Brown. Saying so, I don’t mean that I have accepted his theory about William Borden.

This is for Smudgeman. It’s true that one can commit a murder for money, sex or drugs, but I think there are still many other motives, and I will not exclude none of them discussing with other members in this forum.

The Borden case is really fascinating, it’s very complicated as well. For the moment I am more convinced of Lizzie’s innocence, but I keep and will always keep my mind open, and widely.

Thank you for your opposite opinions. I can disagree with them, but they are always constructive for a sound discussion.

[Angel]

Why does everyone think the possible intruder had to be hiding in a closet or the guest room? He could have been just as easily hiding in the cellar.

[Franz]

Why does everyone think the possible intruder had to be hiding in a closet or the guest room? He could have been just as easily hiding in the cellar.

If the possible intruder hid in a place other than the guest room, there would have been the risk that Mrs. Borden’s body was found before the murderer could commit his second programmed killing.

[DJ]

Or, hide in Mr. and Mrs. Borden's bedroom, if he/she could find the key (which was practically on display on the sitting-room mantel) or pick the lock.

That way, he could hear anyone coming up the stairs, and be ready to ambush, from the rear, from behind the closed door.

In fact, that would have been an even better way to dispatch Mr. Borden, out of sight of the rest of the household and any possible downstairs traffic. One good surprise chop from the rear, and the only sound would have been of his body hitting the floor.

[Yooper]

Any hiding place other than the guest room doubled the risk of detection, Abby's body being found and the perpetrator being found. I seriously doubt an intruder would have hid in the broom closet like a perpsicle for an hour and a half.

[mspitstop]

Very early in the trial, a city engineer, Thomas Kiernan, I believe, testified. He was curious and so ran tests himself. His conclusion was that only in one particular place and only when he was looking for it, was he able to see the 6 ft body of his assistant lying in the mrs. borden's death position. He said it was unlikely one would see a body, just coming up the stairs normally. It was the first big blow to the prosecution and it was a doozie!

[Allen]

I agree that it's highly unlikely that an intruder would first navigate the house with all of it's locked doors and remain undetected to get to the guest room, and then know when to come down to kill Andrew without being seen. An intruder would not know which doors were kept locked. He would not have known where the members of the household were at any given time to avoid them. This person is avoiding three or four human obstacles in a house full of locked doors. And it would have been just as easy if he/she was there to commit murder anyway to kill everyone than hide out trying to avoid being caught for over and hour. Or as Angel suggested, when to come up from the cellar. This intruder would have to be an invisible psychic. I'm not sure how closely the bed that is now in the guest room resembles the dimensions of the original bed, but on my visits to the B&B we had no trouble seeing someone lying next to the bed as we came upstairs. I could look over and see them after I had reached a certain point on the stairs with no problem. And for two women who are treading cautiously with each step thinking a killer might be upstairs, or maybe expecting to find more dead bodies, I'm sure they were looking around very carefully as they climbed those stairs.

[Allen]

If any intruder came in the back door, as the defense suggested, wouldn't his first inclination have been to go either up the back stairs, or down cellar? Bridget went down cellar to get things to wash the windows. The Borden's bedroom door was kept locked blocking off that route to the guest room. And I believe the guest room door was open the whole morning after Abby went in there.

[Allen]

These are the photos that we took on our visit from the point on the stairs when you could see me lying on the floor beside the bed. For some reason the camera played tricks trying to take pictures with it in front of the banister. It threw shadows in the picture where there were none. It was not that dark or hard to see. Putting the flash on only made it worse. So I put the camera behind the banister and took a photo and it came out better.

[Franz]

Could anyone give me an explication? If the killer were not an intruder but Lizzie, why she didn't shut the door of the guest room after her first killing? According to me she undoubtedly would have shut it and very carefully, no matter whether one can see Mrs. Borden's body from outside. I really can't imagine that she could have commited such an imprudence, if she were the killer and premeditated the murders.

