Lizzie's Empty Life

[NancyDrew]

When I look at Lizzie's life, especially prior the murders, it seems very empty.

*She never married, or was courted by anyone. (was this considered very strange? she was a healthy, not bad-looking woman...why didn't any men show an interest in her?

*She never finished high school, so scholarly pursuits weren't her thing either. She didn't do well at teaching Sunday school.

*Careers...I know there weren't many choices for a female in the 19th century. But she (and Emma, for that matter) could have been:

-a nurse
-a doctor's assistant
-a dressmaker...

She liked animals, but so do most folks. And she baked a little...there is a story about her offering home-made cookies to people who worked for her. She enjoyed live theater, but again, if you could afford it, who didn't?

I've mentioned this before, but I cannot even picture what daily life was like for Lizzie prior to inheriting all her father's money. During her inquest testimony, when asked about John Morse's frequency of visits, Lizzie responds at one point "I'm away so much myself." Her words always struck me as pathetic. "I'm away SO MUCH myself."

When was she "away so much herself?" Her grand tour to Europe? That was a one time event, I'm sure. I doubt Andrew Borden was going to lay out the money for any more trips to faraway places. She had relatives, but didn't seem close to them. And her friend Alice Russell was just down the street. So where was Lizzie "away" to so much?

The daily grind of not-much-to-do....how it must have worn on her.

[Miranda]

As a product of the 'Deep South" and therefore basically Victorian thinking, "ladies' pretty much do nothing all their life. many do charity work, but I don't know any " lady" who works for money. they have teas, and throw awesome weddings, but their lives seem to be spent trying not to sweat.

I pity Lizzie too, and for some of the same reasons as you. mostly I think she was weird, not just at the time of the murders, but all her life, and that put off most people.

[PossumPie]

Often at the turn of the century, women who didn't marry by a certain age, who had families with money, lived with their parents their whole lives. She had her Sunday School and charities, but I agree, I think she longed for the wealthy traveling life as evidenced by her trip to Europe she took before the murders. I think her kleptomania shows a deeper neurosis, and other proper ladies seemed to avoid her. "Southern Belles" had plenty to do planning teas and lawn parties, but Lizzie didn't want to have people over to their shamefully plain home. I wonder most what she did with her time...

[NancyDrew]

But Lizzie wasn't living in the Deep South. She was in Massachusetts...the Northeast. Were there "northern belles?"

[Miranda]

I only mentioned the deep south because of the way people think here. a lot of people haven't forgotten they got whooped, and it still stings. made us a little "backward" LOL It was probably even worse for Lizzie, as I understand it, the north east in general was even more straight-laced.

[Aamartin]

I have spent periods of my life where I did not have a job. And while I didn't have Lizzie's financial means, I was not without funds to 'go and do' things. Lizzie lost her entire social outlet in FR. She was literally trapped in that house. Even on a lazy weekend-- I get cagey if I don't get out and see/talk to different people. Some days it is great to have nothing to do-- but not every day. Lizzie couldn't watch marathons of a favorite show on Netflix or surf the web, etc. I imagine her days were very long and that she looked forward to simple things like meals. Like someone in prison. Albeit it a very nice one!

[Franz]

Lizzie read a lot, didn't she?

[snokkums]

I think daddy warbucks might have had something to do with that. Andrew was a bit of a tight wad and I think that maybe he was looking at "Who's going to get ahold of my money? Why are you courting my daughter? For my money?" And I think Lizzie was aware of this. I also think that Lizzie was a bit greedy and wanted the money for herself and her sister. She wasn't going to share with anyone other than her sister.

[Indecisive]

I know this thread is somewhat old, I hope it's ok to post here anyway.

I think that maybe people (myself included) are looking at Lizzie's life from a very 21st century perspective. People generally had slow-paced days. We know Lizzie baked and enjoyed the theater. She probably spent some time sewing or embroidering, socializing (we know she had at least one friend and probably more acquaintances), helping run the household, writing letters and reading. There wasn't much diversity in the way of entertainment. Spending an afternoon or early evening sewing with the other women of your household, maybe also friends, would have been very common. People wouldn't have thought of this type of activity as slow paced or unusually dull.

