Fudge Head Abby

[PossumPie]

While my ax isn't always as sharp as it should be, my hatchet is kept honed very very sharp. They point is, a hatchet is used to cut up fine kindling to start the fires in the stoves/fireplaces with. My fireplace gets a crumpled up bit of newspaper, then very fine kindling which I make by softly but firmly chopping the edge of chips I've cut into long thin "straws" You can only do that with a very sharp hatchet. It most certainly can cut hair...If you own a lawn mower, look at the blades sometime, they are not "sharp" compared to a knife, you can't even cut your finger on one BUT they cut through a blade of grass b/c of their speed.

Missed you NancyDrew!!!

[irina]

That's why forums are good. We all have our personal experiences to add. I use twigs for kindling and seldom sharpen my hatchet. I have experience chopping meat scraps but I don't keep the hatchet real sharp.

I have a small thought about what I said about pounding blows v. glancing blows. If a person uses a hatchet (or hammer) correctly, he grasps it by the end of the handle for maximum force on the down swing. The same principle applies to pounding nails with a hammer. People who are not used to this activity~many women for example~grasp hammers and hatchets closer to the head which is less efficient. A nail can be driven that way and things can be chopped but not as efficiently as if the tool was used correctly.

I would think this way of using a hatchet would lead to the type of blows to Abby's head. It would also answer why the furniture wasn't dented with a wider swing. It could also define blood patterns. As many times as Abby was struck it's hard to believe her head wasn't split open. With Andrew I imagine the killer did raise the hatchet overhead and swing down hard. Not so with Abby, in my opinion.

[Curryong]

If the killer was actually seated or kneeling on Abby's back or rear quarters (when she had sunk to the floor, obviously) with the murderer's legs on each side, there wouldn't be a need for huge swings.

[debbiediablo]

Perhaps Andrew was into medieval re enactments!

Lololol...many years ago I had a flat tire, and the guy who stopped to help was coming home from a medieval re-enactment. His son was along which made me less apprehensive but he looked like Hamish straight out of Braveheart. He had that tire changed in record time.



One edit of typo.

[debbiediablo]

If the killer was actually seated or kneeling on Abby's back or rear quarters (when she had sunk to the floor, obviously) with the murderer's legs on each side, there wouldn't be a need for huge swings.

Given Abby's body was moved before the photos there's no way to know for sure, but the appearance of her skirt/apron/whatever being bunched up in the back leads me to think the killer's first blow made the flap wound and perhaps one more blow before she hit the floor on her face causing the bruises. Then the killer struck again and again, to the top of the head from a bending position and then kneeling down onto her body below the buttocks (as opposed to on her back) which would allow for a more powerful swing from the extended arm. But all very quickly...like leaping onto her in a frenzy.

[Curryong]

Have you read the posts on the previous page of this thread from Shelley, debbie? Apparently Shelley worked at the Borden house showing visitors around. They allowed visitors to reenact the murder scene in the guest bedroom in those days (2006). Not sure that they do that now, but what she has to say about the position women adopt for 'attack and chop' as distinct from males is fascinating stuff!

Incidentally, Oscar Pistorius's pathetic attempt at a defence now being completed, the judge now has to decide his fate, doesn't she?. Of course, he's as guilty as sin, but you can never tell what's going to happen with celebrities on trial even without a jury. The defence's plea to have Pistorius mentally assessed went badly for them.

[debbiediablo]

Yes, what I was trying to say is pretty much what Shelley said except for the part about the hair which I wasn't thinking about. Agreed. Women are inclined to go for the hair, maybe because in chick fights there's often hair to grab. To duplicate how the killer sat on Abby would require an Abby-stand in with a fairly good sized butt.

[dalcanton]

I'm amazed that with all that chopping that was done on Abby's head, that her ears remained intact. You'd think they would've been sliced up. What a horrible death. I only hope the first blow killed her.

[debbiediablo]

I'm amazed that with all that chopping that was done on Abby's head, that her ears remained intact. You'd think they would've been sliced up. What a horrible death. I only hope the first blow killed her.

I just got done reading Love Me to Death by Steve Jackson which is the account of William Lee "Cody" Neal who murdered at least three women by telling them he had a "surprise" for them, tying them to a chair, blindfolding them, and then smashing in their heads with a 7 1/2 lb. splitting maul. One of them, Rebecca Holborton, had a possibly defensive response (her hands brought up toward her head) perhaps similar to what we see in the photo of Andrew.