[Yooper]

Since the front door was locked when Andrew arrived, and again later when officer Allen reached the Borden house, it was probably locked all morning since Andrew and John Morse both left from the rear door. The rear door pretty well had to be how an intruder would enter. If they wanted to remain undetected, they would probably avoid the main floor of the house. Bridget opened the interior door when she got the milk early that morning, and the inner door remained open. If I'm not mistaken, the screen door was kept hooked except while Bridget was outside washing windows, at least it was unhooked long enough for Bridget to retrieve the dipper from wherever it was kept, and again when she was finished outside.

Thanks for the photos, Allen. It comes to mind that someone can be seen behind the bed from that vantage point, but only if the person climbing the stairs looks for that. Clearly, Mrs. Churchill thought to look the day of the murders, but Bridget apparently did not. One reason Mrs. Churchill may have thought to look under the bed was because they were going to look for Abby in that room, so she was prepared for the worst. Another reason might be that Mrs. Churchill didn't want to ascend the stairs any further than she had to if there was someone lurking about. The point is, we can see someone there only if we look for them. I don't know how likely that is in the course of an ordinary day.

[DJ]

Yes, thanks for sharing the photos, Allen!

If you're on the alert to notice something, you're much more inclined to do so.

[Yooper]

Witness Statements, p.2, John Fleet, August 4:
Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs.

I expect Lizzie meant the guest bedroom rather than Lizzie's bedroom. This indicates Abby was alive in the guest room, and likely without an intruder present.

[Yooper]

Could anyone give me an explication? If the killer were not an intruder but Lizzie, why she didn't shut the door of the guest room after her first killing? According to me she undoubtedly would have shut it and very carefully, no matter whether one can see Mrs. Borden's body from outside. I really can't imagine that she could have commited such an imprudence, if she were the killer and premeditated the murders.

Bridget's duties didn't include anything in that part of the house, so it isn't likely she would inadvertently discover Abby. If Andrew was looking for Abby, or if John Morse had left something in the guest room, a closed door wouldn't have prevented either from entering and finding Abby. Emma was not home at the time. I can't think of anyone else who might have had any reason to go up the front stairs.

The story about the note prevented Andrew from searching for Abby and I think that was the reason for the note story in the first place.

[BOBO]

Lizzie said the guest room door was closed when she was upstairs; Bridget and Mrs. Churchill testified it was open when they went upstairs to search Mrs. Borden. I don’t think there is any contradiction in their testimonies, they all told the truth.

My theory (for the moment) is this one: the real killer was an intruder. After killing Mrs. Borden, he had been hiding in the guest room (the best place for him) with the door closed and waiting Mr. Borden’s return. It was during the killer’s waiting time that Lizzie was upstairs and found the guest room door closed. After seeing Mr. Borden entering in the house, the killer chose the best moment to go to attack his second target. Leaving the room in a hurry he didn’t shut the door, that’s why Bridget and Mrs. Churchill found it open afterwards.

To be honest, I was convinced of Lizzie’s guilt, but the guest room door’s being found open by Bridget and Mrs. Churchill forced me to reflect: if Lizzie were the author of the murders, knowing that she would have to wait more than one hour before her father’s return, she would have closed the door after killing her stepmother in order to minimize the risk that Mrs. Borden’s body could be found before her programmed second killing.

According to me, the guest room door is an important detail: it could be considered (indeed I consider it) as a circumstantial evidence for Lizzie’s innocence.

Franz, that is why I suspect Lizzie opened the door AFTER sending Bridget to get Dr. Bowen.

[Franz]

Yes, BOBO, IF Lizzie committed the murder, she, or 1: never closed the guest room door (but gave a false testimony to protect herself) --- This hypothesis is psycologically difficult to imagine for me; or 2: she closed the door and then, she reopened it. In this case I think more probable that she reopened it at a moment between her killing Andrew and her calling Bridget.

If we consider the guest room door's being open separately, I personally think that this detail is in favor for Lizzie's innocence.

[Curryong]

I think Lizzie probably left it open. With Emma gone and Bridget never going up the front stairs who would see? If her father went upstairs when he got home he would use the back stairs to get to his room. I don't believe she knew about Andrew's invitation to Uncle John to come back at midday for a meal. She wasn't up when John left.
Afterwards Lizzie wanted to get the show on the road and have that body found (by others.)