The fact that Lizzie didn't have a job, even from the small pool of jobs available to women at the time, could just be because there was no need. Lizzie's father may have felt that the girls didn't need to work because he could provide for them and have forbidden it or persuaded them of that. I don't know if he would have felt like this was below his daughters but maybe he would have felt that way as well.

Regarding marriages: I don't think it was unheard of for one daughter, if there was more than one, to remain unmarried. Both sisters being single, though? It seems odd because as it's been pointed out, they weren't extremely poor, they looked fine, they didn't have any obvious flaws that could have prevented a marriage from taking place. It should be noted that at the time, sons and daughters weren't exactly equal. A son, he would inherit his father's belongings and pass them on to his own sons. A daughter's possessions would be hers and her husband's most of the time. Mr. Borden may have disliked this idea and as such raised his daughters to not think very highly of marriage, or he may have put obstacles in the way of any suitors who thought about it. Another option is that, not being pressured to get married, the Borden sisters chose to not do so. Given marital laws of the time and how little rights wives often had, I can't say I blame them.

[Mara]

Another option is that, not being pressured to get married, the Borden sisters chose to not do so. Given marital laws of the time and how little rights wives often had, I can't say I blame them.

Well, I think that probably hits the nail on the head right there. And, too, there is something of a tradition in coastal New England of women above the servant class being a bit more independent. I'm sure you've heard about the "Nantucket spinsters" who were married all right, but their husbands were away on whaling voyages for so long that they had to fend for themselves most of the time and reportedly cherished their liberty. (I love the old yarn about a supposed exchange of letters between a Nantucket couple during a long separation: Letter #1: "Husband, Where did thee put the cradle?" Letter #2 (after no answer to the first one): "Husband, Never mind the cradle. Where did thee put the crib?" Many of them ran shops or carried on some other kind of business to keep themselves comfortable until the ship pulled in after three years or more away. I'm not sure if this mindset would have trickled down to late-19th-century Fall River, but it's a thought. Any Fall River ladies here who could smarten us up about this?

Anyway, the idea of working would probably have been anathema to the Borden sisters, simply because they didn't have to. Nursing was a pretty hard, menial and often just plain old disgusting job, not to mention dangerous. Seamstresses has to crawl around the hems of their clients and cater to them in ways I imagine women of the Borden's means would have found most objectionable. And you're right: Andrew would probably have forbidden it.

I have the feeling Lizzie filled at least some of her days the way many lonely women do today, by visiting shops. And then, there was the farm, to which she seems to have repaired occasionally for R&R. Let's just sit quietly for a moment and imagine Lizzie fishing.

[Indecisive]

Another option is that, not being pressured to get married, the Borden sisters chose to not do so. Given marital laws of the time and how little rights wives often had, I can't say I blame them.

Well, I think that probably hits the nail on the head right there. And, too, there is something of a tradition in coastal New England of women above the servant class being a bit more independent. I'm sure you've heard about the "Nantucket spinsters" who were married all right, but their husbands were away on whaling voyages for so long that they had to fend for themselves most of the time and reportedly cherished their liberty. (I love the old yarn about a supposed exchange of letters between a Nantucket couple during a long separation: Letter #1: "Husband, Where did thee put the cradle?" Letter #2 (after no answer to the first one): "Husband, Never mind the cradle. Where did thee put the crib?" Many of them ran shops or carried on some other kind of business to keep themselves comfortable until the ship pulled in after three years or more away. I'm not sure if this mindset would have trickled down to late-19th-century Fall River, but it's a thought. Any Fall River ladies here who could smarten us up about this?

Anyway, the idea of working would probably have been anathema to the Borden sisters, simply because they didn't have to. Nursing was a pretty hard, menial and often just plain old disgusting job, not to mention dangerous. Seamstresses has to crawl around the hems of their clients and cater to them in ways I imagine women of the Borden's means would have found most objectionable. And you're right: Andrew would probably have forbidden it.

