Lizzie's European Vacation

[NancyDrew]

This 'grand tour of Europe' that Lizzie took...is there a place where I can find more information about it?

(I'm sorry if this is old ground; I tried to find older posts about it, but wasn't successful).

1. Who were her traveling companions? Does anyone know their names? Where ANY interviewed?
2. Did she share a stateroom with someone? Were they ever tracked down and interviewed?
3. What countries did she visit?
4. Where did she stay in Europe, or were all her visits daily ports-of-call excursions?
5. Did she make any friends across the pond?
6. How about the ship's crew? Even back then, they made an attempt to get to know the passengers, and Lizzie was a single woman traveling with (presumably) other single, rich women. I'm sure the some of the staff, maybe even the captain, introduced themselves. There might have been other passengers on the ship who befriended Lizzie too...

And finally...what would the cost of a trip like be back then? Today cruises to the Caribbean are fairly inexpensive (on Carnival or RC at least). I looked up a Cruise to Europe and today it would cost over $20K. What did Andrew fork over back then?

Okay...ONE more "final" question: WHY DIDN'T EMMA GO TOO? Was she gifted with her own European grand tour at some point in the past? Didn't it occur for the two sisters to go together?

Thanks everyone!

-ND

[NancyDrew]

One more quick question before I go to work:

I've been on about five cruises. Each one had LOTS of folks taking pictures...not just the passengers, but the cruise folks themselves. Was this the practice back in the late 19th century? Wouldn't one think that passengers on a cruise would want a photograph to commemorate the trip?

Towards that end, were there NO photographs or even a photographer aboard the ship Lizzie was on? Does anyone know?

THANKS EVERYONE: have a great day!!!

-ND

[Kristin]

In the one book that I read(it was written in the early 60's and I can't remember the exact name of it) it states that Lizzie went abroad with some of her wealthier cousins and they visited England, Scotland, France and Italy. I think it said the vacation was about 3 months. Other than that, the book didn't really go into too much detail about her trip overseas.

[Yooper]

The following from "Lizzie Borden, Past & Present" by Leonard Rebello:

Anna Howland Borden and her sister Carrie Lindley Borden, Elizabeth Brayton, Sarah Brayton, and Ellen M. Shove travelled with Lizzie from Boston to Liverpool aboard the S.S. Scythia on June 21, 1890. Anna H. and Carrie Borden were not related to Lizzie. Lizzie returned to Boston on the same ship November 1, 1890.

Red Star Line: direct steamship, 2nd cabin passage from Boston $35.00, 1st cabin $45.00 and up.
Cunard Line: Cabin passage, $60, $80, $100.

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Please allow me to throw a wrench into the machine here.

Lizzie, Anna and Carrie were indeed related.

Lizzie's Great, Great Grandfather (Richard Borden) and Anna and Carrie's Great, Great Grandfather is the same guy.

Anna and Carrie's Grandfather, Colonel Richard Borden and Lizzie's Grandfather, Abraham B Borden, were first cousins.

Anna and Carrie were born on the richer side of the Borden Family Tree.

[Yooper]

So, Lizzie was a third cousin to Anna and Carrie, sorry for the misinformation. I'll make a note in the book, thanks Mike!

[mbhenty]

Yes Yooper.

It is not known why Anna Borden testified in court that she was not related to Lizzie. Perhaps she misunderstood the question. Perhaps she no longer wanted to be connected to her infamous cousin.

But to clarify the issue for you a little more, below is an old forum thread on the matter.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive04 ... ealogy.htm

[mbhenty]

Yes.

If you read carefully how Moody is asking Anna the question about her relationship to Lizzie, it is very confusing.

What he is really asking her is if it is not true that they are NOT related. Anna says No. Making it sound that she was denying her relation to lizzie, when in reality she was concurring that what Moody said was NOT TRUE and that she was indeed related to Lizzie.

HUH?


MR. MOODY. Be good enough to lift your veil.

Q. (By Mr. Moody.) What is your full name?
A. Anna H. Borden.

Q. You live in Fall River, Miss Borden, do you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And have all your life?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are, I believe, not a relative of the prisoner?
A. No, sir.






.

[Yooper]

I agree, the negatively phrased question is misleading, and frankly, a bit tedious. Why not simply ask "are you related to..." and get a straight and direct answer? Some people might try to clarify the answer by stating the relationship despite the question, but if the individual is a bit intimidated they might not.

[NancyDrew]

I am fascinated by the prospect of steamships ("SS") travel in the 1800's...when compared to cruiselines today, the differences are startling.

Apparently there were 2 "SS Scythia"; it looks like Lizzie made her European voyage on the first one: (from the website www.theshipslist.com)

SCYTHIA 1874
The SCYTHIA was a 4,557 gross ton ship, built by J.& G.Thomson, Glasgow in 1874 for the British & North American Royal Mail Steam Packet Co (Cunard Line). Her details were - length 420.8ft x beam 42.2ft, straight stem, one funnel, three masts (rigged for sail), iron construction, single screw and a speed of 13 knots. There was accommodation for 300-1st and 1,100-3rd class passengers. Launched on 28th Oct.1874, she sailed from Liverpool on her maiden voyage to Queenstown (Cobh) and New York on 1st May 1875. On 9th July 1884 she commenced her first Liverpool - Queenstown - Boston sailing and subsequent sailings were mostly on this route. Her last voyage started on 20th Sep.1898 when she left Liverpool for Queenstown and New York and she was scrapped in Italy the following year. [North Atlantic Seaway by N.R.P.Bonsor, vol.1,p.152]

The 2nd boat, also named Scythia, was launched in 1920, and made her final crossing in 1957(!) before being scrapped.

PS I still wonder if there were photographs take aboard ship...been searching, no far nothing...

[Franz]

I checked the old threads with the key words: Europe tour, and I think this thread is the right place to post my question:

Lizzie spent three months in Europe, almost one months in each country she visited: UK, France, Italy. But she visited only a few cities, right? Three months are a long time for a few cities (London, Paris, Rome, etc.) I would like to know if Lizzie, during her trip, had made any acquaintence and, especially, if she kept in touch with them by corrispondence --- at least for some time --- after her return in America. It should be exciting to discover some Lizzie's letters, postcards, etc., in the old Continent. The idea could seem childish, but when I heard, from time to time, some news saying that a lost painting of Renoir has been re-found in a flea market...

Did such a correspondence exsit? I am curious...

[Curryong]

It would indeed be wonderful to discover artifacts like that, Franz. Of course 1890 was long before the days of the Kodak handheld camera, so I doubt she brought back many happy-snaps. We know she went to England and Scotland but I wonder whether they made a short side-trip to Ireland at all. She was impressed by Scotland, we know.

The Red Star Line was a joint venture between firms in Philadelphia and Antwerp, according to Wikipedia (yeah, I know)
It lasted until the Depression.
It says there's a museum based in the Red Star Line's old warehouses in Antwerp which was opened in 2013. It features memorabilia, and travel stories of their passengers (of course some emigrated to the US in steerage. Not our Lizzie's style, however.

I really think she would have remembered that wonderful trip all her life.