Lizzie's Looks and Suitors

[Curryong]

They may have met, but where? Much of Lizzie's social life in 1892, if you can call it that, centred around church affairs. She was a member of the Central Congregationalist Church under the care of the Rev Buck. As twins has posted, David was a parishioner of the Methodist Congregation when he was young (probably with his family) and in those much more sectarian days I doubt that the two congregations would have mingled.

Both brothers and an uncle, I believe, sailed round that part of the coast and so there might have been a meeting or two at Marion when Lizzie was with her friends at Dr Handy's cottage, but these would have been rare.

[Curryong]

Is the buggy and rider that Angel was referring to Dr Handy, who according to someone in the witness statements, was parked opposite Dr Kelly's house that morning and behaving, according to this witness, in a very strange way, twisting his head this way and that and looking nervous?

[debbiediablo]

This was initially posted by Kat and then reposted and commented on by Catbooks:

by Kat » Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:48 am:

Rebello, pg. 62+

"Yacht Mabel F. Swift of Fall River is now at Marion [Massachusetts]. Her owner, Charles W.
Anthony, is cruising with a party of friends, including Hon. Simeon Borden, Hon. James F. Jackson and Messrs.. Holder W. Durfee, William Winslow and R. W. Bassett."

"The following ladies from Fall River are stopping at Blake's Point: Mrs. James [Frederick] Jackson, Misses Edith Jackson, Jennie Stowell, Anna [Covell] Holmes, Mary [Louisa] Holmes, Mabel H. Remington, Louise O. Remington, Alice [Lydia] Buck, Isabelle [Isabel] J. Fraser, Louise [Holmes] Handy, Elizabeth [Murray] Johnston, Annie [Childs] Bush and Lizzie [Andrew] Borden." New Bedford Evening Standard, July 26, 1892: 4.

"Sloop yacht Mabel F. Swift was at Marion, Monday, where the following ladies from Fall River are stopping at Blake's Point: Mrs. James F. Jackson, Misses Edith Jackson, Jennie Stowell, Anna C. Holmes, Mary L. Holmes, Mabel H. Remington, Louise O. Remington, Alice Buck, Isabelle Fraser,
Louise H. Handy, Elizabeth Johnston, Annie C. Bush, and Lizzie A. Borden." Fall River Evening News, July 27, 1892: 8.

--Charles Anthony was David Anthony's uncle.
I have included a bit more info on this craft in The Hatchet, May/June 2006, pages 29 and 30: "Jay Gould's Yacht."
BTW: Ruby's middle name is spelled "Frances."


by Catbooks » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:35 pm:

so 8 days before the murders, lizzie was on david's uncle's yacht, and marion was where she was planning to go on a fishing trip sometime shortly after the murders.

it ain't no smoking gun, but it's interesting.

[Curryong]

Yes, I remembered vaguely that being posted. David wasn't among them though, and many of the women staying at Blake's Point (Marion) were socially prominent (that is, from families on 'the Hill',) as were the Anthonys themselves and probably a few of Charles's friends on the yacht. It would be natural of them to call on 'the ladies' as they were in the area. Lizzie, though, only spent one day in Marion, though she may have originally planned to stay more.

[debbiediablo]

The interesting part (aside from that it establishes at the very least an acquaintance between Lizzie and David's family) is that the men who are "cruising" are older, well-established and well-moneyed. The women who are named to be "stopping by" are younger, unmarried and identified by their father except for the one who has a husband. I'm not sure we know these meetings to be rare for Lizzie although I doubt she was hanging there every weekend. The Borden sisters' social lives seem to be a BIG ?. Lizzie's attorneys went to every effort to have her appear as a doting daughter and religious devotee. If she did kill her parents then she was quite different from her public image.

[Curryong]

As this thread is (nominally) about suitors of the Borden girls it might be worth noting that the Misses Holmes, Anna and Mary, were the daughters of the ubiquitous Marianna and Charles, who gave Lizzie her homecoming party. They were school teachers and never married either.

Alice Buck was a daughter of the Rev. and five years older than Lizzie.
Most were school teachers and members of the same church as Lizzie. Miss Elizabeth Johnston was the person who received the letter from Lizzie joking about bringing a nice sharp axe on holiday. She later destroyed the letter and wouldn't let the police look at it, after taking advice from Mr Jennings.