I have the feeling Lizzie filled at least some of her days the way many lonely women do today, by visiting shops. And then, there was the farm, to which she seems to have repaired occasionally for R&R. Let's just sit quietly for a moment and imagine Lizzie fishing.

I don't know about Fall River, but you've made a good point with the Nantucket spinsters thing.

About the jobs, I wasn't so much thinking along the lines of nurse or seamstress, but being a governess or a teacher of some kind (such as piano or sewing teacher or a private tutor to girls). I don't know much about 19th century Fall River and I'm somewhat unclear on what the Bordens' social standing was. Were they considered middle, upper, upper-middle class? But of course, even a job that wasn't considered objectionable could have been forbidden by Andrew if he believed it could make it appear that he couldn't provide for their family well-enough. I've also read some accounts that he was somewhat controlling, and he may not have wanted the girls to have extra money for themselves that wasn't dependent on him.

[SallyG]

Lizzie lived a pretty normal life for a 19th century, unmarried, upper class woman...even though Andrew saw no reason to flaunt his wealth with fancy houses and such. Of course she would not have worked...charity work would have been the most she would have done. Work was for middle/lower class women who needed to work for survival, not having husbands, fathers, or brothers to support them. Lizzie seemed to have been well provided for....she obviously did not LACK anything she needed. She just wanted to live in a better house in the more fashionable part of town. Andrew, as a thrifty Yankee who had worked hard for his wealth, saw no reason for it.

We really don't know if anyone courted Lizzie...OR Emma. Neither may have been interested in being courted...many women really were not interested in marriage...many married out of necessity, not love. At their ages, they were well into spinsterhood. Perhaps a widower may have taken an interest in them...but with their antagonism towards Abby, they may have not wanted to be stepmothers themselves! The eligible bachelors would be too young for them. The period for making a good match was gone...that would have been in their teens and early twenties!

A well off spinster would have what, to us, would be a very dreary existence...but that was the norm for them. She probably was quite busy with her church work and charitable work.

[Curryong]

I agree her life was pretty normal for the average middle class woman of the time living, unmarried, under her father's roof. However, although Emma seems to have been reasonably content with such an existence (she lived quite a simple life after the murders, a small, unheated room at Maplethorpe, for example) I don't think we can discount that Lizzie seemed to feel that she was destined for finer things (mixing with the elite of the township on an equal level, for example.) I'm sure it was Lizzie who wished to buy the fine house on the Hill after her trial, and she ditched much of her Church work too, so I don't think we can say that she was completely content or leading a full life prior to 1892.

[SallyG]

I agree...I think Lizzie was the restless one! I'm sure Lizzie wanted the big house, to travel, and buy the fine things that she probably wanted....she wanted to live in the style that she wished to be accustomed to! Lizzie obviously had expensive taste!

[NancyDrew]

Curryong: How do you know that Lizzie lived in a small, unheated room at her big mansion--which she named "Maplecroft?" It is huge, and I cannot imagine it was unheated.

She had a limousine and chauffeur, and attended plays, went shopping at very expensive stores (and had sticky fingers there too!)

AFter she inherited her money, she wasted NO time in acquiring the kind of life she thought she deserved. She was, however, a lonely woman. Maybe she preferred solitude. Some folks just like it that way.

[Curryong]

It was said that Emma chose to live in a small simple and unseated room at Maplethorpe.

[Curryong]

Whoops, meant unHEATED!

[Curryong]

Actually, the info about Emma's room at Maplecroft was posted in by dubiousmike on Feb 26th 2003 (very early!) He posted on 'Fall River and its Environs' under 'Re Tours. Apparently tours were conducted around Maplethorpe at the time. He and his family used to live at Maplecroft and he stated that 'Emma's room was the only non-servant room without a fireplace' and 'Emma's room was very small. The smallest non-servant bedroom.' (Of course there were recessed radiators and Emma may have had one of those.

