Lizzie too short amongst other things...

[MysteryReader]

Okay, Lizzie was short at 5'4 and Abby was short at 5'3. According to the testimony of Dr. Cheever, (professor of surgery and anatomy at Harvard Medical School in Camridge, MA):

(Q). Adams: "Coming now to the injuries which you found upon the head of Mrs. Borden, I understand you to say that there are three which, in your opinion, may have been caused before she fell?"
A. Cheever: "Yes, sir."
Adams: "Namely the one in front, covered by a flap, and the two on the crown of the head?"
Cheever: "Yes, sir."
Adams: "The two upon the crown of the head, if she were standing, would they naturally have been given by a person who was taller than she, assuming that the instrument was a hatchet with a handle a foot long?"
Cheever: "If she was standing upright, they must have been given by a taller person."

So, it strikes me that Lizzie was too short to have been the killer of Abby (you try it out without a hatchet and see if you can strike your 5'4 friend/family if you're that short or shorter. If you're taller than 5'4, you might have an easier time of it).

Also, I don't think Lizzie (or any female, myself included, is strong enough to break the handle off a hatchet). When a person is going to do that, they'd grab the blade and handle to break it and would be putting themselves at risk for cutting fingers/palm of hand. If the hatchet was used with a broken handle, the person still would risk injuring themselves.

Dr. Wood tested the blade of the handless hatchet but does anyone know if he tested the other axes/hatchets where the blade connects to the handle. From personal usage and observation, humans forget that liquid can usually be found by the blade/handle or bristles/handle.

I apologize if any of this is discussed on any thread since I'm not done reading them.

Go!

[Curryong]

I hate to sound like a school ma'am, MysteryReader, but when you are quoting from a book, could we, pretty please, have book, author, page

Both women were around the same height, it's true, but we don't know what footwear Lizzie was wearing for the killing of Abby. They may have been the casual ballet-type slippers she handed over to the police several days after the murders, or they may not.

If she was wearing ankle boots with a little heel and Abby was clad in a pair of Andrew's old boots, (as per the photograph taken of Abby from behind in the guest room on the day of the murder) that could have given her the advantage of an inch or so.

Even if Lizzie was wearing slippers (as I suspect she was, actually) she may have still had an advantage. Abby would almost certainly not have realised until the last moment that Lizzie had a hatchet. We speculated on the thread 'All about Abby' about the position Abby was in, relative to that first blow being struck.

Imagine this, (and, of course, it's pure speculation because we don't actually know) suppose Lizzie had an armful of linen (from downstairs where Bridget had deposited the washed clean clothing) and, concealed in that linen was a hatchet. Suppose she started a conversation up in the guest room, getting nearer and nearer to Abby all the time, behind her.

We know, because of the blood spatter (which debbiediablo illustrated in the thread 'All about Abby') that Abby was very near one side of the bed when attacked. What if, therefore, she was bending, leaning, over that bed, smoothing the pillow shams or coverlet, with her back to Lizzie, when she was first struck? There was blood splatter (only a little, it's true) on both shams and the bed coverlet. That last, is in the care of the Fall River Historical Society, which displays it from time to time. Abby would, in that position, be vulnerable.

Of course, we don't know the sequence of blows. Experts, then and now, can make an educated guess, but they weren't there in that guest room either! Once stunned, Abby would have fallen to the floor, and the rest, (for her murderer) would have been easy.

As far as the hatchet was concerned, many posters have speculated that Lizzie went out to the barn after Andrew's murder, and quickly slipped it into a vice which was there, splitting the handle off. If it was a very old axe the handle may have flown off in the fury of the attack, but I agree with you that it's not very likely.

I am a total sugar for the theory that the Crowe's Barn hatchet (discussed in 'The Bleedin' Hatchet' and other threads, just search for 'Crowe's Barn Hatchet.') is the murder weapon. I believe that Lizzie threw that hatchet onto the smaller, flat-roofed barn on Crowe's property after Andrew's murder, where it was found by boys just before Lizzie's trial finished in 1893. Therefore, the very old hatchet shown at the trial, (the handleless hatchet) was either a red herring or completely coincidental.

[Aamartin]

The whole idea that the killer 'straddled' Abby is just very sickeningly brutal to me. How a person could sit astride another person and reign such hatred filled blows on them is surreal to me.... But that may also be an explanation for the location of the wounds.

[Curryong]

Yes, Anthony, it is horrible to contemplate. Cold, almost maniacal, fury and indicative of a deep and profound hatred of the victim!

[MysteryReader]

Thanks guys.

Sorry, Curyong! I only have one book at the moment and it's "Lizzie Didn't Do It!" by William Masterton, pg. 161-162.

Did anyone test the hatchet that the boys found? I'm not familiar with it but I'll look at the thread, thanks!

[Curryong]

It doesn't matter about the lack of books. I haven't got many on the case, either. I've read a lot of interesting stuff on the different threads. And I'm certainly no expert!!

