Ostracized...why?

[NancyDrew]

Lizzie enjoyed the support of many women in Fall River, and supposedly some early feminist groups. Why, when she was found NOT GUILTY, did these same women turn on her?

It has always bothered me. I'm sure Lizzie herself found the switch alarming, and unpleasant. But Why did it happen?

[Curryong]

It is a very strange phenomenon isn't it? You see it nowadays with some celebrities, who are built up by Press and public to an extraordinary extent and then just as quickly turned on and attacked.

It's hard to know how far to trust Victoria Lincoln, who in her book seems to infer that most of the folks on 'the Hill' were against Lizzie and she became an object of fascination to neighbourhood children. I suppose there were always locals who believed in Lizzie's guilt, and it has to be said that the lady didn't help her reputation by quickly moving after her acquittal into a large house (Maplecroft.)

Possibly the large amounts of art, books, fine furniture, jewellery etc purchased by Lizzie in the immediate aftermath of the trial may have stuck in the craw of some people as living high on the hog on her murdered father's money.

Her charitable efforts in the town and elsewhere were kept quiet by her of course, so wouldn't have been well known. It was said at the time of her arrest that Lizzie had an 'ugly' temper, and there was a tale in Lincoln's book of her frightening a workman at Maplecroft so much when she lost her temper with him that he fled and never returned.

I guess stories like that added to the legend over the years. Although Lizzie had her friends and supporters in Fall River I suppose some locals felt she had brought an unwanted notoriety to the town

[debbiediablo]

Not too long ago I quoted a passage from Hawthorne that the author used in "Representing Miss Lizzie: Cultural Convictions in the Trial of Lizzie Borden" from the Yale Journal of Law and Humanities. Shortly afterward Irina posted the link. I'm posting it again below for those who want to read all 67 pages; it's both succinct - compared to a book - remarkably well researched and addresses this question (and lots of others... ). I'm quoting the final paragraphs:

By suggesting that evil could exist beneath the virtuous pose of the
dutiful daughter, the prosecution unwittingly exposed the suppressed
tension in the medical-criminological model of womanhood: that
pathological femininity always underlies the norm. Like Jekyll,
Borden contained the seeds of her own depravity within her; however,
as a middle-class lady and good daughter, her pathology threatened
the entire social order. If Miss Lizzie of the WCTU, the Christian
Endeavor Society, and the Ladies Fruit and Flower Mission killed her
father with an ax, then any one of her coworkers could be a murderer
as well. The Borden case, therefore, shows us the instability of
ideological categories, in particular, gender and class norms.

By setting up an opposition between the saintly Miss Lizzie and the
murderous Lizzie Andrew Borden, the attorneys attempted to
suppress the instability of those gender and class categories; however,
in so doing, they unwittingly exposed it. The prosecution asked the
jury to forget the image of Miss Lizzie sitting before them and
imagine the daughter as fiend striking down her elderly father while
he slept. Similarly, as noted above, the defense could not allow any
suggestions of Borden's internal conflicts or dissatisfaction for fear it
would rupture the idealized version of Lizzie Borden's character
presented in court. However, as we have seen, this idealization
functioned to exclude women like Bridget Sullivan who did not fit
into the narrow parameters of acceptable femininity. Furthermore,
the supposedly oppositional images of angel and devil are derived
from the same ideological matrix. As Barbara Johnson comments,
"[t]he differences between entities ... are ... based on a repression
of differences within entities.

Because the trial of Lizzie Borden revealed those internal
contradictions, it also threatened to expose the contradictions in other
politically explosive oppositions. If the daughter was a murderer
(even if inherently irresponsible), then an upper-middle-class
Protestant lady might not be fundamentally different than, say, the
working-class Irish-Catholic Bridget Sullivan. If Borden's case
demonstrated the equivalence of such images and categories thought
to be fundamentally opposed, then all of the careful lines of demarcation
in Fall River (and indeed in the rest of the United States)
might prove to be fluid and erratic as well. Without these boundaries,
which as we have seen in Fall River were essential to self-definition,
the entire basis for social order and hierarchy would be lost. This was
the subversion buried at the heart of the case. Far better then to let
one woman get away with murder than to suggest that a dutiful
middle-class daughter like Miss Lizzie might be capable of it.