[FactFinder]

Actually, the info about Emma's room at Maplecroft was posted in by dubiousmike on Feb 26th 2003 (very early!) He posted on 'Fall River and its Environs' under 'Re Tours. Apparently tours were conducted around Maplethorpe at the time. He and his family used to live at Maplecroft and he stated that 'Emma's room was the only non-servant room without a fireplace' and 'Emma's room was very small. The smallest non-servant bedroom.' (Of course there were recessed radiators and Emma may have had one of those.

Very interesting. Emma chose the smallest room in both homes. What does this say about her personality? She liked small enclosed places, and never lived alone, and preferred to remain as anonymously as possible after the murders.

[Curryong]

Yes, in some ways I find Emma much more enigmatic than Lizzie, but of course we know little about Emma's motivations etc. I believe she got more religious as she got older, or at least more active in Church affairs. She seemed to yearn for obscurity and a private life above everything. I just feel that she and Lizzie irritated each other more and more as the years went on. They were quite different in personality and as middle aged women probably had different needs.

[Mara]

I have the impression that, far from being a lifelong loner, Emma sought out and apparently enjoyed the company of extended family and friends, and actually lived with them in different houses over a long period of time. These relationships are reflected in her Will and of course we have some photos of her with all these people.

Some people like small living spaces, finding them uncomplicated and cozy. I'm like that myself.

[FactFinder]

I have the impression that, far from being a lifelong loner, Emma sought out and apparently enjoyed the company of extended family and friends, and actually lived with them in different houses over a long period of time. These relationships are reflected in her Will and of course we have some photos of her with all these people.

Some people like small living spaces, finding them uncomplicated and cozy. I'm like that myself.

I have never believed Emma was a loner either. She never lived alone, or bought a home of her own. But she does seem to have craved privacy above anything else. Always wanting the small room, living anonymously in a town in New Hampshire at the time of her death. I read a newspaper article somewhere that stated most of the people in the town had no idea that Emma Borden even lived there until her death notice appeared in the papers. I think she liked a quiet, private life, with friends and family surrounding her.

[Catbooks]

Actually, the info about Emma's room at Maplecroft was posted in by dubiousmike on Feb 26th 2003 (very early!) He posted on 'Fall River and its Environs' under 'Re Tours. Apparently tours were conducted around Maplethorpe at the time. He and his family used to live at Maplecroft and he stated that 'Emma's room was the only non-servant room without a fireplace' and 'Emma's room was very small. The smallest non-servant bedroom.' (Of course there were recessed radiators and Emma may have had one of those.

i remembered seeing blueprints of maplecroft and went back to find them to see if i could see another reason for emma choosing to live in the small bedroom. perhaps the location of the room was desirable to her for another reason.

the small room in the second street house had the advantage of privacy, for instance. living in the large room would mean lizzie was always walking through it whenever she wanted in or out of her room, when the small room was hers.

also, the large bedroom shared a wall with abby and andrew's bedroom. if you very much disliked one (or both) of the occupants of the adjoining bedroom, you might well prefer to live in a room as far away from them as possible, without any shared wall. even though the door between the elder borden's bedroom and the large bedroom was kept locked, you might prefer a room where there was no shared door with the bordens.

but back to maplecroft. i can't see any advantage to emma's choosing that room, except it has a closet in it. but, i also can't see any servant's bedrooms, at all, upstairs or down.

upstairs there's lizzie's bedroom over the back porch, which as far as i can see has no closet. (where did she get dressed, and keep her clothes?) then there's the bathroom, then emma's bedroom. then a large hall with the stairway, and then the second floor reception room going across the width of the front of the house.

next to that, and going back to the back of the house is the library, which has french doors leading into the reading room, which does have a fireplace, but none of the other upstairs rooms do, including lizzie's.

i'm assuming privacy-loving emma wouldn't have wanted either the library or reading room as her bedroom, which leaves only lizzie's room and the one emma chose.

another thing, i've read several times that lizzie had two bedrooms - one for summer and one for winter. but i'm only seeing one.

upstairs blueprint:
download/file.php?id=5225&mode=view

downstairs:
download/file.php?id=5224&mode=view

can anyone else see where servants rooms or a second bedroom for lizzie might be?

