Fantastic Four Theory Synopsis: Emma, Lizzie, Bridget, JVM

[Curiousmind2014]

Hey everyone! I recently got into understanding the Borden murder mystery. Threads posted by all of you were really helpful in understanding this case and shortlisting probable suspects. I am glad to come across people who are evaluating this case with a logical reasoning.

After reading about this case from many sources, I would like to propose my conjecture on this case. I have not visited the house prior to this posting nor have relied on some movies which do not portray facts accurately. I am not relying on any seances performed by psychics as most of them have come up with differing conclusions. However, I would like to place a high likelihood of molestation and incest to have taken place in the house given the nature of attacks and consensus of psychics on the same.

My proposed theory is as follows:

A. Fantastic Four Theory: In retrospection, given the way the case has unfolded, I am inclined to believe it is a well planned out murder than an impromptu act of cruelty. I believe four people were aware of it partially or completely are Lizzie, Emma, Uncle JVM and Bridget. I am leaning towards possibility of the murder being committed by someone hired to do the same. My theory positions Uncle JVM and Emma as the key planners with complete awareness of what was to unfold, whereas Lizzie and Bridget were partially aware of it.

B. Assumed Personalities:

1. Lizzie: Short-sighted, mercurial, liar, materialistic, self centered.
2. Emma: Composed, planner, private, high tolerance capacity, Loyal
3. Uncle JVM: Miser, barbaric, planner, caring, social
4. Bridget: high tolerance capacity, righteous, caring

C. Motivations:

1. Lizzie: Inheritance, freedom, better life-style, end to parental torment and abuse
2. Emma: Inheritance, freedom, a new life, end to parental torment and abuse.
3. Uncle JVM: Share in inheritance, Helping out nieces, possible business benefits.
4. Bridget: Share in inheritance, a new life, end to employer torment and abuse.

D. Hypothetical Timeline & Events

1. Perfect Alibi - Emma: Emma decides to make a rare trip to Fairhaven. However, she mentions to Lizzie and Bridget the gravity of actions which might be undertaken. Lizzie and Bridget agree to comply with her plans, however are told that they will learn more about it when the time is right.

2. Perfect Alibi - Lizzie: Emma tells Lizzie to visit Marion while she heads to Fairhaven in order to protect Lizzie; thereby providing a perfect Alibi for her dear sister. Bridget is aware of it and assumes Lizzie wont be around.

August 4, 1892:

3. The last deliberation: Uncle JVM uses the invitation from Andrew to try one last time to convince Andrew on business and on a personal front on behalf of Emma & Lizzie.
4. Whimsical Return: Lizzie senses there is something bad that will happen to her family and shares that with her friend Alice. She leaves Marion and arrives home late at night. Apparently, she never sees Andrew or Uncle JVM that night or the next morning before the murder.

5. Early risers: After the discussion with Andrew on the previous night, Uncle JVM gains clarity on both fronts. He has decided Abby and Andrew have to die for the girls to get a life beyond influences of an evil & authoritative father and unwanted step-mother. I want to believe Uncle JVM probably had his business interests in mind. However, I do not know if we have enough of facts to support the same. Uncle JVM informs Bridget about his discussions with Emma and tells Bridget to adhere to his plans. Bridget readily agrees.

6. Perfect Alibi - Uncle JVM: Uncle JVM leaves the house and communicates with the murderer to execute his plans to kill Andrew and Abby. He diligently notes down travel time, modes of travel and a visit to his niece; unaware that Lizzie is back home.

7. Surprise Surprise: Bridget is surprised to see Lizzie. She informs Lizzie about what Uncle JVM has told her to do. Lizzie is not sure how to deal with the situation, decides to stay out of the house on a hot day to create her Alibi.

8. Abby's Murder: Bridget leaves the side door or the cellar door open, while creating her perfect Alibi. This allows the hired killer to get in the house. The murderer executes the plan. I so want to believe someone stood right next to the murderer ordering him to keep whacking the skull with the hatchet. However, this means one or more of the Fantastic Four who hated everything happening to the girls and in the house was present during the murder. Bridget hears a body hit the floor while cleaning the windows. She knows Abby is killed.

9. Lizzie's delight: Lizzie remembers the gravity of actions that Emma had mentioned which may take place. She is curious to see what happened with Abby. She enters the house; Bridget notices it. Lizzie goes upstairs, and Bridget follows her. Bridget tells her it is not a good idea to do so. However, Lizzie cant help her curiosity. She notices Abby on the floor and is extremely happy to find her dead. Lizzie in her delight does not realize how her father might react to what has happened.

10. Andrew Borden Enters: Bridget notices Andrew trying to open the front door. She requests Lizzie to get out of the guest room in order to protect Lizzie. Bridget is now scared. She fumbles with the keys in trying to open the door, while keeping an eye to make sure Lizzie is out of the room. Lizzie giggles watching Bridget all scared. Bridget swears at the immaturity of Lizzie to understand the gravity of the situation.