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/ ... ntext=yjlh

[Curryong]

Interesting, debbie, and feeding into that was of course the jury, male, middle-aged or older in the main, respectable and conservative farmers, tradesmen, small business people. No doubt several of them had adult daughters at home. Respectable, well-brought-up females would never in a million years murder their parents, especially with a hatchet!
(The jury presented Emma with a large unframed photograph of themselves, for Lizzie's perusal after her acquittal.)

[debbiediablo]

IMO this article also addresses why all of us are here debating a 122 year-old crime. (Did any of you have cake and ice cream to celebrate the anniversary... ). No matter how much evidence we cite or how hard we read between the lines, the salient question about Lizzie may always be not did she do it, but how could she do it? Why would a daughter who lived an otherwise respectable life both before and after the murders...why would she take a hatchet to the face of the father she supposedly loved?

My best friend and I have long debated whether each of us is capable of the Depraved Act...something so awful that we cannot readily conceive of doing it? I say yes, under the right circumstances - admittedly more extreme for some than others - each of us is capable of anything. She says no and denies the existence of the evil that I think lies mostly dormant within every human. (This does invite some self-examination as to why I choose debbiediablo as a username... )

Of course, my viewpoint leads to the next question: what happened in that house to push Good Lizzie over the edge? Was it an inherent character flaw, true pathology or was she a victim, too?

Her supporters turned on her because to admit she did it upended Everything About Women They Believed In; however, at some gut level never truly admitted, they knew damn well she was guilty of the deed itself or of somehow getting too close to the actual perpetrator. All the rest of it is window dressing to repress the fears that middle-class daughters, wives and mothers could commit the Heinous Deed. As for her female supporters, to admit she did it was to acknowledge their own potential perversion. To welcome her back into the fold was to invite the Threat of Contamination.

So they embraced their own ambivalence: she was not guilty but never truly innocent.

[Aamartin]

I think even today. if there was a murder trial in any of our towns as sensational as the Borden case was== even of the accused was acquitted-- there would be definite changes in people's attitude before, during and after the trial and verdict.

And I agree with Debbie. Most of us are probably capable of some depraved act under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

I have had a debate with a friend for years-- she says you cannot intentionally pee your pants and if you are ever holding it really bad just to try and go to see-- but I'm not willing to test her theory, so who knows?

[Curryong]

Have any of her other friends tested her theory, Anthony? What if you had a weak bladder?

[Aamartin]

no takers yet!

[Curryong]

Fall River Daily Globe June 9th 1893

'The real jury of her peers which is trying Lizzie Borden, is the job lot of femininity which fills the jury box on the South side of the New Bedford court house every day,'
(These were female spectators who were given prime spots to view the trial proceedings.)

Fall River Daily Globe June 6th 1894.

'Lizzie Borden does not propose to have the W.C.T.U. in her building in Fall River unless all its members speak to her on the street, which some of them decline to do. Our advice to Lizzie would be that she would show more good sense by quietly keeping still than by using the money which came to her so suddenly through the unexpected death of her father and mother for the sake of putting up with people who are not reconciled to her relations with the affair'. (From the Boston Record.)

'If Lizzie Borden attempts to square with all those who gave her the cold shoulder in Fall River, she will not lack for occupation for the rest of her days.' (from the Taunton Daily Gazette)
Fall River Daily Globe June 7th 1894.

[debbiediablo]

Wow! Sounds like a Facebook feud!! I never cease to be amazed at what newspapers printed back then.

[Curryong]

Yes, a Facebook feud between thirteen year olds!

[irina]

I just took an overnight huckleberry picking trip and this was exactly what I was thinking about the last few hours I was picking~picking as fast as I can and letting my mind wander wherever.