[Curryong]

Servants' rooms were usually up in the attics, weren't they? Any blueprints of a third floor? I believe I read, stirring in the recesses of my memory somewhere, that Lizzie had an extension built at Maplecroft after Emma's time, somewhere around 1907, which could have accommodated another bedroom for herself on the second floor. When do these blueprints date from?

[Curryong]

NO fireplaces shown upstairs are a bit of a worry as dubiousmike emphasised the point about Emma's room, and I can't see fireplaces being popped in after 1907, too much work! You wouldn't think radiators of the period, however elegant and recessed, would have thrown out that much heat, especially in a room like a library in winter! Wasn't Lizzie a keen reader? No spare bedroom for any visitors either, I'm not talking so much about Lizzie and Emma, although where did Nance O' Neill sleep over? It would be highly unusual for any home of the period (I'm guessing late 1880's) to be built with no fireplaces in the upper stories and only two bedrooms,

[Catbooks]

oh yes, of course, the attic! maybe that's where the servants' rooms are. or even a basement? i've been googling around, but can't find any floor plan of the attic.

ah, i didn't know lizzie had done remodeling and added on to the house. i don't know, but am assuming these two floor plans are during emma's day, solely based on emma's room being identified by name.

yes, this just shows one fireplace upstairs, in the reading room. well, it calls out a mantle, and i assume a fireplace goes with it. i can see two chimneys in a photo i found of maplecroft. the placement of them corresponds to the one in the reading room, and while it doesn't say so on the floor plan, i assume another below it in the kitchen?

the chimney towards the front of the house corresponds to the fireplaces or mantles in the front parlor and entry hall. the library's right above the parlor, so you'd think it too would have a fireplace.

i just read on a site that maplecroft had 6 fireplaces. don't know if that's accurate or not, but counting the assumed ones in the kitchen and library, that still leaves 2 missing. on the third floor?

agreed, it seems too large a house for there to only be two bedrooms. unless the library/reading room/upstairs reception rooms were originally intended as bedrooms?

[Curryong]

You've done a lot of work on this, well done! To be honest, I can't imagine fireplaces in servants' rooms unless the original owner/ builder was extraordinarily considerate. Servants were usually stuck up in attics with minimal comforts!
However, nurseries, (and I'm afraid I'm talking here of layouts in English Victorian houses) were often in attic regions (so the noise of screaming toddlers etc wouldn't penetrate below) with fireplaces, so babies could be bathed in front of a fire in winter. Maybe the original owner had small children and employed a Nannie?

[Catbooks]

turns out you're right, the two other fireplaces weren't in the servants' rooms on the third floor. i was thinking since the chimneys were already there, why not?

the one below the one in the reading room isn't in the kitchen, but the dining room.

the two missing fireplaces were added on by lizzie! it's an external river stone chimney, to the right as you face the house from french street at the back of the house. the top fireplace is in lizzie's room, the bottom is on the porch below, so is an outside fireplace.

i have waaay too many lizzie-related browser tabs open. this is worse than youtube, lol! i've got to get some work done but will be back later.

[Curryong]

Funnily enough though, looking at those blueprints, while Emma's room lacked a fireplace she did have the luxury of an inbuilt closet and her room looks reasonably large. Lizzie's bedroom seems to be long and narrow, oddly shaped.
Isn't there a closet under the back stairs? Although it doesn't look as if there is access there from Lizzie's room (it appears as if it's a part of the reading room, a clue perhaps that it was once a bedroom,) you never know. This could have been where Lizzie kept her clothes. She may have eventually closed it off from the reading room and had a door put through to her bedroom.
Also a gigantic hallway (wasted space) and a balcony- shaped reception area. I think you were right in your previous post and at least two of the rooms, perhaps reading room and library, were once bedrooms. Odd.

