Emma

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue May 04, 2004 4:25 pm

I do not know what it is....

I found it via the web.

I think Lizzie would have visited my neighborhood while in Paris and I think she would have strolled down my street!

I was born too soon!
LOL

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:11 pm

That's not your street and that's not Emma? So I am confused.

I guess I thought your son helped you mount a picture of your past.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:20 pm

That is the street I was raised on. I just found the photo on the web!

Emma?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:31 pm

Oh OK. I get it. It's still very cool!
Yea the topic is Emma and there's a figure leaning on the wall. I'm being fanciful.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:35 pm

You have a sharp eye!

I did not see the person.

Lets say it is Lizzie... And she is thinking:

"These Parisians sure know how to cook mutton!"

Kimberly · Post by **Kimberly** » Mon May 10, 2004 9:46 pm

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon May 10, 2004 9:54 pm

Do you think that even though she may have seemed to want Lizzie to "go and do and have" that she secretly resented her when she did and wanted to keep Lizzie close to her and dependant on her at all times?

Perhaps this is why she eventually fled M'Croft?

Kimberly · Post by **Kimberly** » Mon May 10, 2004 10:05 pm

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:16 pm

As always Kat posted some real gems here. There are some things to consider about family life and the pressures that may have affected Emma and her sister. Having always come from a very small family~none now~I am not even capable of thinking in these terms.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:20 pm

Emma Borden has always been a bit of an enigma in my view. Her loyalty to Lizzie was total. How much she knew or suspected about her sister at the time of and after the murders is less clear.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:20 pm

Curryong wrote:... Her loyalty to Lizzie was total. ...

Yes, Emma was not only loyal to Lizzie, she was also loyal to the promise she made to her mother. She took care of 'little Lizzie' until things at Maplecroft became too much for her; even then I wouldn't be surprised if she kept a close eye on Lizzie. I have always thought that by Emma dying 9 days after Lizzie did; she felt the promise to her mother was fulfilled, and she could then go to her eternal life in peace. I could be wrong, but ...

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:31 pm

Not on the subject but in the thread, what's with all the "edits' by Kimberly? Not just here but throughout the site?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:34 pm

No, twins, I think you are correct. That promise, made when she was a child, dominated her life to the end. I would still like to know what it was that drove her out of Maplecroft. I don't believe it was Nance O' Neill or lesbianism. Maybe a quarrel broke out over something quite trivial and then escalated. I think Emma knew in her heart what Lizzie was capable of but never allowed herself to admit it.

I never knew Kimberly. Maybe she wanted to add or take away things to her posts a lot. (I tend to do that myself!)

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:00 pm

debbiediablo wrote:Not on the subject but in the thread, what's with all the "edits' by Kimberly? Not just here but throughout the site?

As far as I know, Kimberly erased her own posts for unknown personal reasons.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:34 pm

Curryong wrote:No, twins, I think you are correct. That promise, made when she was a child, dominated her life to the end. …

Thanks, Curryong, It has always struck me as being odd that Emma passed away 9 days after Lizzie did; as if she was holding onto her life until the promise she made to her mother was no longer a responsibility.

Curryong wrote: … I would still like to know what it was that drove her out of Maplecroft. I don't believe it was Nance O' Neill or lesbianism. Maybe a quarrel broke out over something quite trivial and then escalated. I think Emma knew in her heart what Lizzie was capable of but never allowed herself to admit it. …

Well, I agree that most likely a quarrel occurred between Lizzie and Emma, but I believe it was a full-fledged disagreement from beginning to end. Sister’s just don’t erase one another from their lives without a good reason, or what they perceive is a good reason. I don’t believe Emma left Maplecroft because of Nance O’Neill or lesbianism, either. I think Emma’s departure was mainly because of the coachman, Joseph Tetrault (AKA John Tatro). Nance O’Neill may also have been a small part of the disagreement, but Emma had fired the coachman in 1902, against Lizzie’s wishes. In 1904, Lizzie rehires him. This action on Lizzie’s part must have been a huge slap in the face to Emma. It was also in 1904 that Lizzie meets Nance O’Neill. So, it’s possible that the reason for Emma’s departure was due to a combination of occurrences, however, I believe the main reason was because of John Tatro.