I was thinking especially of church members shunning her. I wondered if she would have been shunned if it was absolutely clear that she was absolutely innocent. If a truly mad man entered the house & stood there till the police came, with the dripping hatchet in his hand.

I have an idea they would have done to some extent though probably not as much as they did because her innocence was in question.

The reason I believe this is that I think other folks would have found some way to say the Borden family brought the tragedy upon themselves and there would have been judgement and the holier than thou people wouldn't want anything to do with someone that was somehow scandalous. If this was the case though (that Lizzie's innocence was without question), I think more individuals, like Alice Russell, would have remained friends, but I imagine larger groups would not want Lizzie and Emma within their groups.

Movie stars were mentioned earlier and I think that is a different thing. People think they know stars but they don't. People imagine the stars are whatever they want them to be. When something goes wrong people feel very personally betrayed. One of the most dramatic and tragic cases of a star falling fast was what happened to Fatty Arbuckle. He went from the top to the bottom suddenly due to a wild booze soaked party during Prohibition, during which an actress died, probably from the effects of an abortion obtained earlier. Arbuckle was probably guilty of no more than having a drunken party to which some sleazy people came. Lizzie doesn't really fit in this pattern because she was just a person in a class conscious society, just a member of her class or of the class others assumed she belonged in.

Like it used to be said, "Birds of a feather flock together." Our parents warned us not to have bad friends because their reputations would rub off on us and we could be judged by our friends' actions. I think this was taken far more seriously in Lizzie's day and nobody wanted someone with a taint of scandal attached, in their groups.

[Curryong]

Yes, I think the taint of scandal (of whatever sort) was very much in place in the 19th century. When I posted earlier about celebrities I was thinking more of the way in which, in the Internet age, people sitting anonymously behind their computer, think it is quite OK to tear a person who has made it in a difficult industry to pieces just because they can.

Of course, before the Internet the Press often played that role. I belong to another forum that is focused on European royal families and we were discussing the cult of Princess Diana the other day; how in some quarters she almost has reached sainthood since her death, in others it's very much the rise and fall of Diana.

By the way, are huckleberries rather bitter? I've always imagined them as needing some sugar. We have lots of tropical fruits and berries here, but not huckleberries.

[debbiediablo]

Irina, I agree. No one has ever escaped whole from a true catastrophe. We can make it count, find a way to the positive, but great tragedy leaves its scars. A woman can be kidnapped, raped, killed and dismembered. And someone will say she dressed seductively or shouldn't have been drinking or should've known better than to get in the car with a stranger. This kind of thinking gives us the illusion that bad things only happen to bad people, to THEM – not to moral, cautious, law-abiding people like US. Thinking like this works fine until we come face-to-face with the chaos that is reality.

[Curryong]

Fall River Evening News June 20tb 1893.

'One of the curious phrases of the Borden trial is disclosed in the statement by a New York correspondent that 'all women hereabouts seem to have made up their minds that Lizzie Borden is guilty. They don't think that she cried enough.'

[debbiediablo]

Fall River Evening News June 20tb 1893.

'One of the curious phrases of the Borden trial is disclosed in the statement by a New York correspondent that 'all women hereabouts seem to have made up their minds that Lizzie Borden is guilty. They don't think that she cried enough.'

Perhaps she needed a lesson or two from Oscar.

[Curryong]

Yes, Oscar deserved the proverbial Oscar for his performance!

[debbiediablo]

Yes, Oscar deserved the proverbial Oscar for his performance!

[NancyDrew]

Wow; thank you for all your replies. I've been away a while...I just lost interest in talking about Lizzie for a while.

So the consensus seems to be that it was Lizzie's post-acquittal behavior that brought on such a negative response. I wonder...if she had, instead of buying Maplecroft and all its finery, if she had spent her days after the trial sitting in the parlor at 2nd street with the window open,rocking and crying and clutching a picture of her dead father, if people would have had a different opinion of her. Further, if she had used her newly acquired riches to hire investigators and gave public interviews that she would not rest until the real killer was found!

Instead, however, she acted like someone who had gotten away with the perfect crime.