[Catbooks]

back for a moment.

yes, that was the first thing i noted when i was looking for other possible reasons emma might have chosen that room - she had a closet and lizzie had none. neither had fireplaces, until lizzie had the chimney added later.

so lizzie had no closet and no fireplace, but a nice view of the back yard, and an oddly shaped room.

it does look like there is a closet under or near the back stairs, and one in the bathroom. oh wait, no i think that other closet is in the reading room. lizzie may have used the one in the bathroom, but then where to put the towels and so on? or she had a wardrobe in her room.

to answer your earlier question, i found the floor plans were drawn between 1992 and 2003, by shelley, who also doesn't think lizzie had any summer and winter bedrooms. she's been to maplecroft, so it seems like she'd know. here's her thread:

viewtopic.php?t=2930

i wonder if this lizzie had two bedrooms thing was started to further the lizzie as a spendthrift brat theory. even maplecroft has been made out to be far grander than it really is. don't get me wrong, i love the house! but it's not a grand house. it's a very nice upper middle class house. probably she and emma could have afforded a grander one.

[Mara]

I live in a house built in 1909. It has no closets in the bedrooms, save a corner in each one, no larger than the width of the narrow board-and-batten doors and even less deep than that. We use wardrobes. I suspect Lizzie's Maplecroft bedroom had a big one. She certainly had the space for it.

[Curryong]

Yes, I think all sorts of myths were perpetrated about Lizzie, both in her lifetime and after it. I'm sure she was over the moon, however, about having virtually two reading areas to herself, unless of course Emma had one of them. Plus they would both have luxuriated in having a bathroom and a decent toilet.
The chimney thing makes perfect sense now. dubiousmike probably didn't realise that Lizzie's bedroom fireplace was a later addition. I agree it's not a grand Gilded Age mansion, just a nice, agreeable, comfortable house.

[irina]

I was looking to tack this comment onto a thread I know is here that asks why Lizzie (and Emma) didn't marry. Can't find that but found this. Back in 2003 this forum had a thread titled Handy & Andy, about Dr. Handy and Andrew. I can't bring this up on a search either. The thread sort of veered off this title and post 27 by Kat has an interesting list of Lizzie's friends.

Citing Rebello, page 64, she lists the women who were to be at Dr. Handy's cottage at Marion where Lizzie was planning to return. Out of 13 women, most were about Lizzie's age, give or take a year or two. Most were teachers at various schools in Fall River. Elizabeth Murray Johnson was a principal. All but one have the title "Miss", as in unmarried. Many of the names like Holmes and Remington are regular names we see in this case so I assume these are at least middle class women.

Now I have a lot of questions. I know Lizzie did some volunteer teaching~Sunday school, etc. Even though Lizzie did not pursue more formal education for herself it is written that she helped some young people to get an education later in her life. She apparently valued education and reading, etc. So, looks like it wouldn't have been scandalous, inappropriate or unpleasant for her (and Emma) to have become teachers? How come so many of her friends were unmarried? I know it could be said that single women socialized with each other because maybe it was maybe even inappropriate to socialize with married couples, but why were so many of them unmarried? Why wasn't Lizzie a teacher like her friends?

I am not trying to suggest anything sensational like lesbianism. I have no idea about New England mores of the time. Even though I am from the west I think there has been a bit of southern influence in the areas where I grew up and spinsterhood was not something to aspire to. In fact there was a bit of disgrace in being an "old maid". Further, in my personal experiences in caring for elderly people, spinsters are the most difficult patients because they are extremely demanding and unyielding~everything has to be done their way no matter what.

So what if anything does this tell us about Lizzie and her social group? What do her friends tell us about Lizzie's personality? Did women shun marriage in Victorian New England? If they weren't married by a certain age, was it too late to marry? Ever? Were there social advantages to being unmarried or was it a negative state? (We could note that Abby was in her thirties when she married Andrew. I am not sure but I had the idea she had to help raise siblings like Mrs. Whitehead. ) Was Lizzie a self-centered control freak who would not have functioned well with the necessary give and take in a marriage?