Rebecca Holborton:
Neal fetched his splitting maul and “ambushed Rebecca from behind, unleashing a violent and ferocious attack using the hammer side of the maul,” Tingle said. He brought the weapon down “with such force that it completely caved in the back of her skull,” sending skull fragments into her brain and a two-inch piece of bone flying across the room. Her hands came up on the first blow and were injured when caught by the second blow. The coroner, Tingle said, had been unable to ascertain exactly how many times she had been struck because of the extent of the injuries, but “it was multiple times” with both the blunt and sharp sides of the maul. Holberton fell to the ground, “never to rise again.” Neal wrapped her head in clear plastic to catch the blood and then, after binding her limbs and body with nylon rope, wrapped her in black plastic and placed her against a wall of the apartment.

Candace Walters:
Candace Walters was another story. She’d been struck hard with the sharp edge of the maul twice above her left ear, above her right ear, and again at the base of her neck, along with other more superficial cuts, according to Galloway.

“How long did it take for her to die?” Bachmeyer asked.

“Three to four minutes,” the doctor answered. He knew that because there had been blood in her airways from aspiration and swelling in her lungs that wouldn’t have occurred after death.

Angela Fite:
Angela Fite had also lived for several minutes after being struck six times on the head, neck, and back, Galloway testified.

From: Jackson, Steve (2011-04-01). Love Me To Death (Kindle Locations 2388-2394). Kensington Publishing Corp. Kindle Edition.



The photo is an 8 lb. splitting maul, 1/2 lb. heavier than the murder weapon.

splitting maul.JPG

My point here being that we cannot be sure Abby and Andrew were killed with the first or second blow by a hatchet when a person can live three or four minutes after having their head smashed by a splitting maul which is heavier, more destructive and can be swung with greater force than a hatchet. Much as it sounds incomprehensible, maybe the multiple wounds on both Abby and Andrew were, in part, necessary to actually kill them.

[irina]

I would think the consciousness of the victims would speak to a lot of these questions. In the Bordens' case, with both victims unconsciousness was rendered with a blow or two, as it most certainly was in the cases mentioned above. From the perspective of the killer especially in 1892 unconsciousness would likely have been the deciding factor in considering if the victims were dead enough. I am not sure how common it was for ordinary people to feel for a pulse in those days. I think women liked to hold a mirror under a person's nose to check for vapour. The guy with the splitting maul seemed to enjoy what he was doing so the point of death may not have been that important for him. It may not have been for the Bordens' killer either and maybe Andrew's attacker had to get the heck out of there when Lizzie reentered the house.

The way Abby was killed makes me think the killer didn't have much experience killing with a hatchet, or the cramped quarters hampered his/her activity. I have a feeling the killer had no idea when enough was enough and with Abby may have stopped chopping when the personal rage dissipated.

[Curryong]

Yes, I agree, irina, the cramped quarters between the dressing table and the bed would have made it very difficult for the killer to get a good free swing going, at least initially.

Thirty three inches is an incredibly narrow space especially when you consider that Abby was a rather large lady and would be taking up a good deal of that. Haven't been to the house (though I'd love to go) but the video with a female volunteer showed this quite clearly.

As I believe Lizzie did it, I might factor in here the difficulties of moving easily, bending down etc. wearing a Victorian corset and long skirts. (I'm presuming here she was fully dressed.) All descriptions of her by observers seem to suggest that she did not wear loose clothing but enjoyed the fashionable tight moulding of clothing to the body around the torso. That suggests tight, even savage, lacing.

On an earlier thread, when I first joined, we were discussing how Alice Russell had noted that Lizzie's blouse seemed to be loosened (as if her arms had been lifted high) and I suggested that Lizzie might not have worn corsets on that day. Another poster rightly pointed out that clothing was designed and made for the wearing of corsets and she wouldn't have been able to fit into her clothing if she'd tried that. (Of course she could have worn just an apron over petticoats to kill Abby, but it's something to ponder.)

I do think getting down to close quarters, kneeling either side of Abby's back or behind, occurred after the first couple of blows. Certainly the flap wound occurred in the initial attack. I can't imagine Abby twisting round to glimpse her attacker when she was on the floor. Unconsciousness occurred before then, as the facial bruises show.