11. Where is my wife?: Andrew asks Lizzie and Bridget about the whereabouts of Abby assuming she should be home. Lizzie and Bridget freeze not knowing what to say. Lizzie sneaks in a lie saying she got a note to visit a sick friend. Bridget remembers that. Lizzie does not understand the gravity of the situation, and suggests to Bridget that she should now celebrate and go to the sale at a local mall/store, whereas Lizzie plans for a fishing trip next week. Lizzie is unaware that this would not be the only murder. She loves her father (this is validated in retrospection as she visits his grave regularly and leaves behind $500 for perpetual maintenance of his grave) and does not think her sister Emma would plan on killing him. Bridget goes to her room, trying to process what has happened and building up a perfect Alibi for herself ( I am keen to know if Bridget had to go pass the Guest room to go to her room).

12. Sweet Green Pears: Lizzie grabs some pears and goes to the Barn to search for some fishing equipment. For some reason she decides to return back into the house. Maybe she is curious to know if her father found out about Abby's death.

13. Daddy's Girl: Lizzie enters the sitting room as she is very much surprised to see her father killed. She was not expecting it. Her love for her father, results in an emotional outburst. She calls for Bridget assuming she might know much about it.

14. The known unfolds: The most well documented part of the case unfolds. Lizzie assumes she has a perfect Alibi. It is too late before she realizes its far from a perfect Alibi.

15. Fantastic Four unite: After a long hard day, four key participants unite. Alice is not welcomed but Lizzie wants to have her around. However, they manage to get Alice out of the house to get some dinner. Uncle JVM and Emma try to make Lizzie understand the gravity of the situation. Lizzie realizes she can be in trouble, and gets into a state of stress and anxiety. The local doctor starts giving her doses of morphine to suppress her anxiety.

16. Legal Advice: Jennings is requested to make a visit to see the Borden sisters in presence on Uncle JVM. As smart as Jennings was, he gets a hint that there are flaws in this murder which may get his client in trouble. He trains them to narrate a story consistent with the facts already known to the cops, but toned rightly to avoid any trouble.

17. Inheritance: Emma inherits it all. She is advised by Jennings that her sister might get into trouble. Emma, a protective sister, is advised to invest into the best of lawyers including Mr. Robinson, a former Governor/Mayor to bear an influence on the outcome. Emma readily agrees to do so.

18. Inquest unfolds, and so does inconsistencies: Lizzie's anxiety is addressed using morphine dosage, however, that can't help her camouflage inconsistencies between her initial version of the story and Jennings version of the story. Her anxiety increases, she burns the dress, escalating suspicion among the cops. Lizzie is charged for a double murder.

19. The Trial tells the truth: Trial begins in 1893. Lizzie is trained to hide her emotions and portray a persona of a traditional Victorian-era woman. Carelessness of the cops weaken the prosecutors case as interrogations from the inquest cannot be used during the trial. Fantastic four are well trained to keep their answers concise and precise. And never to give away anything more than what is being asked for. The truth prevails. Lizzie is acquitted as she herself never committed the murder. However, I am not sure if the court ever considered it to be a team plan.

20. New life: Lizzie and Emma start a new life at Maplecroft on the Hill. What kept them together remains a mystery. However, it can be the feeling of only remaining family or an extreme possibility of sisters involved in a sexual relationship with each other. I want to believe Emma yearned for a family in retrospection given that she ends up living with friends and family for the rest of her life. Whereas Lizzie loved the fact she finally had the money to live a life she wanted to.

21. Family disintegrates: Lizzie's independence, excesses and very much not acceptable associations with the theater group triggers Emma to move out. At times, it is difficult to guess whether disassociation was due to differences or to start a new life without presence of any association with the past; especially the murders.

[Curryong]

Glad you have decided to post with us, curiousmind2014. The more posters with varying viewpoints the better!

Could I just say that you have obviously thought your theory out. Great! Just a few points, however.
Can I just ask, under your heading 'Motivations,' for Bridget you have stated that she joined the plan because of 'employer torment and abuse'. What was the abuse and torment Bridget suffered?

Some of your theory seems to hang on Uncle John and Bridget not knowing that Lizzie was in residence at No 92.
Lizzie certainly stayed in her room a lot, according to her own testimony. She was certainly at home when her parents were ill on the Tuesday night as she heard them vomiting and asked if she could be of any assistance.

Lizzie had gone away accompanying her sister on part of her journey to Fairhaven. She spent two days at a boarding house with friends the Pooles in New Bedford, and about one day with her friends at Marian. She then returned to Fall River, at the beginning of August.

John Morse also knew she was at home. He gave evidence at the trial that he had heard her come home (from her friend Alice Russell's house nearby, in Fall River) on Wednesday evening.
Testimony of John Vinnicum Morse, Page 129.

Q. Won't you describe what you heard before you went to bed?
A. I heard someone come up to the front door, open it, went in, went upstairs, went into Lizzie's room, shut the door.

That person was certainly Lizzie. Couldn't have been Bridget. Bridget didn't have a key to the front door, always used the side door, and her room on the third floor was only accessed from the back stairs. You couldn't get to it from the front. (By the way, there is a very handy thread called 'blueprints of the house' on the threads which shows the house's layout.)