[debbiediablo]

Jennings seems to have been an officer of the court secondly and foremost a believer in the destruction of evidence. Which was probably a good idea except the judges would've ruled it too distant from the crime to be admissible. He probably would've said burn that dress if Emma hadn't gotten to it first! Makes me wonder if there's a hatchet in a law office in Boston.

[Curryong]

From 'A Centenarian Recalls Lizzie Borden' New Bedford Standard Times Oct 6th 1975.
Rebello Page 500

'Mrs Alice Dean, 'She (Lizzie) was a perfect lady. She was very religious. She was wonderful to us. She recalled Lizzie as being a "very mannish looking person....she always wore men's hats and shoes, totally unlike her sister, who was very lady-like...It should be a closed business. Whether she did it or not is a big mystery. I don't know."
Mrs Dean was a friend of Lizzie Borden and visited the Borden household.'

Looks like Abbie wasn't the only one who adopted the wearing of men's shoes. And again we have an image portrayed of a rather androgynous figure.

[debbiediablo]

From 'A Centenarian Recalls Lizzie Borden' New Bedford Standard Times Oct 6th 1975.
Rebello Page 500
Mrs Alice Dean, 'It should be a closed business. Whether she did it or not is a big mystery. I don't know."
Mrs Dean was a friend of Lizzie Borden and visited the Borden household.'

This is interesting in that Lizzie's friend, or what passed as a friend...someone who visited Lizzie, isn't convinced of her guilt or innocence, but rather thinks it should be over with. I'm trying to put myself in Alice Dean's place in late Victorian America. Under what circumstances would a friend be willing to seek closure of a hatchet parricide while still maintaining the possibility of the friend's guilt? For me, that attitude might require some extenuating circumstances which would somehow justify the crime if Lizzie committed it. For me, those extenuating circumstances would need to be compelling. Or maybe Alice Dean speaks for the Fall River-ites who, at that time, simply wanted the Borden murders to pass into history.

[debbiediablo]

There's a lot of black cat and koala conversation here. Please post, especially those of you who are new members. I love new ideas!

[Curryong]

Sorry, one more Kaola comment! Yes please, others, post!

Well, remember Alice Russell in her old age gave an interview in which she more or less said that she believed Lizzie did it but that she had been totally justified in so doing because of the restrictive, penny-pinching life Andrew imposed on his household. In a way Alice R. was also almost dismissive, "Yes, well she did it, but who could blame her!" is her attitude.

[debbiediablo]

Sorry, one more Kaola comment! Yes please, others, post!

Well, remember Alice Russell in her old age gave an interview in which she more or less said that she believed Lizzie did it but that she had been totally justified in so doing because of the restrictive, penny-pinching life Andrew imposed on his household. In a way Alice R. was also almost dismissive, "Yes, well she did it, but who could blame her!" is her attitude.

Good point. Apparently Alice R saw the results of Andrew's restrictive, penny-pinching lifestyle...but I wonder if there was more happening in the home than she fully understood. Or maybe I can't wrap my brain around smashing in the old folks' heads for dollars. For sure, people have been killed for a lot less...but Lizzie professed to love her father and in some ways I think she did. This is where money as the sole motivator fails for me.

Irina, BOBO, CuriousMind, NoStoneUnturned, Twinsrwe, Possum, Anthony, Phineas, everyone else....please post! Even though Curryong and I do have very cute avatars!

[twinsrwe]

... Irina, BOBO, CuriousMind, NoStoneUnturned, Twinsrwe, Possum, Anthony, Phineas, everyone else....please post! Even though Curryong and I do have very cute avatars!

Sorry, I haven't posted anything for awhile, but I was involved doing some research for this thread. BTW, I agree, you and Curryong have exceptionally cute avatars!!!

[twinsrwe]

This is in regards to when Lizzie stayed at Truesdale Hospital. Rebello on page 320:

"Nurses who knew Miss [Lizzie] Borden as a patient at Truesdale Hospital two years ago mentioned to their friends, it is said, that she was a woman of decided opinions and will, more masculine in appearance and ways than feminine"

Perhaps, it wasn’t Lizzie’s physical appearance that kept men at arm’s length as much as her masculine ways, opinions and will. Men in the 1800’s were expected to be ‘the head of the household’, which is exactly what Andrew was when it came to money matters. He had control over everything that took place in his house, except his daughters, and especially Lizzie. She may have loved her father dearly, but as we know she was not at all pleased with Andrew’s decision to purchase one half of Abby's half-sisters house on Fourth St. and give it to Abby.


