Where is the bathtub?

[gunter]

Hello all Lizzie Borden fans. I am new to posting but have read a lot of post and books.
My Question is in the book Lizzie Borden Resurrections on page 67 Joseph Hyde I spoke to
Miss Russell about her and Lizzie being in the cellar on the night of the 4th.Miss Russell said
she offered to carry the pail.Miss Lizzie says you bring the lamp, and they went into the cellar.
I said to Miss Russell,Miss Lizzie came down into the cellar alone after that time. Miss Russell
said that could not be.I said O yes,she did:it was about ten or fifteen minutes after you and
she went up stairs. Miss Russell said that must have been while I was taking my bath.My
Question is where did she take a bath up stairs.I thought the cellar was where the place to take
a bath.I just never heard of where the family took a bath.

[Curryong]

Hello Gunther! Welcome, good to see you posting!

Bath tubs in the 19th century were often those tin baths that you sometimes see people bathing in in Westerns and other films. There wasn't a fitted bathroom in the Borden house (one of the things Lizzie probably yearned for) so a tin bath would have been hauled up to Alice's room from the cellar where it was kept.

I've wondered about Alice's bath, myself. Where did she get the hot water from? There was no hot water tap in the house and water had to be boiled on the stove, or, on clothes-washing day, in the stoked-up cellar boiler. Alice, after boiling the water and dragging the bath upstairs, would have had to take hot water up in large jugs. I've got a feeling Alice's 'bath' was just an excuse and she probably just gave herself a wash down that night with cold water and soap!

[irina]

Hi Gunter! Welcome to the forum. You will like it here.

With all the mayhem and difficulty of that day I have to assume Alice washed herself down from a basin. Especially if it only took her ten to fifteen minutes. She just called it a bath. Like Curryong said taking a bath was difficult and hard work. People didn't take as many baths then as they do now. I can't imagine anyone getting a real bath like they did in those days as Curryong explained.

[gunter]

Thank you for the warm Welcome--Curryong,irina

I just never heard of where the Bordens took a bath upstairs.Mybe Lizzie all ready had hers.lol

[twinsrwe]

Welcome to the forum, Gunther. I hope you will enjoy being a member of this fabulous forum.

I agree, with Curryong and Irina. Most likely, Alice took a spit-bath. Please don’t be deceived by the name, it’s not as gross as it sounds. I grew up on a dairy farm and we did not have indoor plumbing until I was in high school. So, we took what my family referred to as a spit-bath, which is simply washing up using a washcloth, soap and a basin of warm water, then towel dry.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... pit%20bath

[gunter]

Thank You twinsrwe So does anyone believe Lizzie had a spit-bath?

[Curryong]

Yes, a wash-down with a basin of water and soap and a towel in her room, whatever it is called! Her hair wouldn't have been washed. That was a separate operation in those days when most women's hair was very long. That took several jugs of hot water, soap, or perhaps one of the primitive patent shampoos of the time, plus a nice warm day to dry the hair in the sun.

[gunter]

Have a another Question.How long was Lizzie hair and didn't she wear it up.

[Curryong]

Her hair must have been quite long as she wore it during the trial in a sort of tight French roll at the back which some of the female reporters thought oldfashioned. It was described as nut-brown in colour and regarded as 'glossy' apparently. There are drawings of Lizzie made by newspaper artists during the trial which may be around on the Internet.

[gunter]

Thank You Curryong you are great on information and in answers.

[Curryong]

You're welcome!

[debbiediablo]

This is my youngest daughter's hair from the back. It's a nut brown that often looks reddish in the sun. Her eyes are turquoise not gray; you can see the fuzzy curliness around her face that often appears in Lizzie's pictures. More so for Lizzie because her hair seems shorter on the top. When I think of Lizzie's hair down I imagine it quite lovely. Although maybe not this long as we're all into growing looooooooong hair. Even me in my 60s.

hair.JPG

Lol...I don't know why this is sideways or how to make it stand up straight....but you get the idea...

[twinsrwe]

Thank You twinsrwe So does anyone believe Lizzie had a spit-bath?

You're welcome, Gunter.