Lizzie in fact confirmed that she had come in at about 9pm Wednesday from Alice Russell's house, in her Inquest testimony, also that she had gone straight upstairs and did not say goodnight to her parents and uncle.

Under 'Surprise, Surprise' you have Bridget surprised to see Lizzie after Abby's murder. Why would she be surprised? She had seen her that morning at 9am, Thursday, sitting at the breakfast table, before she (Bridget) had gone out to vomit under the pear trees.

Under 'Daddy's Girl' you state that Lizzie had an 'emotional outburst'. When? Everyone from Mrs Churchill and Alice to the interviewing police on that Thursday noted how calm she was. Indeed that was one of the things that drew police suspicion to her.

I could go on and on but I'm sure you agree that that is more than enough to be going on with!

[Curiousmind2014]

Hey Curryong,

Thanks for your inputs and providing clarity to me on my assumptions. I definitely accept that I hadn't read that through JVM's Testimony. Also, I am not as aware as many of y'all are on the details of the murder case. Which is why I stuck to painting broader strokes. However, I feel fairly convinced that it wasn't a one person's plan; it involved more than one to execute this plan. Also, it was pre-planned and not an impromptu act of cruelty.

My theory does not revolve around Lizzie coming home unnoticed. My theory revolves around the murders being a joint effort than attributed to a single person. Maybe Lizzie was made aware of her role in the morning by Bridget after Uncle JVM was aware that she is back home. I will read the blueprints to get a better understanding of the house layout.

As far as Bridget noticing Lizzie is concerned, I meant she noticed her in the morning before the murder and told Lizzie about Uncle JVM & Emma's plan. I am sorry if it was not stated rightly in my post. Under Daddy's Girl, I believe she had an emotional outburst initially when she shouted out loud that Father is being hurt/killed. However, later she started realizing this could all be a part of the plan she was not aware of and decided to go along with it.

As far as Bridget's suffering is concerned, I read in some posts that she had informed the Bordens that she won't be able to work there anymore a few times during her tenure as a maid. However, the Bordens managed to lure her monetarily or in some other form to continue as their maid. Being an immigrant employee with minimal resources, I assume it takes a lot of strength and courage to resign from a job without another one available the very next day. There must be something happening with her or others around the house that took her to a point wherein she was ready to let all go by resigning from the job.

I would appreciate if you can point out at inconsistencies in my theory on a granular and a macro level. I am keen to learn more about fallacies in my theory if any :)

[Franz]

Hello Curiousmind2014, welcome to the forum.

I agree with you that "it was pre-planned and not an impromptu act of cruelty."

[Franz]

Curiousmmind2014, only a couple of questions for the moment.

1. You said: "My theory positions Uncle JVM and Emma as the key planners." According to you, who was the very person who said to another: "Let's kill them."?

2. Who personnally hired the killer? Emma or Uncle John?

(P.S.: Andrew was not killed in the parlor, but in the sitting room.)

[Curiousmind2014]

Hi Franz,

Thanks for the correction in regards to the site of killing for Andrew Borden.

As far as your questions are concerned, I definitely am providing an educated guess here based on facts I am aware of. I would like to believe Emma & Uncle JVM had formulated possible outcomes of Uncle JVM's deliberation with Andrew. They would have decided that if the outcome is not favorable to the girls and Uncle JVM, Andrew and Abby have to die.

I want to believe Uncle JVM hired a killer who might have been a friend from Butchering days. However, I just can't assume that.

[PossumPie]

The problem is that it is virtually impossible to get someone to keep their mouth shut their whole lives about a murder. Two people, keeping their mouths shut...virtually unheard of. More than two people not telling anyone....A fairy tale.

[Franz]

The problem is that it is virtually impossible to get someone to keep their mouth shut their whole lives about a murder. Two people, keeping their mouths shut...virtually unheard of. More than two people not telling anyone....A fairy tale.

Professional killers would, I think. It's of their professionality.

P.S.(I): And If we considere the Curriculum Vitae of Morse: a butcher, a horse dealer, a farmer. Would it be so surprising if he had some contact with, how to say... Les Misérables...?

P.S. (II): And if we consider the wounds received by the two victims, for me the author is more probablly a professional killer than Lizzie, who might have never used a hatchet or an axe in her life.

[Franz]

The problem is that it is virtually impossible to get someone to keep their mouth shut their whole lives about a murder. Two people, keeping their mouths shut...virtually unheard of. More than two people not telling anyone....A fairy tale.

PossumPie, do you mean that any crime in which two or more persons, professional killers or not, were involved must finish with the truth being discovered, because at least one involved person absolutely can't keep mouth shut? If so, all the unsolved cases in the human hisotry have to have been accomplished by a unique person. Are you saying to us this?

[Aamartin]

While I can believe Emma more capable of a cold blooded plan-- it's Bridget that especially strikes me as one who would not be able to keep quiet about it--even if she was in on it.