Lizzie's Inquest Testimony, p. 86(43)

Q. Whose father's house?
A. Mrs. Borden's father's house. She had a stepmother and a half sister, Mrs. Borden did, and this house was left to the stepmother and a half sister, if I understood it right, and the house was for sale. The stepmother, Mrs. Oliver Gray, wanted to sell it, and my father brought [sic] out the Widow Gray's share. She did not tell me, and he did not tell me, but some outsiders said that he gave it to her. Put it in her name. I said if he gave that to her, he ought to give us something. Told Mrs. Borden so. She did not care anything about the house herself. She wanted it so this half sister could have a home, because she had married a man that was not doing the best he could, and she thought her sister was having a very hard time and wanted her to have a home. And we always thought she persuaded father to buy it. At any rate he did buy it, and I am quite sure she did persuade him. I said what he did for her people he ought to do for his own children. So he gave us grandfather's house. That was all the trouble we ever had.

If Lizzie took control over her suitors the same way she did her father, then I don’t wonder why she didn’t have any lasting relationships with the male population!

[debbiediablo]

OFF TOPIC:

I wanted something animated but when I pared down this cat to 9 KB it wouldn't work. So then I picked a picture of Puffy as a young cat.

tpcat.gif

[debbiediablo]

This is in regards to when Lizzie's stayed at Truesdale Hospital. Rebello on page 320:

"Nurses who knew Miss [Lizzie] Borden as a patient at Truesdale Hospital two years ago mentioned to their friends, it is said, that she was a woman of decided opinions and will, more masculine in appearance and ways than feminine"

Perhaps, it wasn’t Lizzie’s physical appearance that kept men at arm’s length as much as her masculine ways, opinions and will. Men in the 1800’s were expected to be ‘the head of the household’, which is exactly what Andrew was when it came to money matters. He had control over everything that took place in his house, except his daughters, and especially Lizzie. She may have loved her father dearly, but as we know she was not at all pleased with Andrew’s decision to purchase one half of Abby's half-sisters house on Fourth St. and give it to Abby.


Lizzie's Inquest Testimony, p. 86(43)

Q. Whose father's house?
A. Mrs. Borden's father's house. She had a stepmother and a half sister, Mrs. Borden did, and this house was left to the stepmother and a half sister, if I understood it right, and the house was for sale. The stepmother, Mrs. Oliver Gray, wanted to sell it, and my father brought [sic] out the Widow Gray's share. She did not tell me, and he did not tell me, but some outsiders said that he gave it to her. Put it in her name. I said if he gave that to her, he ought to give us something. Told Mrs. Borden so. She did not care anything about the house herself. She wanted it so this half sister could have a home, because she had married a man that was not doing the best he could, and she thought her sister was having a very hard time and wanted her to have a home. And we always thought she persuaded father to buy it. At any rate he did buy it, and I am quite sure she did persuade him. I said what he did for her people he ought to do for his own children. So he gave us grandfather's house. That was all the trouble we ever had.

If Lizzie took control over her suitors the same way she did her father, then I don’t wonder why she didn’t have any lasting relationships with the male population!

She did not tell me, and he did not tell me, but some outsiders said that he gave it to her.

She couldn't trust him to share the facts with her and Emma.

[twinsrwe]

During some research, I stumbled upon an interesting article regarding the Masculine-Feminine Polarity of human beings (Underlining is mine.):

• Essentially, the masculine side comes from a place of strength. Strength is at the top end of the scale, whereas weakness is at the bottom end. In contrast, the feminine side comes from a place of goodness. Here, goodness is at the top end of the scale, whereas badness or evil is at the bottom end.

• You develop the strength of the masculine side by having a deep belief in the value of your own life, and you develop the goodness of the feminine side by having a deep belief in the value of the life of others.

• The balance between the masculine and feminine side is very important. If you have too much strength for the amount of goodness you have, you can really do a lot of harm to people. Conversely, if you have too much goodness for the amount of strength you have, then you can do harm to yourself, because you tend to "give it all away".