Rebello, page 288:

Tatro, Joseph H., head man for the Bordens, white, male, born Feb., 1863, age 37, single, born in Rhode Island, father born in Rhode Island, mother born in Rhode Island, occupation, head man.

Note: Joseph H. Tatro, also spelled Tetrault, was employed by Emma and Lizzie Borden from 1899-1902 and 1904-1908. When Emma left Lizzie in 1905, newspapers reported that Emma Borden did not like Mr. Tetrault nor his "doings or position as coachman." He had been dismissed and returned to his job as a barber. He was later rehired as coachman and remained at French Street until 1908. "Miss Emma is said to have still found offense in his comfortable preferment. Tetrault was a fine looking young man and reported to be very popular among the ladies, although Miss Emma took a dislike to him." Mr. Tetrault left Fall River in 1908 and moved to Providence, Rhode Island.

Also on page 310:

"Emma separated from Lizzie in 1905 and never returned to Maplecroft. Rumors prevailed as to the reasons Emma left Lizzie. It was reported that the Borden sisters had many long-standing disagreements. Emma was not pleased with Lizzie's relationship with theater people, especially Nance O'Neil. She also objected to the coachman, Joseph Tetrault, a former barber, known to have been a fine looking man and very popular among the ladies. He was dismissed as coachman and returned to his former trade. Lizzie later rehired him."

In Paul Dennis Hoffman’s book, Yesterday in Old Fall River: A Lizzie Borden Companion:

-Tetrault, Joseph H. (1863-?)-
"Joseph Tetrault was the coachman for the Borden sisters when both lived at Maplecroft. Emma developed a strong dislike for him for reasons now forgotten, and fired him, even though Lizzie wanted the coach driver to stay. Tetrault went back to his old profession of barber until later rehired by Lizzie Borden. It is possible that hard feelings over Tetrault contributed to Emma's decision to leave Maplecroft in 1904. Tetrault left Fall River for the final time in 1908. He moved to Providence, R.I., the city of his birth."

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:11 pm

Where was Tetrault on August 4, 1892?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:41 pm

I don't know where he was at the time of the murders but in July 1893 Joseph was hanging around Fall River pleading guilty to charges of adultery with one Mary Soucie. Yes, you actually could be brought to court for that in those days.

I think twins is onto something here. Perhaps Lizzie was amused by the handsome devil and Emma was shocked by his familiar manner with her sister. That would have been a definite no-no in those days!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:27 am

You are correct, Curryong, Joseph Tetrault did plead guilty to adultery.

Joseph Tetrault guilty .jpg

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:41 am

Curryong wrote:... I think twins is onto something here. Perhaps Lizzie was amused by the handsome devil and Emma was shocked by his familiar manner with her sister. That would have been a definite no-no in those days!

Well, I don't know if I'm on to something here or not, but as I have posted in a couple of threads, I believe Emma left Maplecroft mainly due to John Tatro, AKA Joseph Tetrault. He may have been making advances toward Lizzie, which Emma did not approve of.

According to the 1900 Federal Census, Emma was 12 years older than John, and Lizzie was 3 years older. So, it makes sense that he would have been more attracted to Lizzie, since she was closer to his age, and she was also more outgoing than the prudish Emma was.

1900crop.jpg

It has always been said that Emma disliked John. What if in fact she was attracted to him, but he wouldn't give her the time of day, because he was interested in Lizzie. It is also possible that Lizzie being the kind of outgoing person she was, may have given John the 'come on'. I'd say that would definitely account for why Emma left Maplecroft and never spoke to Lizzie again.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:48 am

Lizzie and Emma were rich heiresses; maybe Tatro wasn't putting all of his eggs in one basket.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:16 am

Is there anything you know of, twinsrwe, that would show whether Joseph was in Fall River in 1892. No snippet from a newspaper or local directory? People didn't change career much in those times as we do now. He therefore was probably a driver of some sort, if not a chauffeur.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:31 am

I'm going to pull this right out of my ear and then go to bed: Andrew might not have objected to Lizzie marrying David Anthony but he would've had a disinheriting conniption if Lizzie took up with someone like John Tatro. I've always thought Lizzie might've brought the murderer into the house the night before when she came home from Alice Russell's and then hid him the only safe place in the entire house - Emma's bedroom. I'm a little perplexed why Tatro would be carrying a hatchet for a nightlong tryst but if he came face to face with Abby, perhaps even by accident as he was attempting to sneak out, I can see the explosion. Or he laid in wait for her in order to attach himself to an heiress.