[Curryong]

This is interesting....


http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog ... ng-single/
http://www.victoriaspast.com/Spinsterho ... rhood.html

I typed in on Google 'Spinsters in 19th century America' and all sorts of interesting sites came up, of which the above is only a sample! However, much of the literature examines the growing professionalism of middle-class women in America, not necessarily Emma and Lizzie's situation. I do agree with some above posters that Andrew's attitude coloured his daughters' lives. Aside from attending church it doesn't seem like he or Abby made any attempt whatsoever to get husbands for 'the girls'.

Yes, Lizzie went to dances in the town with her friends, but neither parent, in an age when much entertaining was done in the home, held parties, musical evenings, dinner parties etc. They seemed to have a very small social circle and weren't interested in going beyond it. (Many beaus in that era were found among sons and nephews of family friends, extended family etc. met at family functions, weddings etc.) Lizzie was confined to mainly church activities and the rare excursions with friends, Emma, who didn't partake much in church functions, even less!

There's been speculation on the forum before that Andrew was VERY suspicious of 'gold-digging' men around his girls. His attitude and social ineptness and disinclination to entertain led to almost certain spinsterhood for his girls, in my opinion. In addition, neither Emma nor Lizzie were academically inclined and weren't encouraged to go to college, so the professions (such as there were in those days) were also barred to them.

It's true that New England women were a hardy and independent bunch. (Many of Lizzie's friends were financially independent in a way Lizzie could never be.)

Lizzie was strong minded and liked her own way, I feel. Remember the 'ugly' epithet attached to her by various townspeople. She may have been known for an uncertain temper, which might have put some males off. However, her mother, Sarah, also had a temper and may have been a bit eccentric, and SHE married! You couldn't say that about meek and mild and colourless Emma, and she remained unwed. I do think Lizzie would have liked a beau followed by marriage. If her parents had been different she might have got them.

[irina]

Thanks for that search, Curryong. I'll ask a computer just about anything but never thought of using that search term.

What I found interesting in the post I cited from 'Handy and Andy' is that of 13 women, all but one or two were teachers~and most were members of Lizzie's church and served on the various committees. Lizzie was friends with Dr, Handy's daughter but on this post it appears this daughter Louisa Holmes Handy was born in 1876 and was therefore 16 years old at the time. She too is listed as a teacher. There was some discussion of this. In America at that time an eighth grade education was frequently all that was needed to start a teaching career. Some districts may have required something more.

I thought deeply about all these friends, all night as I had a stomach upset all night. (I haven't had any mutton soup, green pears or baker's bread recently, but I did make a cherry pie with cherries from my tree.) A number of Lizzie's friends taught at the Nathaniel Borden school. Surely that would have been an acceptable venue for Lizzie and Emma. Also considering many if not most of Lizzie's friends dropping her after the trial, it would make sense that women employed as teachers could be pressured to choose certain moral paths. It still seems odd to me that most of these friends are teachers and not simply unmarried daughters languishing in their parents' homes.

I have wondered if there had been issues with Lizzie having a fellow she wished to marry, only to have Andrew get rid of him for fear he was a fortune hunter. That sort of thing is fairly common in wealthier families and those with wealth must be careful.

[Curryong]

Most extremely wealthy men in the 19th century would have regarded paid employment by their spinster daughters as a personal insult, I'm afraid. I think Andrew may have been one of them, though I do get the feeling that if they had shown any talent as landlords or for investment he would have been delighted. That was something that could be kept within the family circle.

Teaching was one of the very few respectable professions middleclass women could enter in the late 19th century and so it's not really surprising that so many women of Lizzie's circle were teachers. Professional men in Britain and the US, who couldn't afford to have unmarried daughters hanging about at home, were the first to send them to universities and colleges in the late 19th century so they could be financially independent. Louise Handy (if she was 16) may well have been what was called a 'pupil teacher', ie learning and teaching under the superintendance of a senior teacher.

Teaching's a special gift or vocation though, isn't it, and teaching Chinese youth at Sunday School (where Lizzie apparently couldn't keep order) is a bit different to taking it up as a lifetime job. If Emma or Lizzie had begged or pleaded to go into the teaching profession then Andrew may have considered it, but there's no evidence that they ever did.