• On a more physical level, if you have a strong masculine side, you have the ability to take control of your own life, and if you have a strong feminine side, you have the ability to let go of trying to control the lives of others. A strong feminine side keeps you from interfering with the choices that others have the right to make for themselves.

• In terms of energy output, the masculine side always has energy available to put into accomplishing things, while the feminine side always has energy available for doing what is right or good.

• How developed one side is compared to the other defines the balance between the masculine and feminine sides. This balance not only determines how you treat others relative to yourself, but it also determines what types of emotions you feel most strongly.

Why do some people have a stronger masculine side while others have a stronger feminine side? It depends to some extent on whether you are a man or a woman, because hormones do play a role, but it also depends a great deal on who you are as a Being. That is, both the masculine and feminine sides depend on what your Inner Self has learned to become.

Sound like our Lizzie? I believe it does.

There is a lot more interesting tidbits in this article, which I believe would be well worth your time to read: http://www.lovesedona.com/02.htm

[twinsrwe]

This is in regards to when Lizzie's stayed at Truesdale Hospital. Rebello on page 320:

"Nurses who knew Miss [Lizzie] Borden as a patient at Truesdale Hospital two years ago mentioned to their friends, it is said, that she was a woman of decided opinions and will, more masculine in appearance and ways than feminine"

Perhaps, it wasn’t Lizzie’s physical appearance that kept men at arm’s length as much as her masculine ways, opinions and will. Men in the 1800’s were expected to be ‘the head of the household’, which is exactly what Andrew was when it came to money matters. He had control over everything that took place in his house, except his daughters, and especially Lizzie. She may have loved her father dearly, but as we know she was not at all pleased with Andrew’s decision to purchase one half of Abby's half-sisters house on Fourth St. and give it to Abby.


Lizzie's Inquest Testimony, p. 86(43)

Q. Whose father's house?
A. Mrs. Borden's father's house. She had a stepmother and a half sister, Mrs. Borden did, and this house was left to the stepmother and a half sister, if I understood it right, and the house was for sale. The stepmother, Mrs. Oliver Gray, wanted to sell it, and my father brought [sic] out the Widow Gray's share. She did not tell me, and he did not tell me, but some outsiders said that he gave it to her. Put it in her name. I said if he gave that to her, he ought to give us something. Told Mrs. Borden so. She did not care anything about the house herself. She wanted it so this half sister could have a home, because she had married a man that was not doing the best he could, and she thought her sister was having a very hard time and wanted her to have a home. And we always thought she persuaded father to buy it. At any rate he did buy it, and I am quite sure she did persuade him. I said what he did for her people he ought to do for his own children. So he gave us grandfather's house. That was all the trouble we ever had.

If Lizzie took control over her suitors the same way she did her father, then I don’t wonder why she didn’t have any lasting relationships with the male population!

She did not tell me, and he did not tell me, but some outsiders said that he gave it to her.

She couldn't trust him to share the facts with her and Emma.

Why would Andrew have felt the need to tell Lizzie, or Emma for that matter, about this transaction? It really wasn't any of their business. Lizzie seems to have forgotten that it was Andrew's money, and he could do with it as he saw fit. He certainly didn't obtain his wealth by running every transaction in his life by Lizzie before he took action.

[debbiediablo]

I agree that he didn't need to run every business transaction past Lizzie or Emma, but this was more than a business transaction. Buying a house, or half a house, for Abby's sister was a personal expenditure as opposed to a moneymaking venture. Hearing it from Andrew would've been better than hearing it in the community. My mother died when I was relatively young, and I have a step-mother whom I love. But if my father had bought a house for her sister, and I heard it from someone other than him I would've felt betrayed. Not so much that he did it, but that he chose not to tell me when people beyond our family were privy to the information.

I also suspect that Lizzie and Emma feared he would undercut them in his will and then not tell them just as he bought Sarah's house and didn't tell them. The locks and separation of rooms in the Borden house seem to be representative of how Andrew dealt with his family in other ways...including his lack of communication. Both my husband and I knew exactly what was in our parents' wills long before they died. And in their final years of life we were kept apprised of what they were doing with their money, where it was invested, etc. Then again, I cannot imagine demanding that my father give me equal treatment as my step-mother.