I must have a suspicious mind.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:00 am

debbiediablo wrote:I'm going to pull this right out of my ear and then go to bed: Andrew might not have objected to Lizzie marrying David Anthony but he would've had a disinheriting conniption if Lizzie took up with someone like John Tatro. I've always thought Lizzie might've brought the murderer into the house the night before when she came home from Alice Russell's and then hid him the only safe place in the entire house - Emma's bedroom. I'm a little perplexed why Tatro would be carrying a hatchet for a nightlong tryst but if he came face to face with Abby, perhaps even by accident as he was attempting to sneak out, I can see the explosion. Or he laid in wait for her in order to attach himself to an heiress.

I must have a suspicious mind.

A good theory but if someone had spent the night upstairs with Lizzie, they would have sneaked out very very early, before anyone awoke. Even if he and Lizzie overslept, and everyone was up, Lizzie would have aided him in getting out unseen, I doubt he would have been given the opportunity to bump into Abby by accident.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:13 am

I'm perplexed by Tatro would have a hatchet at hand unless he came in with the express purpose of murder.

However, Lizzie was an heiress waiting in the wings. She might be easy prey for a womanizer like Tatro. And he might've viewed her as his own rags to riches super highway. Not saying anything other than I'd like to know a little more about him.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:26 am

Curryong wrote:Is there anything you know of, twinsrwe, that would show whether Joseph was in Fall River in 1892. No snippet from a newspaper or local directory? People didn't change career much in those times as we do now. He therefore was probably a driver of some sort, if not a chauffeur.

Unfortunately, there is nothing that I know of, or have found, regarding where Joseph was in 1892. We do know that when Emma fired John in 1902, he went back to his previous profession of barber, until he was rehired by Lizzie Borden in 1904. I did a Google search for ‘Joseph H. Tetrault barber Fall River, MA’, but failed to obtain any results; I also tried “John H. Tatro barber Fall River, MA’, but again no results. Sorry.

I did stumble upon a couple of threads from our forum regarding Joeph Tetrault, which are interesting reads:

The Men in Lizzie's Life
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive06 ... veAmen.htm

Gertrude Lamson aka Nance O'Neill
viewtopic.php?t=1979

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:33 am

Something I need to clarify here: The Joseph Tetrault mentioned in the newspaper article that I posted, may or may not be the Joseph H. Tetrault who was a coachman for the Borden sisters. I find it odd that Len Rebello would not mention this newspaper article in his book, if this guy was indeed John H. Tatro, coachman for Lizzie and Emma. I have not found anything that verifies the man in the newspaper article was a coachman for ‘the girls’.

I find it very odd that Joseph H. Tetrault was also known as John H. Tatro. I haven't figured out why he felt the need to use two names. It's almost as if he had something to hide. I wish we had more information about this guy.

irina · Post by **irina** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:56 am

The name thing makes a lot of sense to me and I almost mentioned it earlier but then thought my point might be way off the mark.

French Canadians apparently made up a portion of Fall River's social strata. It has been said Dr. Chagnon was French Canadian. It has been said that the Bordens used the WASP Dr. Bowen and avoided Dr. Chagnon or the Irish Catholic Dr. Kelly, etc. I never tried to understand all this so this is just from bits that flew by with other research. Debbie and I and Curryong recently referred to a publication about Lizzie's trial strategy which was put out by Yale, and it goes into these divisions extensively. Without really putting my mind into it and taking notes it's kind of hard to get it all straight so I'll say I don't have a firm grasp of the subject.

Tetrault in the French pronunciation would come out something like Tatro. English speakers trying to get all the letters might say Tet-RAWLT but the French would be close to Tatro. So perhaps people couldn't handle the French spelling and he or newspapers or something changed it on a more permanent basis. It would be interesting if in later years the family used Tatro in an official capacity. It's like a witness in Jack the Ripper lore had a Polish surname which was officially changed to the more British "Lavender" or "Lavende" when he became a citizen.