[MysteryReader]

Bridget couldn't keep quiet unless she was paid off by one or both the sisters.

[Aamartin]

Bridget couldn't keep quiet unless she was paid off by one or both the sisters.

Even then-- I don't think she would have been enticed by money.

[Curryong]

The trouble is, for a plan/plot/conspiracy of this kind to have worked requires a huge degree of unspoken trust between the members.
While I can certainly believe that Lizzie and Emma would keep faith with each other and this would probably hold true with Uncle John, (even though, he was quite a talker apparently, when he got going) what about Bridget? The ties of loyalty would be definitely getting thinner there!
What would prevent her from going back to Britain with her payout and telling all to her parents, a sibling or two? It's all very well saying that a group of people could plan and execute (no pun intended) such a plan, you have also got to factor in the aftermath.
Also, I'm sorry Curiousmind2014, I'm having trouble with Bridget's motive. I'd have to trawl through my notes, but Bridget was no friendless immigrant, at a loss in a new country.
She had a cousin living in Fall River, she had friends, one of whom she went out with on the Wednesday evening, as she told the police. She had jobs before, one of them in Newport R.I.. She hadn't just stepped off the boat.

I posted on another thread a while ago, (have to look it up) a statement Bridget made later in life about Abby telling her, when she was homesick for Ireland, that she (Abby) would be sorry and feel lonely if Bridget left. Everything I've read speaks to there being a bond between Bridget and Abby, not Bridget hating Abby so much that she would connive at her murder. Since when, too, has putting up a maid's wages, (which Abby and Andrew did,) been considered a form of abuse?

Bridget left no 92 to go and work for the Josiah Hunts almost immediately after the murder. Josiah Hunt had been a Marshall at Fall River and was at the time of the murders Prison chief at the prison at New Bedford. The family actually lived on the premises! Curious behaviour for one so recently up to her neck in murder! You would think she would at least wait around for the pay-off!

(In fact, as a vital prosecution witness it's quite clear that the authorities considered it important that Bridget remain in the Fall River area (she had to post bail) under the eye of someone trustworthy, because they didn't want her changing her evidence as she may have done (might have been coerced, bribed, into doing) had she remained in Emma's employment. As far as is known she never saw the Borden sisters again.

There doesn't actually appear to have been that much of a bond between Bridget and the Borden sisters, although she didn't bear them any ill-will. Bridget gave some snippets of evidence, by the way, at the Inquest, Prelim and Trial, that was actually quite anti-Lizzie, contradicting Lizzie's location at different points that day, etc. (It's quite helpful to put copies of Lizzie's Inquest testimony and Bridget's testimony together side by side and see where they differ.)

Bridget also told the police that Lizzie talking to her about dress sales as she was ironing was the first time Lizzie had done such a thing. Emma had given her a few tips on sales etc before, but Lizzie, never. The two sisters couldn't even be bothered to call Bridget by her proper name, just 'Maggie' as that had been the name of a former maid. Andrew and Abby called her by her name.

Sorry to be so negative about your theory Curiousmind2014. Hope you forgive me and continue posting, with your views!

[Franz]

Yes Curryong, me too I think the involvement of Bridget is questionable.

[Curryong]

Yes, Franz, she would be the weak link in any murder conspiracy. As you know, I have my well-known views, but I do think that of the four Curiousmind has pointed to, Lizzie and Emma would have the strength of mind (and money, once it was inherited) to plot to kill. However they felt about each other after 1905 the bonds were strong when they were needed.
The trouble is, that although I believe that Emma probably knew inwardly that her sister was capable of murder (and I know you don't, Franz) that's very different from plotting it, discussing it, and holding your nerve and your silence while a beloved sister sits in jail accused of murder.

If the sisters got a hitman (from where, if they didn't involve their uncle: can't see either of them trawling the bars of Boston or New York for a likely candidate) then you still have the problem of that person (even if paid-off) keeping silent for the rest of his life.

[Curiousmind2014]

Hey Possum, Franz & Aamartin,

@Possum:

Firstly, people involved in committing such murders definitely are either Fiendish or cornered enough that they have no way out unless they took such a cruel step. Keeping such a group of people away from spilling beans for the rest of their lives is difficult. However, I believe things are different when the crime committed is a murder, than anything else.

If one had to believe the Fantastic Four Theory is probably what had happened, I believe anyone involved had more to lose than to gain from spilling the beans keeping in mind that the case involved double murders and had lots of media attention even after Lizzie was acquitted. Following is my analysis of what each one had to gain and lose.

1. Lizzie : Gains - Coming out clean if not involved. Loss - - If involved, she is convicted as a murderer, loses all the comforts and is disgraced for life and beyond.
2. Emma : Gains - None. Loss - - If involved, she is convicted as a murderer, loses her new freedom and is disgraced for life and beyond.
3. Uncle JVM : Gains - None. Loss - - If involved, he is convicted as a murderer, loses social prestige and is disgraced for life and beyond.
4. Bridget : Gains - None. Loss - - If involved, she is convicted as a murderer, loses her new life of a happily married woman and not a maid.
5. Murderer : Gains - None. Loss - - If involved, he is convicted as a murderer, and probably hanged till death.
6. Jennings : Gains - None. Loss - - Losing his reputation as a lawyer after not being able to keep client's interest confidential.