Your article is written by people who believe in the Sedona energy vortexes. A friend of a friend goes down there once or more a year for a spiritual battery recharge aka harmonic convergence. Experiencing the Red Rocks cure is on my Bucket List.

P.S. Twins, was your avatar 9 KB or were you able to reduce a larger one? If you reduced, would you please leave instructions in a private message. I couldn't reduce and maintain the animation.

[Curryong]

I think Andrew ought to have told his daughters about buying the half-share of the Gray house, if only for the fact that even if he and Abby had bound the Whiteheads and Mrs Gray to secrecy for ever more, he should have guessed that Mrs Gray would tell other members of her family and they would gossip. It would then drift out into the wider community and his 'girls' would get to hear of it. All hell would then break out at home. That is precisely what happened.

It is interesting, that piece of testimony. The dislike of Abby's family getting anything to their advantage, the suspicion over Abby's influence over her father, the contempt of George Whitehead, a working man in a poorly paid factory job, a man who, according to Lizzie 'was not doing the best he could.'

It does make me wonder, when you remember that Andrew said only shortly before the murders, that 'there is trouble at home', whether Lincoln's old theory that one of the Swansea farms was to be sold, was correct. Remember she said that Andrew had become dissatisfied with the running of it, and that he intended to put John Morse in charge for a while and put Abby's name on the deeds to it. The girls had not visited the farm with their parents, where previously the family had summered, since the argument about the Whitehead half-house.

Just perhaps, Lizzie and Emma heard about this latest trashing of their hopes and dreams for the future and there had been arguments. Emma, who was probably non-confrontational, had withdrawn to Fairhaven in injured silence for her first holiday in years, leaving Lizzie to brood at no 92.

As far as Lizzie being 'masculine', perhaps she did strike people a bit that way as she got older, especially if she really did wear rather unfeminine boots and hats. However, you have to remember the times in which she lived. Right up until the Second World War and beyond, young women were counselled in books and magazines to be soft and yielding, not to be strong-willed and strong-minded and express your opinion. They were considered very masculine traits.

Even today, in the 21st century, the new Spanish Queen Letizia, a woman who was a national newscaster before her marriage, is characterised in parts of the Spanish Press as being 'bossy', ruling her family', leading 'her husband, the king, by the nose', simply because she doesn't mind expressing her opinions. Imagine what it must have been like 100 years ago!

[twinsrwe]

Yes, I agree, Debbie. Andrew’s purchase of the house was a personal expenditure, which he did for his WIFE. When Andrew bought out the Widow Gray's share of her house, he deeded it to Abby. So, technically, it was Abby who gave the house to her family. (Maybe this is why Abby received almost twice the number of blows to the head as Andrew).

Testimony given by Sarah B. Whitehead at the Inquest:

Q. What is it in, real estate or personal property?
A. It is in real estate.
Q. Where is it?
A. It is the house I live in.
Q. What is the value of it, about?
A. Well, I think when it was sold it brought $3000.
Q. It already belonged to the three of you?
A. No, my father left half to me, and half to my mother; and my mother sold her part to my sister.
Q. Your sister, Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes sir.
Q. So it belonged to your sister and you?
A. Yes sir. She bought it to keep it in the family.

Right or wrong, Andrew and Abby did not feel the need to tell ‘the girls’ about something that was strictly between the two of them. IMHO: It really wasn’t any of Lizzie’s business what her father did with HIS MONEY. Personally, I think Lizzie was a greedy brat. The fact that Lizzie approached Andrew with such a statement as ‘what he did for her people he ought to do for his own children’, is extremely gutsy on her part. Andrew attempted to smooth Lizzie’s ruffled feathers, by deeding the old family homestead on Ferry Street over to her and Emma. The girls could have graciously accepted the house from their father, and made it their very own home, which would have most likely stopped, or at least lessened, the discord between Abby and the girls. Unfortunately, their greed overpowered their need for peace in the family.

I think Andrew went above and beyond in his attempt to satisfy the women in his family, which obviously failed miserably.

[twinsrwe]

Off Topic:

P.S. Twins, was your avatar 9 KB or were you able to reduce a larger one? If you reduced, would you please leave instructions in a private message. I couldn't reduce and maintain the animation.

I pulled that animated comedy-tragedy gif off of the internet, years ago. The dimensions of this animation are 75 x 61, and it’s size is 1.39 KB.