Premeditated or....

[Curryong]

I know some posters are sure of Lizzie's innocence and/or are keeping an open mind on the matter! I hope you will humour me though, and give your opinion on, IF Lizzie did it, whether you think these murders were premeditated and planned, whether it was all hurried up because of something that occurred earlier, or whether Lizzie just exploded that morning from frustration and anger. Perhaps it was something Abby said or did, or whether Abby was just THERE, being inoffensive and going about her business but the anger within Lizzie just welled up and was too much.

I sway, myself, between Premeditated and Opportunistic.

Under Opportunistic I would place

Lizzie didn't know until Bridget mentioned it that Abby had ordered the windows cleaned that morning, placing Bridget outside.With John and Andrew gone the coast was clear.

Speculative Opportunistic.

Abby said or did something which made Lizzie extremely angry that morning and she exploded. There is no evidence for this, of course.

Uncle John's visit set off alarm bells.

Premeditated

The strange conversation with Alice the night before and her mood at Marion when she visited her friends.

An attempt to get poison (foiled, but nevertheless an attempt) IF the clerk was not mistaken.

There was a hatchet to hand somewhere. I don't believe it was the handless hatchet.
Speculative, did Lizzie buy or pinch a small hatchet for the Marion trip she kept in her room?

[phineas]

The gilt on the hatchet in Abby's wounds indicates a new hatchet, which to me, says purchased (or shoplifted) for the event. It seems to rule out an intruder who carried a hatchet for work as has been proposed. Unless Lizzie was a 19th century seer, her foreshadowing is a little too neat the night before; what are the odds of predicting some ghastly event in under 24 hours? Her mind, to me, was filled with murder and she was unable to stop giving off 'tells' because she was so consumed with planning. I go with premeditated, only awaiting an opportunity for the coast to be clear - John and Andrew leaving. In some way, I think Morse tripped the switch - either because Lizzie thought he might not have a good alibi and could conceivably come under suspicion, because of something in the conversation between he and Andrew that alarmed her, because Morse was just one more element of disgust heaped on top of her contempt for the family. If she planned to kill Abby, I believe Lizzie had to go all the way and kill Andrew; otherwise Lizzie would have been at the Sargent's sale establishing an alibi and waltzed in with a bolt of fabric while Andrew was taking off his shoes. It wouldn't have been the best alibi but could have muddied the timing enough - and her calm demeanor browsing fabric and hailing acquaintances would have been reported to police and who could imagine such a calm murderess?

We have little to go on with Bridget outside washing windows - all we have is Lizzie's account of what she was doing, small housewifely tasks. The idea of a sudden explosion out of nowhere seems to me it would leave Lizzie breathless, disoriented, rushing around, desperately trying to plan to establish an alibi, not calmly moving through the house chuckling at the top of the stairs. No, Abby was the first execution and once begun, the machinery ground forward to Andrew's end. The wait must have just about killed her (ha). I do think she wasn't expecting Morse for lunch and that moved up her timetable - the famous "Oh S**t" moment when Andrew casually inquired was John back yet.

Irina's newspaper article about Bridget contains the gem that Lizzie had never mentioned a sale to her before. That Emma had, but never Lizzie. Anything that deviates from pattern seems significant as these lives were not full of deviation. Emma is conveniently gone, the time will never be better. If she can just get Bridget to that sale....

[irina]

To honestly explore the case one must look at all possibilities as honestly as possible. Therefore it is necessary to work imagination just as hard on Lizzie did it as with an intruder did it.

I say not premeditated. Who would ever premeditate a hatchet/axe murder(s)? Has that EVER been done? That said it does not mean that Lizzie wasn't premeditating murder by poison. I'm also not sure that it could be ruled out that Andrew and Abby could have had a dose of arsenic when they got horribly ill Tuesday night. A problem I would have with this is Lizzie didn't seem to prepare any food nor eat with the family plus Bridget didn't get similarly ill. Her illness Thursday morning seems to clearly be migraine and combing through her testimony she made a comment that she had frequent headaches at that time and headache was her first symptom in the morning. Food poisoning can cause headache but it sounds very much like migraine to me.

Among many arguments against premeditated hatchet murder~especially by a woman~is that is is a messy, horrific, gory act and there isn't much history of women choosing excessively bloody, disfiguring ways to murder.