I agree too that there wouldn't have been any checking of the victim's pulse etc. I think the initial attack occurred when the killer was in a rage or frenzy and the blows went on until, as you say, the rage dissipated and/or physical exhaustion set in. Only then would it be over.

[PossumPie]

Medically speaking, both Bordens were at the very least rendered unconscious, and most likely killed with the first blow. The fact that neither called out or had defensive wounds points to that. A blow to the head can cause seizure activity and shaking that looks horrible during death, but the victim is not conscious at the time. If the Medula Oblongata or brain-stem was involved, death would have been near-instantaneous.

I've never gotten the fashions of by-gone days. When I am not at work, I am in shorts and a T shirt at home. In winter, Sweatpants and a shirt. I find wearing a suit jacket and tie very uncomfortable. How these folks spent the "casual" hours of their day, in the privacy of their homes wearing such torture devices is beyond me. I never saw either of my grandmothers in anything but dresses, but they were loose cotton dresses and actually looked comfortable. My grandfather did wear a tie if he were going out-even to the store- but not usually at home. I keep picturing the scene from Gone with the wind where they were having their corsets tightened, and think that vanity definitely should be a sin.

[irina]

I always sort of pictured Lizzie's "house dresses" now called "wrappers" as somewhat less fussy and looser than more formal wear. I'm not saying I know but that I always assumed so. Also on the subject of clothes as I recall in the items buried there was a dress AND skirt as well as 2 aprons and one petticoat. For the Lizzie did it folks I think that is worth thinking about. Presumably these garments were taken off Abby's body since no questions were asked except about the extra apron. It was a warm day. Not the warmest, not record breaking, but warm. Abby dressed for comfort it seems. A petticoat, dress, AND skirt? REALLY? It seems the items buried were heavily bloodstained. As we have noted Andrew's coat, reefer, trousers, etc. were not buried. It makes sense Abby's dress would be blood soaked on top and buried but what about her petticoat and skirt? Why were they buried? Surely they weren't even blood stained? Was her apron blood stained? Lots of stuff to consider it seems.

[Curryong]

I believe 'skirt' was interchangeable with petticoat by the 1890's, in the sense of under-skirt. There are drawers on the list and a chemise as well as a dress, but no 'petticoat'. Strangely, no stockings are mentioned, or corsets, though Abby must have been wearing some. No bra, of course, (not yet invented) though I suppose the top of the corsets and boned bodices on the dresses helped keep everything in place!

[irina]

Older women didn't necessarily wear all the corsets did they? I'm thinking of 'Gone With the Wind' where I got the idea the young women, pre-marriage kept all the conventions but after marriage they could let themselves go. Seems like Abby was wearing a lot of clothes for a warm day when she wasn't extremely concerned about her appearance. (Lizzie asking if she would change her dress before she went out & Abby saying what she had on was good enough. Come to think of it, this is another one of those things that seems to point one way or another. If Abby wasn't going out why did Lizzie remember this bit of conversation? Totally out of place if Abby wasn't planning on going out. It's not necessary to go all the way to say this proves the existence of a note, but it does point to Abby planning to go out to do marketing if nothing else.)

[Curryong]

Funny how everyone remembers 'Gone with the Wind' and especially that scene with Mammy when a slender Vivien Leigh got laced up before the ball. A fabulous movie wasn't it, and how did young women breathe with 18 inch waists?

I think all women wore corsets. It was part of the 'uniform' of being a woman in those days! Stockings, too! Dressmakers etc would have been extremely shocked to see any client, even invalids, without either of those items, and, as I said previously, clothes were cut in a certain way to accommodate corsets. Some women, incredibly, even wore them (loosely) when giving birth!

Abby, a plump woman, wouldn't have been so tightly laced as Lizzie by half, but she would still have worn them. No, it's one of those mysteries, like Andrew's Prince Albert and trousers, they and the stockings just were carelessly not listed or were not buried! Probably they were just thrown out, though Mrs Whitehead got some of Abby's clothing, didn't she?

[irina]

My mother-in-law (b. 1893) said tight lacing was why women swooned or "had the vapours", for which smelling salts were used.

[twinsrwe]

Being the Victorian Era, I have a feeling that all women wore corsets, regardless of their age; after all, it would not be lady like to go around the house without having one on. I'm sure the women of this era wouldn't be caught dead without having one on. (No pun intended).

[Curryong]

Well, twinsrwe, Abby actually WAS caught dead while wearing one! Smile.