Murder fascinates me. I have a strong Italian background and quite a temper. Could I kill someone? Yes...if they were trying to kill ME or my children.

I think Lizzie did it, and further I think she is an incredibly interesting woman. Described by people as "gentle" and kindly" and by others as "ugly tempered" and "moody."

I spend a lot of time wondering what went through her mind in the years after. Did she dream about the murders? Feel guilty?

A final word regarding the original question of this post: The fact that her own church congregation refused to sit near the Borden pew makes me sick to my stomach. There is nothing I detest more than a hypocrite. Christians, my left foot.

[irina]

One of the reasons I felt Lizzie was unfairly charged was that she was judged for not showing enough emotion. If that part was knocked out of the equation she might not have been charged, rightly or wrongly.

Somewhere a pastor did an experiment. When the well dressed congregants came for Sunday services there was a ragged bum sleeping by the steps of the church. The congregants walked widely around the bum & went into the church. Then the pastor took the pulpit~~dressed in rags. He had caught the congregation not doing what Jesus had taught. This is supposed to be a true story.

I am deeply religious but at this time in my life I can't really stand to be around people. Bad experiences. Migraine took my ability to speak and for a number of years I sounded like I was drunk or mentally challenged. I practice my faith daily but it is a personal relationship to God as I know Him.

Huckleberries are like blueberries only stronger. To me blueberries are bland. Huckleberries are sweet and a bit sour. I think they grow in 49 of our states~some variety at least. The bush is in the Heath family. I was wondering if Lizzie picked them. I would guess she picked berries at some time in her life. Maybe blueberries, cranberries, raspberries or blackberries. I'm not sure about huckleberry picking in New England and perhaps someone here knows more than me.

I picked 30 pounds of berries this week and half that much last week. They are smaller than blueberries. This is an extraordinary year because the flowers were triple or more. In a good year huckleberries have twin flowers and two berries are on the bush at each point. This year the berries are almost in clusters and they are large. There was a lot of rain at just the right time. Sometimes rain causes the bushes to mould and the berries drop. If it gets too hot they will dry up and fall. There are many ways for the crop to fail. I am in my fifties and have picked berries for most of my life and have never seen berries like this. I will freeze most of them and share some. I have a few friends left. I give some to the doctor who believes in me enough to treat me so that I have less pain and headaches and can do things like pick berries.

[dalcanton]

The court of public opinion can be brutal. A recent murder trial that ended in acquittal was the Casey Anthony case. Despite what anyone’s opinion is of her, no one can say 100% for sure that she murdered her child. Did she portray herself as a likable person? IMO, no. But not being likable doesn’t mean she committed murder.

Although acquitted, she (like Lizzie) will have to endure public scorn (right or wrong) for the rest of her life.

I'm not defending Casey. I believe IF she didn't do it, she knew who did - or if it were an accident - what exactly happened.

I wouldn't have voted to convict her of murder (the prosecution didn't prove its case), but I would've voted to convict her of child negligence (I think that was one of the charges?)

[Curryong]

How interesting about huckleberries, Ive never tasted them but they sound as if they are similar to how I imagined. And a good crop!

The internet is good isnt it if you need some peace and quiet from others for a while but still wish to communicate.

I believe, like you NancyDrew, that I would be capable of killing if loved ones where in danger. It is odd that some are judged for supposed lack of grief. We had a famous similar case in Australia, the Lindy Chamberlain 'dingo's got my baby' case
. Perhaps Lizzie should have been like Queen Victoria with Prince Albert and had herself photographed all in black, clutching her hanky and gazing at
a large bust of Andrew!

I have to say, I followed the Casey Anthony case closely, dalcanton. I presume Casey is still virtually in hiding. These high profile cases leave their mark.

[debbiediablo]

My final experience picking raspberries involved a timber rattler under the berry bush. One of us survived, and my methods of obtaining berries changed promptly. Now I buy them from the neighboring Amish.