Of course the only way anyone above might have spilled the beans would be if they felt guilty about their deeds. However, as far as I am aware, none of them ever mentioned the case, or talked to media in regards to it since Lizzie was acquitted.

I believe Lizzie & Emma paid everyone on their team handsomely. Keeping in mind ex-Mayor/Governor Mr. Robinson's involvement in the case, he was handsomely paid $25,000 (equivalent to $400,000 today) to be a part of the defense team. We can only guess how much Jennings got paid for fighting the case. I wonder if anyone has details on financial net worth of all the above mentioned people when they died. However, this is where it gets interesting as far as Lizzie is concerned.

Andrew Borden's net worth back in 1892 was estimated to be about $500,000 (equivalent of $8,000,000 today). Let me play a devil's advocate, and believe in the popular theory that Lizzie Borden did it and was acquitted for the same. Let us assume the cost of fighting a case was approximately $50,000 (equi. to $800,000 today). Lizzie and Emma bought Maplecroft for approximately $50,000 (equi. to $800,000 today). Lizzie and Emma are now left with $200,000 in personal net worth. I am assuming that they never had life insurances back then. Also, I am implying that they sold their 92 second street house for free. As far as I understand, this money was not all cash. Most of it was invested in local businesses in Fall river when it witnessed a great textile boom. I could not dig into financial data between 1892-1902. However, if performance of the Dow Jones Industrial index is to be considered, it was up approximately 200% from 1903 to the end of 1926. Therefore for simplistic reasons, let us assume Lizzie's net worth must have increased to approximately $600,000 at the time of her death. I believe this is a lower estimate as we are implying she didn't make any money between 1892 to 1903. I believe gains between 1892-1903 can be nullified by her cost of living.

So given that Lizzie's net worth at her time of death most likely could be approximately $600,000; let us look at her will. Lizzie passed on approximately $100,000 to causes and family. I am not sure if I can imply this, but that would be her total net-worth at the time of her death. Also, we have not taken into consideration the valuation of Maplecroft at the time of her death.

Definitely the numbers do not match. Also, Lizzie is not known to have traveled extensively beyond Americas. As per my awareness, she has been to Chicago and the North-east multiple number of times with her friends. Of course one can justify her inclination towards luxurious excesses such as throwing parties, dresses and more. However, I personally cannot understand how can a woman spend $500,000 (equivalent to $5-8million now) over 30yrs. Another way of confirming it wasn't Lizzie's whims and fancies that resulted in low net worth at the time of her death is to check what was Emma's net worth of approximately $150,000 at the time of her death.

This is one of the reasons I believe Lizzie and Emma paid off handsomely to Uncle JVM, Bridget and the murderer. Maybe it was paid upfront or paid perpetually over time. This makes me believe no one had any reason to spill the beans especially if they were getting paid perpetually at regular intervals. However, I would love to learn about perspectives of everyone on the same.

As far as Bridget is concerned, I believe her personality is not well known. However, her niece/grand niece had mentioned she was a very stern and a reserved woman at least in her old age. I believe Bridget had a job after leaving the Borden's to keep an eye on her than anything else. As far as her having friends and relatives are concerned, I would like to assume they weren't one of those living on the hill in mansions to have provided support and accommodation to Bridget for prolong periods of time.

I believe answers of the fantastic four were tailored to remain concise and precise. It is difficult to believe that 4 vastly different personalities, would have answered in the same style and fashion. They weren't driven emotionally, and no one ever gave out more than asked for other than Lizzie during initial inquest. As far as Uncle JVM is concerned, I read it someplace that he mentioned he took 4 mins from place A to B. Who remembers that?? My answer would be approximately 5 mins. But this guy has calculated time and distance to the very minute!

[Curryong]

We don't have an awful lot of details about Andrew's wealth, except that he left property, shares and bonds and money. It's been estimated that he was worth about $10 million in today's money. He inexplicably didn't leave a Will.

The 2nd St property remained a rental property, re numbered, as part of the sister's portfolio until 1917 when it was sold. The sisters were persuaded to let Abby's sister and her husband have their house for a small sum, after Andrew's death.

With regard to Lizzie's death. Victoria Lincoln notes 'A Private Disgrace' Chapter 41 ( my Kindle copy doesn't give page numbers, sorry!! ) 'At her death Emma was worth $450,000, almost all of which was left to charity'. Unquote.

Both sisters relied on their business manager Mr Cook and lawyer Mr Jennings, both of which were left property, money by Emma and Lizzie. Even then, that didn't prevent Mr Jennings presenting a bill for $10,000 for preparing Lizzie's probate papers. (It's there in the Probate records, eventually reduced to $5,000.) Lizzie's servants, especially her chauffeur, were also treated very generously! Say no more!