[Curryong]

Yes, I think Lizzie's her would look like your daughter's, debbie. It's a lovely colour. Has she still got it at that length? I haven't had long hair myself since my twenties as I am no good at styling long hair.

[debbiediablo]

That was taken a month ago, so yes. My oldest has long blonde hair, and my avatar is me with long silver hair. I had short hair most of my life but decided to pursue an eccentric hairstyle in my dotage.

[twinsrwe]

I also wore short hair for years, but now that I am older, I have grown my hair out to shoulder length. I find my longer hair is a lot easier to style and take care of.

BTW, Debbie, your daughter's hair is absolutely beautiful!!!

[irina]

Another thing to remember is that people didn't bathe in any form as often as we do today. I can see someone like Alice taking a spit bath every night but I can see many others not having any form of bath. Baths are a great luxury of our modern age.

I wonder a lot about Lizzie's hair which was noted to be perfect after the murders. Did she wear it up on that day? Are the pictures with the curls in front a special style for the photos? If her hair was pinned up when Andrew was killed, I would think it would have come loose due to the activity. Hair pins weren't very good back then.

Lizzie's hair has always been described as a shade of brown though some have said red. My hair is brown indoors and red in the sun. I use an auburn colored dye in middle age. Some site out there implied they had a clipping of Lizzie's hair and it was red but that could happen with age. I felt the site was not OK either.

Debbie, your daughter does have lovely hair.

[debbiediablo]

There are times in the sun or maybe due to mineral content of the water she's using to shampoo that my daughter's hair looks true red. Not Ronald McDonald red but auburn with gold highlights. That's how I envision Lizzie's hair. A jowl reduction and some eyebrow control would leave Lizzie and beautiful woman in a less than classic sense. Her eyes are extraordinary and her lips are wide and full. She has unique bone structure. Of course we're clueless about her teeth...all three of them.

[irina]

Hilarious! Teeth~~all three of them!

[Aamartin]

Do we know if the Bordens prepared their own baths or had Bridget help?

Alice did not have a maid or other help in her home that we know of, perhaps she did drag the tub upstairs and took a proper bath. She was accustomed to fending for herself

[irina]

My thought is it would have taken a good fire to heat water and a lot of work when the day had turned into mayhem. Don't think anything could get me to believe Alice or anyone took a tub bath that night.

[Curryong]

All three teeth glinting gold!
I think that in Alice's home, as she didnt have anyone else to worry about, she would have just bathed in front of the kitchen fire!
I can imagine 'the girls' and Bridget toiling up the stairs with hot water when the sisters needed a bath in their rooms a couple of times a week. Perhaps Lizzie took first turn in the bath, then Emma. Some families did that.

I have read of very large families (in England and Australia) with no bathroom, having a turn one after the other on bath night. Once a week, kids first. Imagine being the sixth one in! I cant imagine why Andrew wouldnt have hot running water or proper, private WC's in his home, upstairs and down. With all his money what they had was just so primitive. Walking about with slop pails, no showers (which were in some homes by the 1860's) no opportunity for Bridget to wash herself down properly in privacy, it's all just foul!

[irina]

People in America shared bath water too, long into the last century. My mom always said true luxuries were a good bath and a good bed, neither of which she grew up with. The reason her family didn't have these things was not because of poverty. It was because in the small western town nobody had much and everyone lived that way.

[Curryong]

Agree, that's just the way things were, in England too, until after the second world war in some rural villages. Not for people on Andrew's level of wealth, however. Just think of the things Lizzie and Emma missed out on!
It was a home they were ashamed to invite friends from the Hill and Church to, because of Andrew's unsociability and probably Abby's homely social ineptness, neither girl experienced dinner parties, musical or card evenings in their home with invited guests.
Neither was given a coming-out dance or became a deb, (which even the poverty-stricken Wallis Simpson, the future Duchess of Windsor, had in Baltimore.) A ball was an extremely rare occurence.
The family never took trips together, except in the past to the farm, and they were all miserable together when, if Andrew had been a bit more flexible, they could have been happy and less isolated. They had a measly allowance too, and Abby was even worse off!

[PossumPie]

I am 50 and I've threatened my wife many times that as I approach retirement age, I'm letting my hair grow and braiding it like Willie Nelson. I will be this scruffy old man with long grey hair and a bandanna. Not the picture you get when you think of a nurse!!! I love to keep people guessing.