Lizzie, however, must have been absolutely exhausted after her acts of murder. I believe corsets in those days had whalebone ribs. Not much 'give,' and they certainly did restrict breathing, depending on how tight they were laced, of course.
She would certainly have been panting after her exertions, especially if she was squatting (on Abby's legs).

I'm still intrigued about what she actually wore to do that particular deed. I remember Catbbook's theory of the wipeable raincoat and can't remember whether she said Emma's raincoat was found to be missing. Can anyone remember reading in original documents anything about the police checking Emma's raincoat?

[Curryong]

It's alright, I've found Emma's testimony about the waterproofs.
Both Emma and Abby had what were called 'gossamers', raincoats made of rubber. Abby's was black. Emma stated that she had taken hers with her on holiday, which sounds logical. Lizzie's was American broadcloth, (presumably treated so as to be water-repellent).
So, it looks as if Abby's black gossamer might be the chosen garment. Of course, if Lizzie did wear it, it would have to be so carefully cleaned afterwards. No tiny spot for the police to find, as that would confirm an 'inside job.' I suppose rubber would be easy to clean off, or would it drip? Hmm, interesting, I must think about it!

[twinsrwe]

Well, twinsrwe, Abby actually WAS caught dead while wearing one! Smile. ...

You stinker!

But, you see, Abby would NOT have been caught dead WITHOUT one!

[twinsrwe]

... Lizzie, however, must have been absolutely exhausted after her acts of murder. I believe corsets in those days had whalebone ribs. Not much 'give,' and they certainly did restrict breathing, depending on how tight they were laced, of course.
She would certainly have been panting after her exertions, especially if she was squatting (on Abby's legs). ...

I agree, those corsets would have restricted a lot of things. I don't know if they had whalebone ribs or not, but they sure look as though they are uncomfortable!!!

The following ads are from 1892 advertisements:

Advertisements from 1892 - 61aj39YAKqL__SY300_.jpg

Perfection-Fit-1892-Boulevard-de-L'antique.jpg

[Curryong]

Interesting, twinsrwe, that the illustrations you so kindly posted show a moulded shape over the bosom, so the top of the corset acted as a sort of primitive bra. My goodness, they look rigid and uncomfortable, a bit like a suit of armour! I'm old enough to remember the full elasticated corselettes of the 1950's (not that I ever wore them, too young) and they looked bad enough, but these! Words fail me!

[twinsrwe]

I am also old enough to remember the full elasticated corsets of the 1950's, and, thank God, I didn't have to wear one either! You mentioned in a previous post about Mammy lacing up Scarlett before the ball in Gone With The Wind, well I believe that particular scene was right on, when it came to getting dressed in one of those corsets. Thank God, we have come a long way since then!!! As irina mentioned above, these thing are why women had smelling salts for when they felt faint.

[Catbooks]

As I believe Lizzie did it, I might factor in here the difficulties of moving easily, bending down etc. wearing a Victorian corset and long skirts. (I'm presuming here she was fully dressed.) All descriptions of her by observers seem to suggest that she did not wear loose clothing but enjoyed the fashionable tight moulding of clothing to the body around the torso. That suggests tight, even savage, lacing.

On an earlier thread, when I first joined, we were discussing how Alice Russell had noted that Lizzie's blouse seemed to be loosened (as if her arms had been lifted high) and I suggested that Lizzie might not have worn corsets on that day. Another poster rightly pointed out that clothing was designed and made for the wearing of corsets and she wouldn't have been able to fit into her clothing if she'd tried that. (Of course she could have worn just an apron over petticoats to kill Abby, but it's something to ponder.)

while it's certainly true that clothing was tailored with the woman wearing her corset, or it factored in if the seamstress already had current measurements to work from, not all women wore corsets for just around the house, as in wearing housedresses or wrappers, which were more generously cut, particularly around the waist.

lizzie would most definitely have worn a corset with any dress she wore out in public, but it's entirely likely she wouldn't at home, when no one would see her. it's not like the bordens were social, with people stopping by to call on them regularly (or even irregularly)! in which case, she would have.

a corset would have been required to wear the silk bengaline she gave the police, but we know that isn't the dress she wore that day. in fact, it may have been one of the reasons she gave them that dress. who would wear a dressy (and hot) silk bengaline dress to murder two people with a hatchet, that required wearing a tightly laced corset?