Considering rage and not premeditation I find the conversation Lizzie reported between her and Abby to have an interesting clue. Lizzie says she asked Abby if she would change her dress before going out and Abby said she didn't plan to as what she had on was good enough. (Complete with Andrew's boots?) While I reject Lizzie killing for pure greed I find it plausible that she became enraged with the thought that Abby would never embarrass the family again. It seems that Lizzie and Emma may have suffered socially from the family's lack of style, so to put it. Perhaps Lizzie had even been previously rejected by a man~or thought she had~ because of this.

If these murders were premeditated, the outcome depended on too much chance. If Abby had finished the guest room before Lizzie arose, where would Abby have been killed? If Lizzie planned to kill that day why not get up early and nail Abby in the guest room right away? Lizzie's end of the house was a good choice for a murder but once Abby was not there things became a lot more difficult. What would have happened if Bridget wasn't washing windows? The window washing seems to have been a sudden inspiration. If Bridget wasn't reasonably expected to be out of the house then Lizzie's only opportunity would have been when Abby was in the guest room and I don't see her making extra effort to make sure this happened. For example she could have been innocently sewing in the guest room from the time Uncle John left or she could have offered to help Abby strip the bed.

Is it possible Lizzie planned to kill her parents while they slept at night and thus had obtained a hatchet? She could fix the locks between her door and theirs for perfect access. Did rage impel her to attack Abby before a more elaborate plan could be worked out? Was Lizzie truly afraid of prowlers at night and did she arm herself with a small hatchet for self defense, but then use it opportunistically on Thursday morning? Possible.

[Curryong]

I believe that the poisoning that Abby went on about to Bowen was due to adulterated food coming into the house, including those cream buns she was so fond of. To be fair, dr Bowen's reassurance to her in the course of their conversation took that line too, as he spoke about there being no other cases in town (due to bad bakers bread.) All the same, whether others were suffering or not, I think that's what it was. Lizzie had failed in her attempt to get poison (if Prussic acid was what she intended to use!

It may have been a combination of premeditation (the talk with Alice, the attempt to get poison etc) and a huge blow-up that morning, over what we don't know. Feelings of hatred may have come to a head. We know that Lizzie was feeling 'down' prior to the murders and that Emma had urged her to get away with her friends. Lizzie felt as if something was hanging over her and expressed feelings of dread. I don't believe that was all play-acting.

During those months/years that I believe Lizzie wished her stepmother dead, it may have been poison that Lizzie fantasised about. However, if something came to a head that morning, and a new hatchet, bought perhaps for a joke for the trip to Marion, was lying about in her room, having not been taken on her day trip, then it may have been snatched during a fit of rage.

[debbiediablo]

What would have happened if Bridget wasn't washing windows? The window washing seems to have been a sudden inspiration. If Bridget wasn't reasonably expected to be out of the house then Lizzie's only opportunity would have been when Abby was in the guest room and I don't see her making extra effort to make sure this happened.

I've entertained the thought that to get Bridget out of the house all Lizzie would've needed to quietly say was, " Miss Russell commented last night on how dirty the windows are," or, "Oh my, Mrs. Borden, I can barely see outside through the dirt. Soon we will be the talk of the neighborhood."

[irina]

I think that is a fascinating thought, Debbie. It's not a fool proof plan but I can sure see it working.

[Catbooks]

I say not premeditated. Who would ever premeditate a hatchet/axe murder(s)? Has that EVER been done? That said it does not mean that Lizzie wasn't premeditating murder by poison. I'm also not sure that it could be ruled out that Andrew and Abby could have had a dose of arsenic when they got horribly ill Tuesday night. A problem I would have with this is Lizzie didn't seem to prepare any food nor eat with the family plus Bridget didn't get similarly ill. Her illness Thursday morning seems to clearly be migraine and combing through her testimony she made a comment that she had frequent headaches at that time and headache was her first symptom in the morning. Food poisoning can cause headache but it sounds very much like migraine to me.