Lizzie did some very peculiar things after the murders. She burned the dress, she was determined to get alone and finally succeeded, even though she wasn't supposed to. Not evidence of guilt, but adds to the suspicion.

[debbiediablo]

People in America shared bath water too, long into the last century. My mom always said true luxuries were a good bath and a good bed, neither of which she grew up with. The reason her family didn't have these things was not because of poverty. It was because in the small western town nobody had much and everyone lived that way.

My Dad was the middle child of seven on an Iowa farm during the Great Depression. All children washed their feet every night and their entire bodies on Saturday night. Their house set up from a creek so after hot summer days the kids often cooled down and cleaned up at night in the swimming hole. But when the weather turned unfit for aqua sports, my Grandma Jennie would heat a washtub full of water for foot washing from the water tank on the back of the wood cook stove. Same water for all seven. First come, first served. They scrambled to be early in line. Early Saturday night the whole family heated and carried water to what looked like a cross between a washtub and a horse trough. That water was heated outside and carried in from a cauldron. Everyone got to luxuriate in their own water, but getting seven kids and two adults through hot baths wasn't for slackers. I can remember not having an indoor toilet or a telephone as a very young child along with my Mom cooking on a wood stove and carrying water by the bucket about 150 feet from the pump house. This was 60+ years after the Borden murders. About 1954 we became the first rural family anywhere in the area to get indoor running water and an indoor bathroom with toilet, tub and sink. It saved my Mom a lot of labor, but killing for the pleasure of pleasure of using it seems extremely extreme! Especially with a maid to do the water lugging.

[Curryong]

It must have been fun going in the water-hole after a very hot day, part swim, part bath. You're right though. The women were saved a lot of labour once a bathroom was installed. It was the same sort of thing in Australia and there were still houses with outside toilets, referred to as 'dunnies', until the 1960's in many properties.

I've got a feeling that it wasn't lack of a bathroom or proper WC that was the main irritation in Lizzie's life, however! (Wouldn't the sisters have made an exception and helped carry the water for a bath, rather than allow Bridget to do it as she wasn't really allowed upstairs? Perhaps she carried it to the top of the front stairs and the 'girls' then took over?

[NESpinster]

Welcome to the forum, Gunther. I hope you will enjoy being a member of this fabulous forum.

I agree, with Curryong and Irina. Most likely, Alice took a spit-bath. Please don’t be deceived by the name, it’s not as gross as it sounds. I grew up on a dairy farm and we did not have indoor plumbing until I was in high school. So, we took what my family referred to as a spit-bath, which is simply washing up using a washcloth, soap and a basin of warm water, then towel dry.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... pit%20bath

Funny that I just saw this! My mom usually takes luxurious bubble baths in the tub (I take showers generally, is that TMI?? ), but the other night she was tired but still felt she needed to "clean up" before going to bed. I didn't know what it was called--duh!--but she said later she just ran warm water in the sink, added some soap, a clean washcloth and viola! Nice and clean. She said that's how her family bathed when she was a girl. (She was born in 1927 in a fairly rural area, so no proper bathroom--they even had to use an outhouse!!! ) She didn't have to bother with her hair, she wears it short and has a weekly appointment to get it trimmed, washed, dried etc.

My dad's family wasn't so lucky. They had an old iron tub and a large family--parents plus 5 kids. They bathed once a week and yes, they had to take turns in the same water---water which got colder and dirtier with each person!!! I think I would have just skipped bathing altogether and let the neighbors smell me coming from miles away!

[Curryong]

Yes, I agree. Thank heavens for modern plumbing! You can imagine some of these family baths having a layer of scum on the top by the time they'd finished!

In the Third World, of course, it's still happening. A friend of my daughter and her family takes holidays each year in a remote part of Cambodia. They stay at a house which doesn't have modern plumbing and they have a cold shower arrangement fixed up outside. As it is quite humid in that part of Asia that's not too bad.

However, the local school, which has been operating for ten years, didn't have a supply of fresh water until this year. The kids would gather water to drink at the nearby river and the schoolmistress would boil it all up. (I'm sure they just drank from the river on hot days, anyway.) They now, thanks to fundraising in Australia, hve a fresh, clean supply of water.