This is Victoria Lincoln's take on why Emma left so much more than Lizzie. Again, from 'A Private Disgrace' same chapter as above. 'She would not, like Emma, pull out and reinvest when Fall River's fifty year boom in cotton cloth finally broke and began to fade away'. Unquote.
Vicctoria Lincoln was Fall River born and bred and could remember an elderly Lizzie.

Last Will and Testament of Lizzie Andrew Borden. (If you copy the title it's in the Society Resources.

'Lizzie Borden was worth over $250,000 when she died. She left much to charity.' Unquote.

According to her friend, who was also left money, Helen Leighton, Lizzie was also anonymously active in charitable undertakings when she was alive, helping poor children of Fall River with scholarships etc. Lizzie left her chauffeur a car and money, and there is an anecdotal story that he went into her room when she was dying, holding a blank cheque in his hand! If that is only half true, then I'm surprised Lizzie left as much as she did!

She also had the upkeep of Maplecroft, keeping all the servants happy and occupied, and stayed anonymously in fine hotels on her travels. She loved fashion and jewellery, which she spent thousands on. I think some details are in the ' Lizzie's dresses' thread.
Emma stayed in mourning clothes and lived a very quiet and retired life as a paying guest with various relatives after 1905.

Why would John Morse need paying off? He gave testimony at the trial that he could live independently from his land holdings in the West to never have to work again. His Will is also a matter of public record. For such a fond uncle, he never saw his nieces again after the trial, nor did he leave them any money in his Will. Didn't need to, as he remarked, they were both independently wealthy.

There is a link to Bridget Sullivan's modest Will in the thread 'Life After Murder', about halfway down (currently) Page 2 of the Threads.

[Franz]

Curiousmind2014, just an idea:

You speculated that Emma and Morse planned together the double murder. Ok. Without entering in any detail, this is certainly possible. I just wonder, if so, why didn't they try to create an opportunity in which Emma and Lizzie were both absent from the house in the day the planned murder would occur --- without telling Lizzie nothing? It should not have been difficult.

I certainly can't say nothing for the account of any other people, but if I were Emma or Morse, I would.

Just an idea.

[Curryong]

With regard to Uncle John Morse's memory, there are just individuals with precise and observant skills and photographic memories, who do think like that. I used to know someone with a photographic memory and it was more a hindrance than a help to him. Unless his nephew/niece were in on the plot too, Morse had a good alibi for both murders.

[Franz]

With regard to Uncle John Morse's memory, there are just individuals with precise and observant skills and photographic memories, who do think like that. I used to know someone with a photographic memory and it was more a hindrance than a help to him. Unless his nephew/niece were in on the plot too, Morse had a good alibi for both murders.

Curryong, I certainly agree, some people do have an astonishing photographic memories, why couldn't Morse have it?

But If I were Knowlton, when Morse hadn't any pshycological preparation, I would suddenly have asked him to tell me what his whereabouts were in August 8th, the day before the Inquest hearing, to find out if he had the same excellent perfomance of memory for the morning of August 4th, when the murders occured!

[Curryong]

That's a good idea, Franz

[Franz]

That's a good idea, Franz

Curryong, so maybe you understand better now why I hate Knowlton, our oh so brilliant prosecutor! If today we have so many uncertainties in the Borden case, for most of them we should be grateful to, IMO, him!

[debbiediablo]

The problem is that it is virtually impossible to get someone to keep their mouth shut their whole lives about a murder. Two people, keeping their mouths shut...virtually unheard of. More than two people not telling anyone....A fairy tale.

I totally agree, Possum. A secret is only a secret when only one person knows it. Plus there is absolutely no evidence that Uncle John ever even associated with the sisters after the trial, much less benefited financially. Bridget had no problem finding another job within days after the murders. Also, she (unlike Lizzie) responds exactly like most people who have been scared spitless by a vicious murder in the house – she refused to go upstairs along to look for Abby. There's no indication that she benefited financially either. You've assigned characteristics to each of the four that I find insupportable. How do we know Uncle John was barbaric...or caring, for that matter? Plus, attorneys cannot suborn perjury. Jennings would have lost his license to practice and and become an accessory after the fact if he had literally made up the story for the sisters to tell.

[PossumPie]

Charles Manson was caught b/c Susan Adkins couldn't keep her mouth shut about her and Charlie's involvement with the Tate/LaBianca murders. The (inept) police had no clue, wouldn't have found him, but you cannot involve more than one person in a crime like homicide and expect they won't talk to someone, who will talk to someone else, who will go to the police...

Again, I will put on my tired broken record here and say......This whole thread is weak b/c I see NO EVIDENCE....just a bunch of "what if's" and "This is what I think" To put it very bluntly, It doesn't matter a rat's tail what any of us think, only what the evidence shows. I'm seeing pages and pages of "I think" and very little if any evidence statements.

[Franz]

With regard to Uncle John Morse's memory, there are just individuals with precise and observant skills and photographic memories, who do think like that. I used to know someone with a photographic memory and it was more a hindrance than a help to him. Unless his nephew/niece were in on the plot too, Morse had a good alibi for both murders.