The Crowe's Barn hatchet was never tested. I think the Fall River police were embarrassed when it was found, as it showed their original search of neighbouring properties after the murders hadn't exactly been overly thorough!
Anyway, a carpenter claimed it, saying he had been up on the roof of the Crowe's barn at around that time. The trial was almost over and I think the police were thankful to allow him to claim it.

[MysteryReader]

It doesn't matter about the lack of books. I haven't got many on the case, either. I've read a lot of interesting stuff on the different threads. And I'm certainly no expert!!

The Crowe's Barn hatchet was never tested. I think the Fall River police were embarrassed when it was found, as it showed their original search of neighbouring properties after the murders hadn't exactly been overly thorough!
Anyway, a carpenter claimed it, saying he had been up on the roof of the Crowe's barn at around that time. The trial was almost over and I think the police were thankful to allow him to claim it.

No surprise there regarding the police- it's that way now, too.

[Aamartin]

the books are nice to have-- but almost all of them offer a theory. I am glad I have them and re-read them often-- but the best thing to do if you are willing to buy books-- is save up and watch Ebay for Rebello's book.

[MysteryReader]

Of course! But y'all there was one for sale for $150. Didn't y'all see it? I posted on it under Stay for Tea. The guy was selling his collection.

[Curryong]

It wouldn't be any good to me! It would cost me half that again in postal costs, LOL.

[MysteryReader]

Considering what it's selling for on Amazon or Ebay (if you can find a copy), that's a steal. Didn't realize that the book rate was that much, either.

[twinsrwe]

I agree, MysteryReader!

[MysteryReader]

It'd be roughly $80.50 so that with what he's selling it for would still be a steal.

[Curryong]

Wonder why he was selling his collection? Getting too much for him. Doesn't care about Lizzie any more. Needs some space. Girlfriend/ wife objects to Lizzie. All of the above!?

[MysteryReader]

Maybe. I am already tired of Lizzie but someone is letting me borrow a couple of books so we'll see. There isn't any new information... oh well, maybe I'm just thinking about my upcoming trip.

[Curryong]

Yes, have your lovely trip, which I bet you're looking forward to, and come back refreshed.

[debbiediablo]

I think it's possible that the flap injury caused Abby to turn and slump away from the killer which would have allowed someone shorter to strike the crown of her head.

[Curryong]

There was speculation on other threads, wasn't there, that she may have been leaning over the side of the bed (perhaps smoothing it down?) when she was attacked?

[Franz]

I
...
I am a total sugar for the theory that ...

Curryong, does this mean: I totally agree?

Thanks

[Curryong]

Absolutely and wholeheartedly, Franz.

[irina]

Short women tend to raise up on their toes when they want to swing an axe or hatchet down hard. I'm not saying it's a scientific fact but I have seen it a lot since I live where people camp, cut their own wood, etc. Also after the first blow the victim probably at least ducks, if he/she is not in the act of falling downward.

I'm taller than many men but I think I rise up a bit on my toes if I am splitting a really tough piece of firewood. Men also partially do this if it's tough or large wood. In this case it is to get maximum gravity/power on the downswing. I have no idea if this is a learned thing or if it is a natural human inclination.

[Curryong]

One of the ladies attending, was it Mrs Churchill, on that Thursday morning noted that the blouse component of Lizzie's gown was loosened? It didn't register with anyone at the time and they may have thought she had loosened it herself if she felt faint. However, she said herself that she didn't feel faint, and it has been speculated since that Lizzie's raised arms as she held the hatchet in an upwards motion eleven times (perhaps on tippy toes as you have suggested, irina,) may have dislodged the blouse from the waistband. (Lizzie liked her clothing sculpted (tight-fitting) and well-tailored and didn't usually wear her clothing loose.)

[irina]

I have heard that before about her blouse being pulled out at the waist. Victoria Lincoln made a big deal out of it also. On the other hand it seems a number of the women were concerned Lizzie would faint and wanted to loosen her clothes. Or maybe she reached UP (on tippy toes) in the pear tree to get the pears she ate in the barn?

[Curryong]

Yes, Alice wanted to loosen her clothes upon which Lizzie snapped 'My clothes ARE loose!' and 'I don't feel faint'. According to Mrs Churchill's testimony. Smile
There are actually a number of interesting threads that discuss Lizzie's loose dress that day. I must go over them again. Remarkable that Lizzie ate a number of sticky pears and then went looking for tin and iron in a dusty barn, yet her hands at the end remained white and sparkly clean! Smile.

[irina]

There was water in the barn for handwashing, which Bridget used for the windows. Pears also vary is juiciness, size, etc. It has been remarked many times that people ate a lot of pears that day which has made me wonder if they weren't fairly small. If they were they might not have been as juicy as the much larger pears we are used to today.

[Curryong]

Of course. IF she was in the barn she could wash her hands. Smile There was some sort of odd well-house arrangement too, in the back garden but that had apparently been locked up for some time.
Pears you buy nowadays don't seem to be terribly juicy, actually. They may be forced before their time. You are right. Smaller pears could have been around then. The family certainly seemed to eat a lot of them, but I think they must have been quite juicy, ripened by the hot sun of that summer. After his journey Uncle Morse certainly enjoyed a few!