[irina]

I think Casey Anthony's child got overheated in the car. Maybe even she was playing in the car and overheated. Since any child death or injury in this country is considered criminal I don't blame Casey for covering up. Her parents were creepy and totally disgusted me. Since I am extremely against capital punishment, that her mom tried to get her on death row was absolutely unacceptable. Then the mom (and dad) comes off as a freak. I seldom make that kind of comment about real people, especially since I also write for a publication, but I watched the Anthony trial and I have no respect for her parents. I think Casey was odd but I'm not sure she was evil or even guilty.

I was thinking how fortunate that where I was berry picking I didn't have to worry about snakes, because I was picking along a stream bank that was very overgrown. I am in rattler country a lot of the time but the berry patches are high in the mountains where there aren't any. Mostly they want to get away, at least the ones in western Idaho/eastern Oregon. If there were snakes in the berry patch I'd just wear snake boots and be careful where I sat. Our only poisonous snakes around here are rattlers. We have no coral snakes, cotton mouths or copperheads.

[Aamartin]

I am also vehemently opposed to the death penalty.

Look at George Zimmerman. The man disgusts me. He's turned into a joke. No job, no money-- he may have gotten off, but his life is ruined nonetheless.

[Aamartin]

I am also vehemently opposed to the death penalty.

Look at George Zimmerman. The man disgusts me. He's turned into a joke. No job, no money-- he may have gotten off, but his life is ruined nonetheless.

[Curryong]

I didn't know that George Zimmerman was in such dire straits, Anthony. I thought he had many supporters at the time. They all must have vanished, I suppose. As for Casey Anthony, I wonder whether she and her parents still communicate?
You're near an Amish community, debbie? Someone I used to know was a quilter, entered an international competition, and won in one section. Through that she was invited to visit the Amish home of one of the judges on her visit to the States, a great honour.

We have many poisonous snakes in Australia. In the Eastern States the main ones are the bad-tempered brown snake and the tiger snake which slithers around on hot summer nights looking for small prey. (At least rattlesnakes advertise that they are there!) People have stood on them and been bitten in the dark, but fortunately there are few deaths from snake bite in Australia. You are more likely, if camping in Tasmania to hear, away in the bushes, two Tasmanian devils meeting and fighting. Once heard never forgotten!

[debbiediablo]

We are right in the midst of an Amish community. They starting moving in about twenty years ago, and now there are buggies and stores and world's greatest flower nursery right down the road.

[Aamartin]

debbie lives in a beautiful part of Iowa! My grandmother lived there when we visited her we saw many Amish and went to their stores and bought their baked goods, etc.

[irina]

I frequently see old programmes with Steve Irwin playing with Australia's poison snakes. That is exactly what I was thinking of in the berry patch. Thank God we don't have taipans, browns, tiger snakes, fierce snakes, cobras...

[Curryong]

I think the ones in India or South America would be the worst. Their hinged jaws allowing a goat or small donkey to go slithering down-ugh! I saw a photo of a dead snake in South America once, with villagers standing around and this huge shape (goat?) clearly shown around its middle quarters. There was some urban myth a while ago from India that a python had hoovered up a drunken man. but that was soon disproved!

[debbiediablo]

I frequently see old programmes with Steve Irwin playing with Australia's poison snakes. That is exactly what I was thinking of in the berry patch. Thank God we don't have taipans, browns, tiger snakes, fierce snakes, cobras...

My husband used to kill three or four every summer; he has a basswood stick about five feet long that has been the end of many dozens of rattlesnakes. We once found one by the mailbox, and our neighbors almost stepped on one sunning in their front porch. But in the past decade they seem to have moved to less pastured more remote timber. Generally they slither away when hearing someone approaching but once, about ten years ago, my husband was busy dispatching a female with the snake stick when a huge, angry, seriously rattling male snake came out onto the path and assumed strike S position. He killed #2 , also with the stick, but from then on wears a pistol in a holster when he's working in that area. The only saving grace is they will rattle, and there's no mistaking that sound! My solution to snakes is a 12-gauge loaded with 00 3 " buck....makes no difference - garden snake, black snake, milk snake, hog snake - they die if I can get the gun before they can crawl away.