Curryong, just an idea: Morse, when the murders occured in 1892, he was almost 60, being born 1833. Maybe this is a fact to be considered.

[Curryong]

I'm not sure what you mean Franz, that his memory may have deteriorated with the years, or something like that?

[PossumPie]

With regard to Uncle John Morse's memory, there are just individuals with precise and observant skills and photographic memories, who do think like that. I used to know someone with a photographic memory and it was more a hindrance than a help to him. Unless his nephew/niece were in on the plot too, Morse had a good alibi for both murders.

Curryong, just an idea: Morse, when the murders occured in 1892, he was almost 60, being born 1833. Maybe this is a fact to be considered.

I admit, that I agree with you on at least one point Franz, That is was very suspicious that Morse knew every tiny detail of what he did and when on that day...Killer or not, he was a strange bird.

[Franz]

I'm not sure what you mean Franz, that his memory may have deteriorated with the years, or something like that?

Yes, this is what I meant. I notice that when some one says: I know a kild who has the same age of my grandson, he has a marvellous memory... I don't recall an example of a 60-year-old man or woman with a memory like Morse's.

[Franz]

I admit, that I agree with you on at least one point Franz, That is was very suspicious that Morse knew every tiny detail of what he did and when on that day...Killer or not, he was a strange bird.

If this was a fact that "Morse knew every tiny detail of what he did and when on that day", so it do seem strange. And unfortunately for Morse, it seems that it was indeed a fact!

[Curiousmind2014]

The problem is that it is virtually impossible to get someone to keep their mouth shut their whole lives about a murder. Two people, keeping their mouths shut...virtually unheard of. More than two people not telling anyone....A fairy tale.

I totally agree, Possum. A secret is only a secret when only one person knows it. Plus there is absolutely no evidence that Uncle John ever even associated with the sisters after the trial, much less benefited financially. Bridget had no problem finding another job within days after the murders. Also, she (unlike Lizzie) responds exactly like most people who have been scared spitless by a vicious murder in the house – she refused to go upstairs along to look for Abby. There's no indication that she benefited financially either. You've assigned characteristics to each of the four that I find insupportable. How do we know Uncle John was barbaric...or caring, for that matter? Plus, attorneys cannot suborn perjury. Jennings would have lost his license to practice and and become an accessory after the fact if he had literally made up the story for the sisters to tell.

Hey Debbie,

Firstly, I definitely agree that it is impossible for a secret to remain a secret if more than one person knows of it. However, that is a generalized statement which holds true for most scenarios. Consider a scenario where implication of not keeping it a secret is death, whereas implication of keeping it a secret is life if not more wealth. I am sure you will start thinking of it from a different perspective.

Secondly, I proposed this theory as I am not at all convinced that only one person did it. Also, I believe Lizzie was fully aware of Abby getting murdered. However, I am not sure if she was expecting Andrew to be murdered too. Definitely Lizzie's testimonies and her body language did not help her at all in making a strong Alibi. However, many things had to fall in place co-incidentally for Lizzie to have done it all.

1. Abby's Death: Abby was believed to have weighed 200lbs. Bridget in her testimony, claims that she could hear it in her bedroom if someone opened the door to enter the house. Given her proximity to the windows from outside, it would be highly co-incidental for her not to hear a sound as Abby falls on the floor. Unless we assume she was talking to Mrs. Churchill or the maid next door at that very moment which raises more suspicion in my mind.

2. Andrew's Death: I have not visited the house, so I would love to know how to get to Bridget's room. However, again, Bridget claims that she can hear someone enter the house from her room. From my experiences living in a wooden house, I can hear if someone is using a hammer in the basement. If Bridget claims that she did not hear a hatchet/ax strike a human skull not once, not twice, but eleven times; it definitely is questionable to me.

3. Emma's Alibi: I personally have no idea when Emma left for Fairhaven. I also have no idea if she took a train or she went by a horse buggy. I read it someplace that Emma was accompanied by Lizzie on her way to Fairhaven. However, I am not sure about that. Firstly, it was a rare trip. Secondly, Fairhaven is only 6 miles away from South Dartmouth where Uncle Morse supposedly was before coming to Fall River. All of these are breaks in usual behavioral patterns unless you believe in many coincidences. Emma and Uncle Morse corresponded regularly from what I have learnt from other threads. I won't be surprised if she met him before his visit to Fall River. I would have met my uncle if I made a 2-3 week trip to a town next to his if I had a good relationship with him. Also, Emma seems to come across as someone very close to her mother. Maybe Uncle Morse reminds her of her mother. Someone who would talk to Emma about her as Lizzie can't remember what her mother is like and Andrew definitely has moved on and has a second wife.

I am a big believer in factual analysis than creating a story out of my whims and fancies. However, I strongly believe absence of facts/evidence/proof is not a proof of absence. I have assumed characters like all of us have in trying to make sense of this case based on our perceptions. And as far as Jennings or any lawyer is concerned, I am sure they advice their clients to twist their stories especially when it is known the client can be convicted based on available facts. Unfortunately, our legal structure and society rewards a lawyer for winning a case than bringing forth truth and justice.