Among many arguments against premeditated hatchet murder~especially by a woman~is that is is a messy, horrific, gory act and there isn't much history of women choosing excessively bloody, disfiguring ways to murder.

interesting. i don't know if anyone's premeditated a murder using a hatchet or not. even if they have, it probably wasn't/isn't a common choice, and certainly not for a woman.

but, if lizzie did try to purchase the prussic acid the day before, she'd already made the decision to murder abby and andrew. i realize there is some question about if the woman was lizzie or not, but i tend to think it was, for a few reasons.

one is that the pharmacy was literally right around the corner from No 92, and yet lizzie claimed she'd not only never stepped foot in it (possible, maybe she hadn't), but also didn't even know about it! i find that impossible to believe. she'd lived there 25 or so years, they hadn't had a carriage and horse for a while so obviously traveled primarily on foot. it was on the way to main street, which she had to have frequented. so, why would she lie about not knowing the druggist was there, if she was innocent?

the other reason is they stepped forward to tell the police about it right away, the next day, if memory serves. it was an unusual event, so they remembered it more clearly than had she come in and bought a plaster or somesuch. i don't buy that it was for publicity, because at that point no one, aside from the police, suspected lizzie. it wouldn't have been much fun to feel you were the one pointing the finger at a respected member of the community committing such a gruesome crime -- and a woman no less, and the daughter! -- and it could have easily backfired and lost them customers. who knows, maybe it did.

so then, where did the hatchet come from in order to execute (pun intended) plan B? had she already purchased or 5-finger-shopped the hatchet, as a backup plan? where, and when? if she got it in marion, she'd been planning this, complete with backup plan, for a while.

i've wondered if the borden's had a new or newish hatchet, because as far as i've found, the hatchets and axes found in the household weren't particularly functional. obviously the handless one wasn't good for anything. the others appear to have been in poor condition, and a hatchet was standard equipment in any household of the time.

Considering rage and not premeditation I find the conversation Lizzie reported between her and Abby to have an interesting clue. Lizzie says she asked Abby if she would change her dress before going out and Abby said she didn't plan to as what she had on was good enough. (Complete with Andrew's boots?) While I reject Lizzie killing for pure greed I find it plausible that she became enraged with the thought that Abby would never embarrass the family again. It seems that Lizzie and Emma may have suffered socially from the family's lack of style, so to put it. Perhaps Lizzie had even been previously rejected by a man~or thought she had~ because of this.

i don't think lizzie would have killed with greed as a sole motivation either. i agree lizzie, and probably emma too, was frequently embarrassed by both abby and andrew, but i can't see abby's unwillingness to change out of her housedress (and/or boots), on the way to visit a sick friend and then pop into the grocers, enough to tip her into a homicidal rage.

If these murders were premeditated, the outcome depended on too much chance. If Abby had finished the guest room before Lizzie arose, where would Abby have been killed? If Lizzie planned to kill that day why not get up early and nail Abby in the guest room right away? Lizzie's end of the house was a good choice for a murder but once Abby was not there things became a lot more difficult. What would have happened if Bridget wasn't washing windows? The window washing seems to have been a sudden inspiration. If Bridget wasn't reasonably expected to be out of the house then Lizzie's only opportunity would have been when Abby was in the guest room and I don't see her making extra effort to make sure this happened. For example she could have been innocently sewing in the guest room from the time Uncle John left or she could have offered to help Abby strip the bed.

well, emma was out of the way, so really all she had to deal with was getting bridget out of the way, and then getting abby alone, and then andrew. uncle john no doubt threw a monkeywrench into her plans, but luckily for lizzie, he'd gone off to visit his niece for the morning. thursdays were bridget's half-days off, so bridget would be out of the picture in the afternoon, or on sunday. it is possible that, as curryong said, lizzie suggested to abby how filthy the windows were, to get bridget out of the house that morning.

it was very unusual for lizzie to have not unlocked the front door in the mornings, and i believe she deliberately left it locked, knowing andrew would use the front door to get in when he came back from his rounds. if for some reason he returned even earlier than he did, it would have bought her some time. then there's that odd laugh from her, at the top of the stairs, when both bridget and andrew discovered the door was locked.

Is it possible Lizzie planned to kill her parents while they slept at night and thus had obtained a hatchet? She could fix the locks between her door and theirs for perfect access. Did rage impel her to attack Abby before a more elaborate plan could be worked out? Was Lizzie truly afraid of prowlers at night and did she arm herself with a small hatchet for self defense, but then use it opportunistically on Thursday morning? Possible.

as i recall, she wouldn't have had any way to get into their room, or for them to get into hers, for that matter. i thought it was locked from both sides, and seem to recall it was also nailed shut? not positive about the last. there was furniture in front of it. i suppose it is possible she was worried for her safety in that neighborhood, and possibly armed herself with a hatchet.

i say a combination of premeditated and opportunistic. planned, but she had to wait for the right moments.