[twinsrwe]

... I think I would have just skipped bathing altogether and let the neighbors smell me coming from miles away!

Oh my goodness, NESpinster, this is too funny!!!

[twinsrwe]

As I previously mentioned in this thread, I grew up on a dairy farm and we did not have indoor plumbing until I was in high school. My parents house was built over an underground spring-fed river. A well was dug, and a hand pump installed. The pump was located in the back yard, about 30 to 40 feet from the house, and we (usually me) had to carry all of our water in a bucket, from the pump into the house. (Let me tell you, this was a real ‘treat’ during the winter months!)

Well Water Pump.jpg

Our drinking water was put in a large container, and a dipper was used to drink from. (Everybody drank from the same dipper! BTW: There is nothing better tasting than spring-fed well water – it is to die for!!!) The water for bathing was heated in a water kettle on top of a wood-coal burning 'Warm Morning' stove. Individual bathes were taken once a week, on Sunday mornings, before we went to church. (We did not share bath water.)

Warm Morning wood-coal burner (Vandergrift) in Pittsburgh.jpg

We used a two-setter outhouse during the day hours. (Believe me, this was even a bigger ‘treat’ during the winter months, than carrying water in from the pump!!! One thing is for sure, no one had to wait very long for someone else to finish using it!) However, during the night hours, we had a chamber pot, which everyone used before going to bed and upon waking in the morning. Later in the morning, the chamber pot was taken to the outhouse and disposed of there. (My siblings and I also attended a one-room school house, which did not have indoor plumbing, either! Although, those outhouses were one-setters.)

newouthousemar.jpg

Growing up in the manner in which I did, I have always felt that the Borden ‘girls’ did not have it so bad. At least they didn’t have to carry all of their water in from a pump outside of the house, since they had a faucet in the sink room by the kitchen. They also did not have to go outside and use an outhouse, since they had a water closet in the basement.

The LIZZIE BORDEN QUARTERLY
Volume I, Number 1

‘In 1892, the only plumbing consisted of a faucet in the sink room near the kitchen on the first floor, and another tap and a toilet known as a "water closet" in the cellar.’

http://archive.org/stream/lizziebordenq ... l_djvu.txt

[debbiediablo]

I can remember outhouse, bathing in a washtub (I was a young child) and carrying water from the pump house. We got indoor plumbing in about 1955 and were the envy of our farm community. Others followed in the next few years. My husband attended country school for his first years of education, but my kindergarten days in 1956 were spent in the newly consolidated school district. No walking for me. My Dad always talked about how he and his family of six siblings were required to wash their feet every evening with a full bath on Saturday night. There was no procrastination; the foot water was also reused so slacker #7 suffered some very natural consequences... Somehow I cannot see the Borden sister scrapping over washing of feet.

[Curryong]

It all looks cute and quaint doesn't it as we're discussing it now? However, a different thing living it, as you have described, twins and debbie. No, I don't suppose the Borden girls did have it so bad in comparison, but, of course, Lizzie had probably been at hotels and in friends' houses with their lovely hot water taps and claw foot baths. I do think we forget in the western world that getting water from a well or pump and carrying it home, sometimes a long way, then boiling it up if hot water was needed, was what our ancestors were used to, and this continued into the mid-20th century in a lot of cases.

[dalcanton]

Am I reading too much into this? Why did Lizzie insist on carrying the pail? Evidence perhaps?

[dalcanton]

I can't imagine how anyone could use the same bathwater after someone else. That's such an obvious lack of hygiene! You're defeating the whole purpose of a bath.

[Curryong]

Yes, I agree, especially if one or two of the males in a household followed a rather grubby occupation! I know that miners in the valleys of Wales used to have a hot bath every day (in a tin bath in front of the fire) prepared by their wives or mothers because their skin was so black from their work. What a pleasure for the females, and how they must have enjoyed it when mining companies started building shower blocks after the Second World War!

So many threads on here discuss THE PAIL, perhaps we ought to go looking and dig an interesting one up from the vaults that we could put our own perspectives on? Just a suggestion!