The truth is that all of us lack enough of data to validate any theories we have put forth; thanks to the investigators/cops who did a lousy job of gathering facts. To conclude, I still believe Lizzie was involved in this conspiracy, along with others. She could not have done it herself as stated above (not because she is a woman!). Whether, all of them were involved or only some of them were involved is something we can keep guessing for the rest of our lives. Whosoever was involved, has taken the truth with them, to their graves.

[Curiousmind2014]

I admit, that I agree with you on at least one point Franz, That is was very suspicious that Morse knew every tiny detail of what he did and when on that day...Killer or not, he was a strange bird.

If this was a fact that "Morse knew every tiny detail of what he did and when on that day", so it do seem strange. And unfortunately for Morse, it seems that it was indeed a fact!

Firstly, the only way I know it takes me precisely 4 minutes to reach a place is using a GPS. I am sure Uncle Morse could not sport a GPS back in those days. His Alibi was something a GPS would spit out if one had to feed all the destinations he planned to visit that day. Uncle Morse definitely raised my suspicion. His Alibi was such as if he knew murders were going to take place and he would need to construct an Alibi to keep him away from suspicion.

Secondly, I wanna assume that life back then was relatively slow paced than the life we live now. Even the cops reported arrival at the Crime scene in denomination of 5mins or 15mins. If he was so precise about everything he planned, why did he not give an exact time of his arrival at the Borden House on August 3, 1892.

He might truly be innocent or guilty. We would never know. But definitely he would be one of the prime suspects if I was to read his Alibi back then instead of Knowlton.

[Franz]

...Killer or not, he was a strange bird.

I was a little surprised while reading your "Killer or not". By saying so you mean that you don't deny the possibility that Morse was guilty? Do I understand well?

Morse was a strange bird, OK. Could I say, therefore:

1. A normal man in good relation with his brother-in law normally would not kill him if his brother-in -law somehow irritated him, but Morse could have planned to murder Andrew (and Abby). There is nothing of strange, because Morse was indeed a strange bird.

2. A normal man normally would not kill someone for the benefits of a third part, without himself gaining nothing, but Morse could have planned to murder Abby and Andrew for his two nieces, without gaining a cent. There is nothing of strange, because Morse was indeed a strange bird.

3. A normal man, if he committed the murder for some one esle, would have been very close to the person for which he committed the crime. Morse killed for the Borden sisters even though he was not very close to them before the murder. There is nothing of strange, because Morse was indeed a strange bird.

4. A normal uncle would pay visit to his niece when she was in jail, especially if she was unfairly suspected and suspected for the crime committed by her uncle. Morse didn't do so. There is nothing of strange, because Morse was indeed a strange bird.

5. A normal uncle, if he committed a murder for the happiness of his nieces, after the affairs he would remain in contact with his nieces, but Morse didn't do so. There is nothing of strange, because Morse was indeed a strange bird.

PossumPie, could I say so?

[Franz]

... I strongly believe absence of facts/evidence/proof is not a proof of absence...

I can't say it better. Thank you Curiousmind2014.

[Franz]

The problem is that it is virtually impossible to get someone to keep their mouth shut their whole lives about a murder. Two people, keeping their mouths shut...virtually unheard of. More than two people not telling anyone....A fairy tale.

I totally agree, Possum. A secret is only a secret when only one person knows it...

I totally disagree. If so, all criminal cases in group must have all been solved! But is it true?

[debbiediablo]

Of course it's not true because a secret only remaining a secret when one person knows it has minimal relationship with the vast generalization that all criminal cases involving more than one person have been solved. When four people know a secret the opportunities to deliberately or accidentally let something slip are increased although perhaps not fourfold depending on the individuals involved and the variables within their lives.

[Curryong]

If a couple of the conspirators are linked by blood and kinship, and plus more or less equally involved in murder, then the bonds may hold. With married couples (Hello Fred and Rosemary West) it can perhaps be so, but of course many of the occasions on which co-killers have turned on each other have been after both have been apprehended.

With all non-political conspiracies each member would be forced to live for the rest of their lives constantly looking over their shoulder, always wondering if the other members are going to give them up for one reason or another, whether the other people's consciences are holding up, etc. Its not a situation anyone would enter into willingly, in my opinion.

[PossumPie]

NO ONE can overgeneralize and say it NEVER happens...I contend that this is one of the most famous cases in American History that went unsolved, and co-conspirators of murder would almost certainly talk. If you are willing to kill, you probably will be willing to commit other crimes. The temptation to plea bargain during questioning "I know who killed the Bordens, and if you give me immunity..." is there. Alcoholism and intoxication also may cause a co-conspirator to brag about the murders. Bragging in prison to fellow inmates, to wives, girlfriends, best friends..... No, the odds of 2,3 or more people all staying silent, not telling anyone, despite the huge notoriety they would get is virtually zero. Of course no one can "Prove" that unsolved cases out there have more than one murderer...if they are unsolved, by definition we don't know how many people were involved.