My original thought was if Emma would have objected to John Tetrault, possibly a French Canadian, possibly Catholic. Would it matter that much anyway? How much did that society disdain French Canadians and Catholics? Thus I thought my observation was weak and didn't post it.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:53 pm

Within my memory the local church youth groups got together to Trick or Treat for UNICEF. Afterward we were to meet at the Catholic parish for refreshments provided by all three congregations. The parish priest apparently wasn't part of the joint planning as he came out and said to us, "The Catholic children can have snacks. If there's anything left over then the rest of you can have some." This was in the early 1960s. So I'm guessing the rift between race, ethnicity, religion, creed, social/economic strata and nationality was a gaping gash in 1892 Fall River.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:37 pm

OK, that explains the Tetrault vs. Tatro, but what about the Joseph vs. John?

irina · Post by **irina** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:39 pm

Interesting, Debbie. Very unfortunate. Even as Christian denominations join more and more together at this time in history there is a still a gap between Catholic and Protestant, largely because of Catholic belief and teaching about the eucharist.

irina · Post by **irina** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:42 pm

I'll look into the Joseph v. John. Reporters can be sloppy. Maybe Tetrault's name was John Joseph? Did he have a brother? Lots of possibilities.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:48 pm

My guess is Tatro had some scrapes with the law he wanted to distance himself from. Which reminds of some errant newspaper headlines I posted for Franz in Stay to Tea. One of them was "Queen Mary Has Bottom Scraped"....

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:02 pm

I found the following 1900 United States Federal Census record at Ancestry.com, about 6-8 weeks ago. I’m not registered with Ancestry.com , so couldn’t research any further. I don’t know how I obtained the information below, but today when I clicked on the link provided below, I didn’t obtain the same information. (???)

Is anyone registered with Ancestry.com, who would be willing to research further into information on John H. Tatro?

I wonder what Ward 8 means – could this be a prison ward?

1900 United States Federal Census
Census & Voter Lists

View Image

Name: John H Tatro
[Joseph H Tatro Tetrault)]
Birth: Feb 1863 - Rhode Island
Residence: Fall River Ward 8, Bristol, Massachusetts

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... seo&ghc=20

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:12 pm

Ward 8 is a geographic location used to define where people vote within the city, similar to a township in rural areas. I have had an ancestry.com membership, unsure if it's still current.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:53 pm

Thank you, Debbie, for the Ward 8 information. It is appreciated. Would you mind doing some research on John Tatro, that is if your membership is still current?

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:47 pm

Born Joseph H Tetrault Feb 1863 in Rhode Island...Tatro is the phonetic version of Tetrault. Died 1929. AKA John H Tetrault, John H Tatro, Joseph H Tatro.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:31 pm

Good work, debbie! I wonder why he called himself by two different first names even if changing his last name was understandable? That spot of trouble with Mary Souce perhaps? You are right, twins, Rebello doesnt mention the flirtatious chauffeur at all, surprisingly.

The only dampener I'd put on Tatro being the mysterious intruder of 1892 is the length of time before hooking up with Lizzie again. Surely a smooth operator like him would have secured his future by marrying Lizzie and her fortune by the end of 1893 and whisking her off to live in great comfort in California or Florida or somewhere, after a European honeymoon, of course! Instead, we have him a decade later a humble servant for the Borden sisters and getting on the wrong side of an increasingly grim Emma!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:37 pm

Thanks, Debbie! So, now we know he had four aliases that he was known as. Very interesting. What was this man hiding?

Personally, I don't think John Tatro had anything to do with killing Abby and Andrew. There is no evidence that he and Lizzie even knew each other in 1892. However, I do believe he had a lot to do with Emma leaving Maplecroft.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:27 pm

Tatro Timeline.png

John Tatro (Tetrault...his father's name was Tetrau duCharme) had five siblings and nine half-siblings. He never married. Any children were not recorded as his. Here is the timeline from Ancestry, his death certificate and the paragraph from Rebello, page 228:

Tatro, Joseph H., head man for the Bordens, white, male, born Feb., 1863, age 37, single, born in Rhode Island, father born in Rhode Island, mother born in Rhode Island, occupation, headman.
Note: Joseph H. Tatro, also spelled Tetrault, was employed by Emma and Lizzie Borden from 1899-1902 and 1904-1908. When Emma left Lizzie in 1905, newspapers reported that Emma Borden did not like Mr. Tetrault nor his "doings or position as coachman." He had been dismissed and returned to his job as a barber. He was later rehired as coachman and remained at French Street until 1908. "Miss Emma is said to have still found offense in his comfortable preferment. Tetrault was a fine looking young man and reported to be very popular among the ladies, although Miss Emma took a dislike to him." Mr. Tetrault left Fall River in 1908 and moved to Providence, Rhode Island.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:06 pm

Interesting, debbie! It seems he liked the job of coachman better than barber. It probably paid more.

I wonder why he finally left in 1908? Did he receive a better offer, elsewhere? Was he not such a good chauffeur of motor cars as he was a coachman? Was his cheeky manner finally getting on Lizzie's nerves? Did he go back to being a barber in later life? So many questions we'll never know the answer to!

And finally, why did none of Lizzie's servants give an interview to a magazine following her death? She was still a figure of some interest/notoriety, and a few reminiscences wouldn't have hurt her memory.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:24 pm

Tatro was a Cook or Scheff (chef) at the Rose Mary Home in Euclid, OH, when he died. The Rose Mary Home started in 1922 by Catholic charities as a residence for physically handicapped children. The woman who provided the information on the death certificate is Tatro's younger (by two years) sister Mary.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:09 pm

Very interesting! Wonder where he learned his cooking skills? A multi-talented man!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:51 pm

I'm guessing that Catholic charity extended to hiring a man in his 60s to cook for disabled children. One thing for sure: Lizzie didn't pay him off handsomely allowing for a life of leisure when he left her employ for the final time. There are minimal US Census records for 1890 (due to a fire in 1921) so I'm trying to find him in Fall River on or before 8-4-1892 by other documents.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:29 pm

WOW, Debbie, this is more information than I ever expected! Thank you so much for posting it.

Mary, Joseph’s sister, named his father as Peter Tatro. Debbie, was it in Ancestry.com that his father's name was Tetrau duCharme?

Being Joseph had always been a single man, I imagine he learned to cook rather early in his life; he would have to had to learn to cook or starve! I wonder why he didn't continue his profession of being a barber. Like Curryong, I also wonder why he left Lizzie and Maplecroft, in 1908. Hmmm???

Joseph died on August 10, 1929, of Hemorrhage fragua stomach; contributory: Cancer of stomach. I did a Google search of Hemorrhage Cancer of stomach 1929, and found the following article, which is dated, January 1918. I found it an interesting read.

Journal of the Maine Medical Association (1910-1929): http://tinyurl.com/pg9n75l

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:36 pm

Cancer of the stomach then, poor man. He may well have been ill for some time. I wonder whether he was THE Joseph Tetrault who was caught with Mary the adulteress?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:50 pm

Yes, I imagine he had quite a painful death. I would also like to know if he was the same man who plead guilty to adultery with Mary Soucie.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:33 pm

Yes. Joseph/John's father was Pierre Tetreau duCharme, so in English he would be Peter. His first wife and mother of nine children was Marie Denicourt. She died, and he remarried Almedia Fanion with whom he had six more. (Some sources list five.) Our guy is #2 with wife #2. For inexplicable reasons some of the older children by wife #1 use the correct surname duCharme which changes to Tetrault (not Tetreau) for the younger ones.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:23 pm

OK, now that you have added the word 'Pierre' to his father's name, it make sense. Debbie, I can't thank you enough for providing us with all of this additional information!!! It is very much appreciated!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:46 pm

Some interesting views on Emma and her role in Lizzie's life, from early members as well. Come on posters, tell us what you think, including those who have perhaps not posted before.

irina · Post by **irina** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:56 pm

I think Emma judged Lizzie as having a deep moral fault and that is why she moved out and never spoke to her sister again. I think Lizzie, Emma's surrogate daughter, didn't live up to Emma's expectations. Emma couldn't disinherit her financially so she did it emotionally. I still think it may have been because Lizzie didn't live her life in perpetual mourning due to the tragedy, but it could have been something else.